Bad news for the FN 57 Handgun!

[Rugster]

I was watching TV and fileing a report yesterday when something grabbed my attention.I heard one of the NBC stations up north or out west(We have both East and West NBS,ABC,CBS and Fox)Im pretty sure this was California.The news anchor man stated to watch news channel # for information on a Armor pierceing Handgun that the public could easily obtain and something had to be done about it.I had to hear this so I watched,the Chief of Police had a FN 57 Handgun.He hung up a bullet resistant vest and shot it at 25 ft.Well it did penetrate the Kevlar(Which rarely Ive seen a 9MM do).Now they had a lady their to tell the public what this gun could do in the hands of a terrorist and was asking people to join her alliance against this gun,and even had a address displayed where you could donate money to help get this terrible weapon out of the hands of Americans.She was given a big pat on her back from the news anchor man for her efforts on getting this gun out of circulation.It was stated no one outside of LE and Military purposes did this gun fit in.I hate it when Police Chiefs chime in and speak for all of their Officers.So a new battle begins.

[pickenup]

I wonder what kind of bullet they were using.

The battle......continues......

[Bigtire]

It was just a matter of time. I'd have like to stood next to him and fired a Thompson Contender in 30-06 and blown a fist sized hole in the vest just to get their reactions. :D

Heck, I'll bet a 7.62x25 would have penetrated the vest too.

[MVP]

I wonder what kind of bullet they were using.

The battle......continues......
Or if it was an up to date vest?

[richbug]

Or if it was an up to date vest?
with standard ball ammo the 5.7 will poke through 48 layers of Kevlar. I am pretty sure a 3A vest is only 20. The local shop had one on the shelf for $800 with 3 20 round mags.... but ammo is pricey.

[richbug]

Also the gun looks and feels like a toy. Less than 2 pounds loaded, largely plastic, feels more like tupperware than glock. Uses a roller locking system similar to a CZ-52 I think.

[MVP]

I was under the imprerssion that the FN FiveSeven was only available to law enforcement or military for that reason(the ability to penetrate kevlar).
What changed that they offer it to the public now?

[richbug]

That was FN's policy, but I think it applied to AP ammo. He couldn't get AP ammo unless it was for LEO's. To top it off the ball ammo has hollow point tips, much like a match HP bullet. I expect that they would still blow up nicely after those 20 layers of kevlar.

[MVP]

I better buy one before they get banned and the price goes the way of the Steyr AUG did :rolleyes: ;)

[geezler]

If i were FN i would have my attorneys file suit against all involved.

[Rugster]

MVP,you are probably right about the price going up on the Handguns,but believe me they are already priced out of reason.Plus the ammo is in short supply as of now and its also extremely expensive.






Best!!

[SaxonPig]

It has been my understanding that the ATF bans pistol ammo that can penetrate the typical vest. That's what happened to all that cheap imported 7.62X39 ammo back in the late 1980s. Some outfit made a prototype handgun in that caliber and the ATF banned the sale of the ammo. Fine when there were only rifles but when they made a pistol the feds banned it.

Same story with the PMC tubular ammo. Pulled because it sliced through a vest.

If the 5.7FN ammo will punch a vest, I would think the ATF would ban the ammo (not the gun, just the ammo).

Now, having said that, it is a poorly kept secret that 130 hardball from the .38 Super will defeat a vest. I have not tried it but a friend who used to sell guns and police equipment assured me that the Super will penetrate the typical vest. He said he demonstrated this fact to a vest salesman one day on his indoor range when the rep insisted that his product would stop ANY handgun caliber.

If this is true I don't know why hardball ammo for the .38 Super hasn't been banned for civilian sales.

[MVP]

It has been my understanding that the ATF bans pistol ammo that can penetrate the typical vest...banned it.

Same story with the PMC tubular ammo. Pulled because it sliced through a vest.

