A 9mm question...

[glocknut]

Yes, i know this has probably been discussed a million times before etc etc etc...but here it is anyway.

My personal favorite in 9mm is the winchester 115gr silvertip. But it is somewhat hard to find arround here.
The local gunshop is selling Remington 124gr Golden Sabre
by the 1/2 case "500 rds" and i don't know anything about that particular round?

I'm not wanting to stock the cheap plinking ammo, but rather the good stuff... the stuff that would actually be used in a defense situation. I've got plenty of the plinking ammo already....

Opinions on the golden sabre or other possible 9mm candidates would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

mike
gn

[Deputy Dawg]

One word.........( Corbon ) 115 grain.Ok that was 3 words.

[southernshooter]

Yea the Golden Sabre good but, Here is the good stuff Mike
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6530994&aa=%20%20%202%20Boxes%20Winchester%20Black%20Talons%209mm%2040%20rounds

[ironsight65]

What's the deal with the Black Talons anyway?
Why were they banned?

[southernshooter]

They wern't banned

[Crpdeth]

Iron

From the best of my memory (getting worse every day) Winchester simply stopped production of the Talons on their own after feeling pressure by the tree hugger crowd, stateing that "The petlals expanded and cut rather than tear through vitals" makeing surgery more complicated and recovery less possible or some crap like that.

Crpdeth

[southernshooter]

People were saying the Teflon coating on it went thru bullet proof vest. Anybody like us knew it was easier on the barrel and fed better.
And then they said the talons were dangeress for surgenons it could cut thru their gloves and cut them. What doctor is going to stick his finger in a bullet wound? It is great ammo if it wasn't dang near extinct

[VegasTech702]

I prefer to use a 124gr bullet in my self defense rounds. That being said I have had very good results from the Magtech and Speer Gold Dot +P rounds. I am currently carrying the Speer stuff in my 9 and .380

[Deputy Dawg]

Iron

From the best of my memory (getting worse every day) Winchester simply stopped production of the Talons on their own after feeling pressure by the tree hugger crowd, stateing that "The petlals expanded and cut rather than tear through vitals" makeing surgery more complicated and recovery less possible or some crap like that.

Crpdeth

That was there story allright.:mad: :mad: ,instead of faceing lawsuits they gave in to the anti-gun crowd.They think that if it is black it must be EVIL, just like thoses EVIL Black Rifles.

[ironsight65]

Iron

From the best of my memory (getting worse every day) Winchester simply stopped production of the Talons on their own after feeling pressure by the tree hugger crowd, stateing that "The petlals expanded and cut rather than tear through vitals" makeing surgery more complicated and recovery less possible or some crap like that.

Crpdeth

Thank Crpdeth, I guess I got the liberal media explanation from what I remember. Hearing crap like "cop killer bullets". Typical.

How dare someone make a bullet that does what it is designed to do
very effectively. Obviously we need "kinder, gentler" bullets.

[southernshooter]

Hornady's Tap is really a good bullet and affordable

[Crpdeth]

Thank Crpdeth, I guess I got the liberal media explanation from what I remember. Hearing crap like "cop killer bullets". Typical.

How dare someone make a bullet that does what it is designed to do
very effectively. Obviously we need "kinder, gentler" bullets.

Exactly :D

[delta13soultaker]

124 grain Golden Saber is decent ammo (Avoid the 147 grain regardless of brand.)

Cor-Bon 115 grain +P 9mm has a reputation that can't be argued with. Just make sure your weapon is newer, like 1985+ for that stuff.

I keep mine loaded with 124 grain Hornady XTP or 124 grain Federal Hydra-Shock. When I get a hold on more Cor-Bon the other stuff will go in the practice ammo box though :D

Southern, I took a look at Hornady TAP and it does look like some good ammo. I like Hornady anyway. The 200 grain .45 acp +P TAP looks like a real dooozy....pushing a 200 grain .45 hollowpoint at almost the speed of a lighter 9mm round...that's should have great terminal effect.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Well I agree with half of your statement Delta, but not so sure about the 45acp stuff.

I could be way off base on this and my memory isn`t the best. But my understanding of the invention of "TAP" was different than this HV 45acp.


My belief was TAP was brought to market for low flash/low recoil tactical use, which then spilled over into the commercial market for recoil sensitive hunters, you know, lower powered 30-06 with the same 100 yard impact (simply one example) as full power.

HiVel 45acp is usally negated to subgun use, but in the current market the subgun has turned to the cut down M4`s and HK`s using .223.

Interesting close combat/entry choice and some have moved back to the .308`s in this same application. Accidents are not far off as some get braver...........


LTS

[delta13soultaker]

Which half? lol

I've used Hornady quite a while, but never took a close look at TAP. Reading into it's figures from a five inch barrel (200 grain .45 +P) caught my attention. Then again .45 230 grain ball does pretty good anyways:D

[LIKTOSHOOT]

My belief is a old one, big and slow. Although the younger generation seems to believe the need for speed, there lies a problem in handgun caliber ammunition (and this was brought about by none other than the 9mm) and it is simple to use the rifle ammunition as a model. Two questions for you based on hunting.

What do we want a bullet to do when hunting?(rifle)
On paper what do we want a defense bullet to do?(pistol)


LTS

[delta13soultaker]

:D LTS, I know what you're saying and I know where you're coming from...although partly I disagree.

I agree on big and slow...because a handgun bullet makes it's money by crushing a wound channel through tissue. The deeper and wider the better. The temorary wound channel from a handgun doesn't stretch fast enough to cause damage to tissue (like a rifle bullet will do to tissue). The difference in terminal ballistics is less between similar calibers than people often believe I think...thanks to ammo advertizements and gun rags (hype hype hype). Energy transfer and all that in handgun bullets is hardly much to get rapped up in...there's not enough extra energy after crushing a wound channel to do much else!

I disagree on the "need for speed". Long long long before the 9mm became popular on this side of the pond, handgunners were looking for more speed and thus the .357 mag, .44 rem mag....

For old timers, the 9mm is the source of all evil regarding ill advised handgun bullet performance myths etc etc....but I'm here to tell ya we were plenty misguided enough without 'ol 9mm Luger:D

[LIKTOSHOOT]

What you will notice though is the very quite removal of the .357 from the law enforcement category. And the reason was over penetration and the inability to transfer it`s energy into the target before passing through it.
This is exactly where the 9mm picked up with it`s hype and new styled double jump back super sonic hollow pointed double expander bullet-15 shot wonder nine venue.
What makes a 45acp work is not speed, it is simply a large frontal area delivered at a slow speed, allowing for the energy to transfer into the target.

When you soup up a 45acp, you negate it`s effectiveness by allowing it to again-pass through before transfer.

LTS

[Pistolenschutze]

Speer's Gold Dots deserve a look too, I think. I use those in my .38 special carry guns, and from all accounts, they seem to work quite effectively. In the 9mm though, I go with the proven standard, the Corbon 115 grainer. It's hard to argue with proven success.

[Pat Hurley]

I never cease to be impressed with the smarts this crowd displays on a daily basis. The best ammo has already been enunciated above, but I'll list mine in order of preference...


Cor Bon (+P if your gun can take it)
Hornady TAP
Speer Gold Dot
Federal Hydra Shock


The first two are in a class by themselves, as far as I'm concerned, with Cor Bon a strong number one.

Happy shootin'!

Pat Hurley

[delta13soultaker]

LTS, I'm gonna disagree with ya some.

The .357 is a more efficient killer on the killing end than .45 acp. Blasphemy right! The high spped bullet disrupts on impact and the upset makes a wide wound channel; mass going so fast punches deep through vitals. But for LE is bark outweights the bite. It's just less practical than plenty other cartridges for a general issue weapon.

The .45 acp is the best all around balanced close combat handgun cartridge (with exception for exceptions:D ) with more bite for less bark in a better platform. Wide frontal cross section makes a big wound channel and lots of mass punches deep through vitals. Same principal...