I wondered what ever happened to the PMC Tubular Type ammo. I used to get that stuff in the early nineties for my 44spl and loved it because it was by far the most accurate through my handgun.

[Pabooger]

Most vests can be penetrated with an arrow from a compound bow, are they going to outlaw bows now as well!

[bobtom115]

bonjour tout le monde. Nice to meet you all. :)


pret personnel (http://simulationpretpersonnel.com)

[bcj1755]

Well, when are they going to ban the Tokarev? The 7.62x25 will go through even the trauma plate on a Level III vest. I just love it when the "fair and impartial" media decide to help further the anti-gun agenda of the liberals by conducting some more brainwashing of the sheeple:rolleyes:

[gdmoody]

They can have my 5.7X28 when they pry it from..... oh you know the saying.

I tested several different rounds a few years ago on a bullet proof vest and trauma plate. The 7.62 X 25 went right through it without any problem along with the 30 carbine. It did stop .40, .45, and 9mm. My son, the cop, said "I hope the bad guys don't find out about these guns" talking about the CZ 52.

MVP, they have been offered to the public for at least a year, because that is about when I bought mine.

They might not be able to pry the FiveseveN, but I will sell it for - -ah - - let's say - - - - $4000, and you can have my PS 90 for S10K .:D:D

[Bancato]

they have been offered to the public for at least a year, because that is about when I bought mine.
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[Mr. Nameless]

I wonder if I could get one for "work." :D

[LurpyGeek]

Another facet of the story is that it is a bullet resistant vest. People have the misconception in their minds that what is commonly called a bullet proof vest will stop all bullets. Thus anything that is outside of that "rule" must be a horrible and evil weapon. There is no such thing as a true bullet proof vest.

[Islandboy]

Doesn't the kevlar degrade rather quickly on those vests? I remember hearing of a 5 yr life with reasonable exposire to sunshine, wear and rear, even sweat.

[delta13soultaker]

Well, when are they going to ban the Tokarev? The 7.62x25 will go through even the trauma plate on a Level III vest. I just love it when the "fair and impartial" media decide to help further the anti-gun agenda of the liberals by conducting some more brainwashing of the sheeple:rolleyes:

"Trauma plates" are wimpy little plates in Level II armor. Those are only meant to spread out some of the impact. Actually stopping the bullet is still the kevlar's job.

The plates for Level III armor are SAPI plates. Some people call them "trauma plates" but it's a misuse of the different plates. What is the differences? A trauma plate weights a few ounces; a SAPI weights about 7 to 10 pounds. One Level III plate weights more than some police vests. A trauma plate won't stop anything because it isn't meant to. A SAPI will stop multiple simultaneous 7.62mm NATO rounds.

Some body armor distributes misuse the "trauma plate" term with ballistic plate or SAPI plate because "trauma plate" is more sell-able. It is however a deceiving use of the nomenclatures. It's like hearing a man call a shotgun a rifle; they are not the same, although they are similar.

7.62x25 will penetrate those police trauma plates.

It will not penetrate a Level III SAPI plate though. Not even close. I have two on my bedroom floor right now. Fly down here and shoot one and if that 7.62x25 goes through it, you can ride off on my motorcycle. If it don't, you owe me $400. Bring cash. :D

[bcj1755]

"Trauma plates" are wimpy little plates in Level II armor. Those are only meant to spread out some of the impact. Actually stopping the bullet is still the kevlar's job.

The plates for Level III armor are SAPI plates. Some people call them "trauma plates" but it's a misuse of the different plates. What is the differences? A trauma plate weights a few ounces; a SAPI weights about 7 to 10 pounds. One Level III plate weights more than some police vests. A trauma plate won't stop anything because it isn't meant to. A SAPI will stop multiple simultaneous 7.62mm NATO rounds.

Some body armor distributes misuse the "trauma plate" term with ballistic plate or SAPI plate because "trauma plate" is more sell-able. It is however a deceiving use of the nomenclatures. It's like hearing a man call a shotgun a rifle; they are not the same, although they are similar.