Energy transfer....punch a man and see if he dies...stab him and watch him bleed to death....a punch transfers more energy but the blade's wound channel into vitals kills....

Pat, who the hell said ya got to be smart to enunciate with us?

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Say Pat, it`s bad enough when we have to cifer ole IBTruckin, but now we have to have a dictionary for you????????????
CRIPeS!

cides mine is 230Grain HP Golden Saber`s---the real flying ashtray!

LTS

[southernshooter]

Southern, I took a look at Hornady TAP and it does look like some good ammo. I like Hornady anyway. The 200 grain .45 acp +P TAP looks like a real dooozy....pushing a 200 grain .45 hollowpoint at almost the speed of a lighter 9mm round...that's should have great terminal effect.

The make 2 models in it for my .45acp I would recomend the 200 grain it is turning out alot more FPS of energy than the 230 grain

[flopshot]

you can argue physics all day. velocity vs mass. you can give up some velocity if you make it up in mass, and give up mass if you make it up in velocity. in the end, it's what happens to the bullet as it enters flesh and vital organs. the projectile with the most damage wins. a 9mm ball has no chance against a 45 cal hollow point and nobody is going to argue that. just for the sake of thought, the projectile that penetrated the last shuttle was 10mm, though it was traveling rather quickly. some serious damage. once you get past the damage on impact, it's all about what you are able to hit with your chosen round. hit two in the chest and one in the head with a 38 and you're way head of the guy that can only lay one in the calf with a 50 cal.

[southernshooter]

Yea that is true Flop, what I was talking about was once you have bought a certain caliber handgun. Why not buy the most damaging ammo in that caliber

[flopshot]

Yea that is true Flop, what I was talking about was once you have bought a certain caliber handgun. Why not buy the most damaging ammo in that caliber

no doubt. nobody decides to buy a weapon to "hurt" an attacker, but i think many never really consider the fact that they may use a gun to kill another human. that fact can be masked by not giving much thought about ammo. there's also the the thought that if in the event of a situation, one's choice of ammunition may effect a legal decision. the media loves talking about evil guns and evil ammo. seems like you can defend yourself with a sporting type weapon and get a different reaction than if it was an AK,AR, or you were using some mystic "cop killer" round.

[45Smashemflat]

Big slugs that dump energy in the target - that pays the bills. At least in my book. That's why the shift away from 556 to 762 for CQB in shorter barrels.

[Pat Hurley]

Say Pat, it`s bad enough when we have to cifer ole IBTruckin, but now we have to have a dictionary for you????????????
CRIPeS!

cides mine is 230Grain HP Golden Saber`s---the real flying ashtray!

LTS


Geeeeeeez, one lousy misspell and I'm tarred and feathered.

[SouthernMoss]

Geeeeeeez, one lousy misspell and I'm tarred and feathered.

It wasn't the misspelling ... it was the big words you used. ;) :D

[glocknut]

It wasn't the misspelling ... it was the big words you used. ;) :D

Zinggggg.... :D :D :D :D

mike
gn

[Pat Hurley]

It wasn't the misspelling ... it was the big words you used. ;) :D


I doubt seriously that there's one word I've written that you weren't familiar with.

As a former TV news anchor, I've long been in the habit of using the english language to the fullest. I hope you're ribbing me in good fun, or else I'm gonna get a complex.

Vote Republican... please!

Pat Hurley

[Marlin]

Don't feel badly, Pat.

Once in a while this ole retired Jurist get 'cused of da sam ting.....

I've had em tell me - - [Quit usin' dem big words none knows wat dem is.....]

:) :) :)

[Pat Hurley]

Don't feel badly, Pat.

Once in a while this ole retired Jurist get ''cused of da sam ting.....

I've had em tell me - - [Quit usin' dme big words none knows wat dem is.....]

:) :) :)



Whew! I feel better knowin' I'm not the only one guilty of sounding sharp as a bowling ball.

Pat Hurley

[glocknut]

I doubt seriously that there's one word I've written that you weren't familiar with.


Pat... as i understand it, the "big words" was a zinggg against LTS...not you.
Thats the way i took it anyway. I may be wrong though... :D

mike
gn

[Pistolenschutze]

Once in a while this ole retired Jurist get ''cused of da sam ting.....

I've had em tell me - - [Quit usin' dme big words none knows wat dem is.....]

Marlin, you mean all dem dare good ol' boy Mississippi judges don't like no damnyankees soundin' too "uppity?" :D

[Marlin]

It's more like many of them can't stand having a strict Constitutionalist around.....

[southernshooter]

you mean all dem dare good ol' boy Mississippi judges don't like no damnyankees soundin' too "uppity?"
Not just no He!! no:p

[Pistolenschutze]

It's more like many of them can't stand having a strict Constitutionalist around.....

Too true, Marlin. I hear the Ninth District Court judges have a problem with that too. :mad: I suspect those "learned" members of the Federal Judiciary haven't read the Constitution since law school, if then. :rolleyes:

[HiPowerKid]

Here's one to watch: http://www.rbcd.net. I've seen the difference on plastic jugs with water between a hydra-shok and the rbcd and it was no contest with the rbcd winning hands down. It is even more expensive than most other standard hollow points like Golden Sabre, Hydra-shok, etc. I haven't heard of any real life results, but it looks VERY IMPRESSIVE. It's worth a try.

[HiPowerKid]

You gents may or may not have heard yet of a company by the name of RBCD. Their website, RBCD.net tells about their ammo which is of a proprietary manufacture of two different hardness powdered metals one on top of the other in the same bullet that makes the bullet so versatile. If shot through hard metal at fast enough speed, the bullet drills a nice hole. If the same bullet is shot through warm flesh, it opens a gaping hole much wider than conventional hollow points. See their link:http://www.rbcd.net. For further info from a different source, I found this link via google on the bullet's effect on an Iraqi soldier: http://www.rense.com/general45/uswe.htm. I have personally witnessed the difference between a Hydra-Shok and one from RBCD in .380ACP on a plastic gallon jug filled with water and it was no contest. I am sure that if this gets continued use in Iraq, you'll soon hear that "Four out of Five soldiers prefer RBCD over competing brands." The doctors won't have much to work with so their jobs will be easier. The ammo is expensive at $38.00 per box of twenty rounds, but appears to be worth it.

[glocknut]

I thought that armies were limited to using full metal jacketed bullets by the Geneva convention or something like that??

mike
gn

[delta13soultaker]

All conventional military units are limited to FMJ.

Most organizations using expanding ammo are government agencies (DIA, CIA, etc) and contractors.

[Pistolenschutze]

that it must be a "common" caliber that wouldn't be looked at as being overly lethal. The carry caliber before this change was the evil sounding .357 Sig.

It's interesting you mention that caliber, Pops, since quite a few police departments have gone to it over the last few years, as well as some of the government police agencies. Personally, I like the round and often carry a Glock 33. What the general public does not often realize is that it is nothing more than a .40 S&W necked down to take a 9mm bullet, thus giving the round a bit more velocity--kind of a 9mm on steroids, so to speak. ;) Your bro-in-law obviously did his homework before he made his recommendation. The 9mm is sometimes panned by the gun writers and other pundits, but in reality, it is a very effective round. The .45 ACP ranks right up there with it in terms of energy and stopping power, though some like to argue it is far better. While I like the .45 very much, the in-field evidence seems to show that it is really no more effective than the 9mm assuming good bullets are used for both. One thing I have noticed, however, is that new shooters have a much easier time learning to shoot a 9mm than a .45. I agree, much of that is probably psychological, but it is still a relevant factor.

[HannibalTheCrow]

I personally, which dont mean much to anyone but me, like Gold Dot 124 Grain HP's in my S&W 9mm. And, I like 102 grain Golden Sabre's HP's in my Bersa 380.

Not that those are any better round than others, but they just seem to be more accurate for myself.