7.62x25 will penetrate those police trauma plates.

It will not penetrate a Level III SAPI plate though. Not even close. I have two on my bedroom floor right now. Fly down here and shoot one and if that 7.62x25 goes through it, you can ride off on my motorcycle. If it don't, you owe me $400. Bring cash. :D

My info came from local police officers. One department issues what they call "Level II" vests to patrol officers and "Level III" to SWAT. They said the difference is "Level II" is just the Kevalr vest while the "Level III" has "trauma plates" in it (these are the terms they used, possibly an instance of what you call misuse of terminology by distributors). Another department here issues "Level III" with the plates to patrol officers. Both of which were described to me as "an 8 lb sweater." Of course, there is a huge difference between the "soft" armor used by police and the "hard" armor used by the military. Given the choice, I'd much rather have milspec armor;)

[delta13soultaker]

Level II sounds right for patrol. It can have plates though. They weight a few ounces.

Level III for SWAT...that's same level as most military. That is the armor you put SAPI plates in. A Level III weights up to 25 lbs before you put on ammo, water, radio, batteries, tools, med kit, and a bag of M&M's.

The "8 pound" vest...that sounds like the IIIA...it's in between the II and III. That's the armor cops keep in the trunk. It's too big to wear under a uniform usually, but it'll stop any handgun. Won't stop any rifles though. Put it on if things get fuzzy. Those have the "trauma plates" too...like the Level II. Those plates used to be steel, then alloys and cheap titanium came along...now there are polymer plates that work even better....remember their job is spread out the impact, not stop projectiles like a SAPI.

Several years ago I got detailed to be pimped out as a body guard for a hot minute. Before that I'd called trauma plates and SAPI's the same interchangeable things.

But I got issued concealable armor, like Level II, for civilian clothed details or wear under uniform etc, and realized the differences. The trauma plate turned out to be this cute little plate that wouldn't protect you from a blind guy playing darts.:)

I've used the stuff since then, and met the guys in the proponent who design these things. Earlier this month I met one of the people who designed MOLLE for example. I guess that's why I'm kind of quick to offer information about correctly using nomenclature; tell those dudes, in any industry, the wrong word and you get delivered a simple idea with 9,000 extra cool-guy doohickies on it when all you wanted was the same thing with just an extra hole for an antenna because your guys use the other hole for a water tube, or you wanted a co-op visible laser with the IR weapon laser and what you end up with is all that plus an IR spotlight that's not eye safe for 200 meters and it detaches so you can use the visible laser hand held at a meeting, or a pair of 20 lb digital binos. You have to say what you mean.

Soft vs hard armor. Only one type stops a rifle. If you want the best, buy Point Blank, either police or mil. It's the same technology, just applied for different conditions.

Keep in mind body armor just keeps you alive longer if your in the 10% of people that can be saved if they get to a trauma medical care. The other 90% are either going to live or die regardless. The reason I say that is because body armor is kind of like 4 wheel drive....if you drive like you have 4 wheel drive you'll get stuck, but if you drive like you have 2 wheel drive you'll be okay. If you approach things like you're armored, even if it is Level III or IV, it's only a matter of time before you get to see if you're in the 10%.

A helmet will save your life about 10 times before a ballistic vest will, in my opinion.

[bcj1755]

Level II sounds right for patrol. It can have plates though. They weight a few ounces.

Level III for SWAT...that's same level as most military. That is the armor you put SAPI plates in. A Level III weights up to 25 lbs before you put on ammo, water, radio, batteries, tools, med kit, and a bag of M&M's.

The "8 pound" vest...that sounds like the IIIA...it's in between the II and III. That's the armor cops keep in the trunk. It's too big to wear under a uniform usually, but it'll stop any handgun. Won't stop any rifles though. Put it on if things get fuzzy. Those have the "trauma plates" too...like the Level II. Those plates used to be steel, then alloys and cheap titanium came along...now there are polymer plates that work even better....remember their job is spread out the impact, not stop projectiles like a SAPI.