[Pistolenschutze]

I personally, which dont mean much to anyone but me, like Gold Dot 124 Grain HP's in my S&W 9mm. And, I like 102 grain Golden Sabre's HP's in my Bersa 380.

Not that those are any better round than others, but they just seem to be more accurate for myself.

If they work for you, use them Hannibal. The only rounds that really matter, when all is said and done, are the ones that actually hit the target! For myself, I prefer the Corbon +P 115 grainers for my 9mm Steyr, and use Federal Hydra Shok 90 grainers in my .380 Sig P-230.

[Recon 173]

I would NEVER, NEVER carry Silvertip ammo for any reason!!!!

I had a buddy get into a wrestling match with a dirtbag over a 9 mm Glock pistol. In the process the gun fires off one round. The round was a Silvertip. The bullet struck the dirtbag in the lower jaw, broke it and stopped right there. It did NOT penetrate any farther. It just lodged in the area of the jaw. The other guy who was the head range master was the one who determined what ammo our agency carried. He and I had been arguing for a couple of years over the worthlessness of Silvertips. After that incident, the other range master finally understood what my 19 months in Viet Nam had taught me: you need bullets with weight and decent diameter to them for them to be effective. My buddy switched from a Glock 19 to a Glock 21 and from then on he also carried Hydra Shok ammo like I did. We pulled all of the Silvertip Ammo from ALL of our duty guns within two days of my friend's shooting situation.

Prior to that incident there was one where two Illinois State Troopers stopped a biker wanted on felony warrants up by Chicago. The biker pulled a revolver and started shooting at the two troopers. The troopers responded with 21 or 22 bullets return fired by 9 mm S&W Model 39 pistols. Yes, they both had reloaded in the course of the exchange and fired a couple of extra rounds. The troopers were using the 9 mm Silvertip ammo in their guns too. Needless to say the biker expired at the scene. Later on it was determined that none... NOT A SINGLE SILVERTIP BULLET.. had penetrated into the body of the deceased biker. ALL OF THE SILVERTIP AMMO... EVERY BIT OF IT... had been found to be lodged in the biker's heavy leather coat. The troopers had fired a nice pattern but the stress of the shootout had caused the biker to die of a heart attack. Yep, the biker died of natural causes, not well placed shots.

Because of both of these incidents and because I want to stay alive, I don't use, carry or even think about having any Silvertip Ammo in any of my guns. Oh... and anybody who tells you that a lightweight bullet travelling at a high speed is a great thing... suggest that they go to using either a .22 LR or .22 Magnum bullet to really show how much they REALLY believe in that ignorant theory. After all, a .22 is a very light weight bullet travelling at high speeds, right? :D

[TranterUK]

I am not up to speed on what is available in the US cartridge wise, but do have a thought.

If using 9mm for self defence I suggest mixing rounds in the mag. The simplest way is to mix ball with enhanced, HP or SP whatever. I would go with three/ four HP atop of three/ four ball, and maybe HP for the rest. If for any reason the HPs arent getting the message across (perhaps through a car door) the FMJs may.

[Pistolenschutze]

I am not up to speed on what is available in the US cartridge wise, but do have a thought.

Pretty much anything you want, Tranter, from a .17 through a .50. :D

If using 9mm for self defence I suggest mixing rounds in the mag. The simplest way is to mix ball with enhanced, HP or SP whatever. I would go with three/ four HP atop of three/ four ball, and maybe HP for the rest. If for any reason the HPs arent getting the message across (perhaps through a car door) the FMJs may.

I see your point, but I've always been a bit reluctant to do that with an auto pistol. I've done it with revolvers though. Shifting ammo types in the same magazine of an auto can lead to jamming in some cases. Also, I don't have too much faith in 9mm hardball ammo for use against human targets. It tends to penetrate too much and often wastes most of its energy on the other side of the target. I'm not saying it won't work, merely that it does not usually impart enough energy to stop an opponent quickly.

Now, I have a question for you. What calibers are you folks in Britain able to own after all the firearm confiscations that took place a few years ago? As I understand it, you are only able to own a firearm at all if it is licensed and kept at a certified gun range under lock and key. None, as I understand it, may be kept at home. Is that true?