Several years ago I got detailed to be pimped out as a body guard for a hot minute. Before that I'd called trauma plates and SAPI's the same interchangeable things.

But I got issued concealable armor, like Level II, for civilian clothed details or wear under uniform etc, and realized the differences. The trauma plate turned out to be this cute little plate that wouldn't protect you from a blind guy playing darts.:)

I've used the stuff since then, and met the guys in the proponent who design these things. Earlier this month I met one of the people who designed MOLLE for example. I guess that's why I'm kind of quick to offer information about correctly using nomenclature; tell those dudes, in any industry, the wrong word and you get delivered a simple idea with 9,000 extra cool-guy doohickies on it when all you wanted was the same thing with just an extra hole for an antenna because your guys use the other hole for a water tube, or you wanted a co-op visible laser with the IR weapon laser and what you end up with is all that plus an IR spotlight that's not eye safe for 200 meters and it detaches so you can use the visible laser hand held at a meeting, or a pair of 20 lb digital binos. You have to say what you mean.

Soft vs hard armor. Only one type stops a rifle. If you want the best, buy Point Blank, either police or mil. It's the same technology, just applied for different conditions.

Keep in mind body armor just keeps you alive longer if your in the 10% of people that can be saved if they get to a trauma medical care. The other 90% are either going to live or die regardless. The reason I say that is because body armor is kind of like 4 wheel drive....if you drive like you have 4 wheel drive you'll get stuck, but if you drive like you have 2 wheel drive you'll be okay. If you approach things like you're armored, even if it is Level III or IV, it's only a matter of time before you get to see if you're in the 10%.

A helmet will save your life about 10 times before a ballistic vest will, in my opinion.

Yeah, apparently they were using the terms interchangably. Charlotte-Mecklinburg PD patrol officers wear what is apparently the IIIA. It's soft armor but it does have plates. The officer let me tap my knuckles on his vest and there was a plate. He said that he's seen tests that a 7.62x25 will indeed go through the vest he was wearing.

[delta13soultaker]

Best way to tell is to pick it up. If it weights like 20+ lbs...that's III. Or lift a plate out...they're thick like 1", weight 4-5 lbs, and if you smack it on the floor it sounds like a dinner place.

If it's lighter, less than 10...it's IIIA. The plates are usually rubber coated alloy, very lightweight.

A II will fit under your shirt. The plate will be about the width and height of a novel and weight next to nothing on a new one.

The vest on a III only stops 9mm SMG/frag. It's the plates that stop rifle fire.

Both a III and IIIA will be soft; without the plates in they feel like a flak-vest.

I suppose you could drop a set of SAPI plates in some IIIA vests and get better protection.

If he said a 9x25mm will defeat his vest, I believe him if it's a IIIA.

He would know because the SAPI's usually have a stamp on them that says 7.62mm NATO AP or 7.62mm M30 or similar very big in back. Some say IV on them. Expect to see as the Army keeps upgrading armor to keep up, all that stuff, that we don't give to allies, will eventually find its way to police and such in the US. It costs 2 or 3 times what police armor costs, but eventually the patrol cop will have what SWAT used to have.

Body armor is becoming proliferate all over the world. It's getting better and cheaper. It's going to change the way firearms are designed and used at some point. A new day is coming.

[durty305]

I would like to put my two cents in I own the FNH 5.7x27mm and will tell you that it will not pierece a kevlar helmet or vest. Not with the ammo that the public can obtain. Now that being said they make a round that will go threw the above mentioned but its not legal for your average citizen to buy. unless you are law enforcement or military you won't be shooting threw bulletproof jackets because you won't be able to buy the ammo. Its just another way for the gun grabbing liberals to try and ban another type of firearm, and take our rights to own firearms away.