[TranterUK]

OK Pistolenschutze, did I get that right? First as you know any ammo carried for self defence should be tested for feed problems first on the range. I should also mention the guy who taught me mixing was Israeli and from 'you know who', so I paid close attention (Lets not go down that road).

England, the first to mass produce and the home of fine firearms. Queen Victoria fired the opening shot at the Bisley competitions in 1880 something. Where did it all go so wrong?

We are allowed to have both firearms and ammunition at home in the UK subject to having a licence issued by the Police. The licence must list each weapon, it's serial number and the ammunition must match the gun the ammo and is limited, the amount varies. We are only allowed to shoot on approved ranges (I am lucky and able to use the local military range, up to 1000yds, not that I can see that far any more). Any firearms and ammo must also be stored in steel safes.

What are we allowed? no handguns, rifles are OK but no self loaders except .22s so most shoot bolt action rifles.

There are one or two loopholes, 'straight pull rifles'. These are self loaders that have been made with no gas system so you have to cycle after each shot.

That's pretty much the large picture, Take a look at www.dwsuk.org and see where many fine guns in the UK are going. Best get a drink ready before you look, say hi to Harvey who runs the show.

[Pistolenschutze]

OK Pistolenschutze, did I get that right? First as you know any ammo carried for self defence should be tested for feed problems first on the range. I should also mention the guy who taught me mixing was Israeli and from 'you know who', so I paid close attention (Lets not go down that road).

Around here, most people just call me "Pistol" or "PS" for short. As long as they don't call me "late for dinner," I'm happy. :D I agree, Tranter, those Mossad folks are generally reluctant to talk about their activities much. They're not very different than the SIS and CIA folks in that respect I suppose. ;) As for the mixed magazines, I've heard of that technique and it does make sense, assuming it has been thoroughly tested for functionality beforehand. Barrier penetration is rarely an issue for civilian self defense situations, but it does make a lot of sense for military or police applications.

England, the first to mass produce and the home of fine firearms. Queen Victoria fired the opening shot at the Bisley competitions in 1880 something. Where did it all go so wrong?

Electing Liberal Party candidates to Parliament, perhaps? Where is Margaret Thacher when you need her? :D;):p

We are allowed to have both firearms and ammunition at home in the UK subject to having a licence issued by the Police. The licence must list each weapon, it's serial number and the ammunition must match the gun the ammo and is limited, the amount varies. We are only allowed to shoot on approved ranges (I am lucky and able to use the local military range, up to 1000yds, not that I can see that far any more). Any firearms and ammo must also be stored in steel safes.

What are we allowed? no handguns, rifles are OK but no self loaders except .22s so most shoot bolt action rifles.

There are one or two loopholes, 'straight pull rifles'. These are self loaders that have been made with no gas system so you have to cycle after each shot.

That's pretty much the large picture, Take a look at www.dwsuk.org and see where many fine guns in the UK are going. Best get a drink ready before you look, say hi to Harvey who runs the show.

So then, no handguns of any kind are allowed to civilians, not even antiques like the old Webley revolvers and such? What about the old express double rifles made by Holland & Holland in calibers like .600 Nitro? Do the laws limit what calibers may be owned? What about shotguns? Hunting birds has a long standing tradition in the British Isles, especially in Scotland as I recall. Is that still permitted? Indeed, is hunting still permitted in Britain at all?

Sorry for so many questions, but I truly am interested. It is not too often we get members from the UK here on TFF, and it is always fun to compare notes.

[TranterUK]

OK, deep breath, A double rifle is fine, its not a self loader, well none I have come across.
No Webley revolvers, again, there is a small loophole whereby some 'collectable' handguns can still be had, but it's easier to have sex with a gnat.
Yes, no handguns, a loophole gives a minimum rifle length so some people have revolvers with long barrels and a fixed 'arm/ wrist' brace. I dont like the idea myself.