[hogger129]

I was watching TV and fileing a report yesterday when something grabbed my attention.I heard one of the NBC stations up north or out west(We have both East and West NBS,ABC,CBS and Fox)Im pretty sure this was California.The news anchor man stated to watch news channel # for information on a Armor pierceing Handgun that the public could easily obtain and something had to be done about it.I had to hear this so I watched,the Chief of Police had a FN 57 Handgun.He hung up a bullet resistant vest and shot it at 25 ft.Well it did penetrate the Kevlar(Which rarely Ive seen a 9MM do).Now they had a lady their to tell the public what this gun could do in the hands of a terrorist and was asking people to join her alliance against this gun,and even had a address displayed where you could donate money to help get this terrible weapon out of the hands of Americans.She was given a big pat on her back from the news anchor man for her efforts on getting this gun out of circulation.It was stated no one outside of LE and Military purposes did this gun fit in.I hate it when Police Chiefs chime in and speak for all of their Officers.So a new battle begins.

"Armor Piercing Handgun..."

There is no armor-piercing 'handgun.' Because a handgun isn't fired from another handgun.

Now the ammo could be armor-piercing, but to my knowledge, it was illegal to sell or have armor-piercing ammo unless you were LE.

I call BS on this one and the fact that it's in California makes me say it's BS more. I bet you they shot a worn out vest, used the media to blow it way out of proportion and now are using it to further disarmament of the populace. I want to see that same gun with that same ammo, fired at a brand new vest.

Any gun is as 'dangerous' as the FN Five-Seven if it has armor piercing ammunition in it.

And ballistic vests aren't "bulletproof" as many seem to believe. They are bullet 'resistant.' I thought they would usually stop more of the common rounds like 9x19, .40 S&W, .45ACP, .44, .357...

[Slabsides]

Armor piercing rounds from several common handguns can defeat "bullet proof" vests. Yes, it's illegal, but if someone is hell bent on causing mayhem, do you think they care? If they attack a cop wearing a vest, they have just committed the ultimate sin.....does it matter or do they even care if a legal gun/ammo or illegal gun/ammo was used?

More brainless attacks on a piece of machinery.

One thing is for sure, this will boost sales and increase values for the five-seven. FN can't buy that kind of publicity.

[muddober]

I don't know the first thing about body armor but I have an old vest that a friend gave me from years ago that had no plates in and when shot hanging over a chair back up by a very large phone book my 44 mag load dragged a fist size part of the vest clear through the phone book. The bullet did not pass through the vest. Some years latter I took my FN 57 with 27 grain copper jacketed aluminum bullets and it shot through both side like it was nothing. Those same 27 grainer's shot through an old car steel bumper every time. The 40 grain bullets travel 300 to 400 FPS slower and I doubt they would perform as well penetration wise. I don't have any 40 grain or I would have tried it.

Ron

[gdmoody]

I know this an old thread but I will comment. Several weeks ago, my son brought over a couple of "trauma plates" from some of his older vests. One was a steel plate and the other one was made of layers of Kevlar. We went out in the back yard and shot them with several guns at a range of 15 yards. The results were: neither would stop the .44 Mag, huge holes in both plates. Both plates stopped the ,45ACP .40S&W, 9mm, 38Spec. The only other round to make it through one of the plates was the 5.7X28, the steel plate stopped it cold but it did penetrate the Kevlar "plate/pad". There were small pieces of the copper jacket on the front side of the Kevlar but I guess the lead(?) core made it through and was hanging on the back side of it. If the bullet had to go through another layer or two it would not have made it.

[cobra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

Sometimes I am proud to be belgium...

[Jim K]

Does anyone need to spell out that the corrupt police chief provided the AP ammo for the show and probably was well paid by the gun ban lobby? And that the corrupt "news" organization received money also? And that the "vest" may have been a phony also, stuffed with rags? Come on folks, those "demonstrations" are staged and everyone involved has one goal, to disarm YOU and everyone else.

Jim