Shotguns, same type of licence, single brls, side by sides, Over unders, self loaders and pumps OK but magazines limited to two.
Cartridges, no apparent limitation I know of beyond no HP or SP unless for hunting, but most ranges have a max power rating, but 7.62 x 51, .303 and 7.92s all seem OK.

Hunting, Yes we still hunt, stalk deer, various birds. I hunt. Hunting with dogs got banned a couple of years ago. I never did it, diddnt want to but couldnt see why that should prevent other people from doing it. What price freedom? no really, think about it seriously. I make no apologies for this line, people gave their lives so I could live as a free man, now others want to throw it away. As you Americans might say, 'it sucks'

[Marlin]

Thank you so much for the wealth of good information, Tranter and Pistol. I, too, am happy to see one from across the pond in our midst. I hope you become a regular member of the family. :) :) :)

It is always delightful when such a discussion crops up on the forum. We are, indeed, fortunate to have all the combined knowledge here along with some of the best folks around. :) :) :)

I appreciate both or you more than one will ever know.....

Yes, Pistol, if I had lived out in the jurisdiction of the 9th, those libelal nuts would have had a field day with some of my decisions. However, it most likely would have only contributed to the SCOTUS workload and the huge numbers of reversal for the 9th. Such a pity to waste all that tax money on the likes of the 9th..... Won't say much more as I feel my BP fighting for a TOP NOTCH. Can't afford that !!!!!

[TranterUK]

Pistol, Extra:
I just checked and here the stats for my local range, Max Cal .577, Velocity 1000m/s 3275 Fps Muzzel Energy 7000 Joules whatever they are, Ah, 5160 Ft lbs, that's better.

Also Maggie Thatcher, met her three times and felt intimidated, she was the business.

[Pistolenschutze]

Pistol, Extra:
I just checked and here the stats for my local range, Max Cal .577, Velocity 1000m/s 3275 Fps Muzzel Energy 7000 Joules whatever they are, Ah, 5160 Ft lbs, that's better.

Also Maggie Thatcher, met her three times and felt intimidated, she was the business.

She was all of that, Tanter! :D There was tremendous respect for her on this side of the pond, just as there was for our President at the time, Ronald Reagan. Our enemies did not tend to mess with either one of those people much. The Argentines found that out the hard way in 1982 with Thacher, as did Miramar Kadafi with Reagan.

It is so sad really that the British government sets so many limits for civilian firearms. Britain designed and built--still designs and builds for that matter-- some of the finest small arms in the world. It is tragic that citizens of that great nation have so many impediments to owning and using them. Holland and Holland still builds world-class rifles, for example. I would dearly love to own one of their double rifles in .375 H&H or .416 Jeffrey one day.

Thank you so much for the wealth of good information, Tranter and Pistol. I, too, am happy to see one from across the pond in our midst. I hope you become a regular member of the family.

It is always delightful when such a discussion crops up on the forum. We are, indeed, fortunate to have all the combined knowledge here along with some of the best folks around.

I could not agree more, Marlin! This type of conversation is most pleasant indeed. It is always great to get the viewpoint of those from other parts of the world, especially from those with whom we have so much in common as out British friends. I too hope you will visit with us often, Tranter. I look forward to many such pleasant and informative conversations in the future.

[TranterUK]

Marlin and Pistol,
Its an honour gentleman.
I had to get this one in, it includes a 'gun mystery'.
I was visiting the Holland and Holland shooting establishment in Ruislip, West London 28/30 years ago. I was there to test a handgun before departing for, elsewhere (No secret, just forgot).
On the range were two guys accuracy testing a H and H double rifle with a large U.S. presedential seal set into the stock. They said it was gifted to Roosevelt by the UK and was back for 'a tidy'. Then they asked if I would like to try a couple of shots. Do bears walk in the wood's.
I shot and both bullets fell one half inch apart at 50yds, which from the shoulder standing seemed pretty good to me. Recoil? on the second shot the plastic fell out of one side of my Raybans.
So, nice tale, true story, wheres the mystery? I kept the brass, I have them now. They are .458 Win Mags, belted, which I think were introduced early 50s? So, how,

[Pistolenschutze]

So, nice tale, true story, wheres the mystery? I kept the brass, I have them now. They are .458 Win Mags, belted, which I think were introduced early 50s? So, how,

Obviously, the rifle you fired could not have been one intended for either of our former presidents Teddy or Franklin Roosevelt, not unless it had been re-barreled to .458 Winchester from a different caliber. That seems unlikely. TR passed away in 1919, and Franklin in 1945. The .458 Winchester was not introduced until 1956 according to my Speer Reloading Manual data. Could it be that it was a rifle gifted to a different president, Eisenhower or Reagan perhaps? That would be entirely possible.

And yes, I know the feeling about the recoil of the .458. It is not a caliber one would wish to fire too many times in rapid succession! ;)

[user]

9mm measure comparison at 50 yds.
-----
Brand/model Number Weight Type velocity/K.E.

Fed Premium HST Tact p9hst1 124 jhp 1060/310
fed premium hydrashok p9HS1 124 jhp 1028/291
Hornady 9mm Luger XTP 90242 124 jhp/xtp 1030/292
Remington Golden Saber GS9mmB 124 Bjhp 1031/293

[Gene Seward]

Corbon DPX 115gr. is unreal. After water testing it shows great expansion and I have gone to this in all my weapons for CCW.

[UncleFudd]

News flash guys.

Winchester XSTs are the same as Black Talon without the tef;on and the name.

Couldn't stand the lawsuits coming if someone was shot with that horrible "BLACK TALON". Just the name caused them to change , marketing at its" best.

But I still load out with either Hydrashock or Gold Dot.
UF

[inplanotx]

News flash guys.

Winchester XSTs are the same as Black Talon without the tef;on and the name.

Couldn't stand the lawsuits coming if someone was shot with that horrible "BLACK TALON". Just the name caused them to change , marketing at its" best.

But I still load out with either Hydrashock or Gold Dot.
UF


The "Black" on the Black Talon was NOT teflon. It was an oxide and not meant as a lubricant.

Yes, the Winchester SXT bullet is basically the same. Some minute changes were made to the bullet.

IPT

[user]

124 grain Golden Saber is decent ammo (Avoid the 147 grain regardless of brand.)
...Southern, I took a look at Hornady TAP and it does look like some good ammo. I like Hornady anyway. ...

Agree.

Golden Saber is designed to be a low-recoil cartridge that's effective at short range. I find that it deposits more crud in my guns than other mfgrs' stuff. But it's designed for self-defense, and it's reliable and will work just fine.

My recommendation would be to see if you can find Federal Premium HST, and if it's a larger gun (e.g., a Sig 226, a Kahr K9, etc.) use the +P variety; in a smaller (especially poly or aluminum frame) gun, +P may make too much recoil. But it comes in boxes of fifty and is a better value than just about anything else.

When I was a manager of data processing, I had to hire programmers. I'd advertise in the Washington Post and get a stack of resumes about eighteen inches thick over three weeks. I didn't have time to find the very best person for the job. I needed someone who could do the job and at an amount of money my employer was willing to pay. So I would go through those resumes, and over a couple of hours, throw away about two-thirds of them. Some of those people were rejected because they didn't have a batchelor's degree. But three of the very best programmers I've ever known had no degree at all, and one didn't graduate high school. The optimal programmer for my job slot may have gone into the trash can. But that didn't matter, because I got people who were reliable, intelligent, competent, and adequate for the job, at the right amount of money.

The point is that you have to maximize effectiveness and value, especially in expendables like bullets. Look at the way people sell computer printers - they don't make any money on those, their profit comes from toner, cables, and paper.

You need a bullet that will do the job at the right amount of money. You don't need the best possible bullet, unless you're going to be executing search warrants on Columbian drug kingpins at two in the morning. And, since the guys who do that are on "low bid" government contracts, they're not using the best possible, either.

[USMCSpeedy]

For personal defense I prefer the Winchester 147gr XST. It is supposed to be the exact same round as the Black Talon without the teflon coating.