New or used?

[polishshooter]

Pat and I got into a "discussion" on another thread helping a newbie decide what handgun to buy for his first one, that devolved into a "I never buy a used gun" vs. a "I would never buy a NEW gun" "difference of opinion...":);)

It got me to thinking , Eureka! How about a POLL!:):):)


Here's my take, much like buying a car, the BIGGEST hit in value you take is DRIVING IT OFF THE LOT! Heck, just like any CAR you see on the road without DEALER plates, is a USED car, so WHY pay the PREMIUM for one??? And don't give me the "reliability" issue, MANY "new" cars are "hangar queens" and lemons, while I have driven, purchased and/or owned a total of 9 since 1998 that had in excess of 100,000 miles on them with almost nothing replaced on them but TIRES ...and can count the times they left me stranded on my hand with NO thumb....but I HAVE been stranded by a 2 week old "New" car before.... In fact right now the car I have that has the LEAST miles on it is my 91 s-10 deer hunting truck! My wife's 2001 Impala (My company car when new, I bought it at turn in with 62k on it) has 112000 on it (only major repair, a $400 computer at 100k) My daughter's 02 Taurus, 137000 miles, my FIRST company car with this company, first major repair this week, the alternator (and yeah, it could use struts, but let HER pay for that!:p ) My son's 04 Escape with 117000 on it, a guy I work with COmpany Car "turn in," and my current company car, an 05 Escape with 118000 on it...they are now experimenting with us driving them the length of the three year lease, regarless of the miles, I will have around 150k on it next march, and intend to buy IT too for hunting and retire the S-10!

My father, on his deathbed, when we were having that priceless conversation about life, shared with me his ONLY regret in his life...EVER buying a New vehicle! He said if he had bought ALL his cars used at least 1 year old, and INVESTED the money he lost driving it off the darn lot, he would have left us a LOT of money...


Guns are the SAME way, except the money you save TODAY, is MORE money you'll make when you SELL it becasue of appreciation, UNLIKE cars...

Like when the S&W .500 mags came out, what were they? $1000??

Less than a YEAR later you can buy "slightly used" ones at ANY Gunshow for $750-$800....:p MANY guys bought them because they were BIG or COOL or NEW, fired them ONCE, couldn't handle them and TRADED them back in!!!:p

Wait a few years, see if the "new-fangled Model" is reliable, then buy one USED for a lot less and enjoy it along with all your OTHER "used" guns...which you HAVE to admit, are ALL "Used Guns" NOW unless they are still "NIB, unfired", but what fun is THAT????;)


And why LIMIT yourself? You would PASS on a good deal on a pre-64 model 70 or maybe a nice Model 12, or a Garand, or a mauser or Enfield or an Ithaca 1911A1 or any OTHER discontinued or no longer available firearm because it's USED????


Your serve, Pat!;) :D :D :D

[Sackett]

Will not buy a used gun for the simple reason that some idiot has probably hot loaded it to the point of damage, or tinkered with it until they were dissatisfied with its performance. I'm not a gun expert and will not take the chance on damaged goods, just as I'm not a auto expert and will not buy a used vehicle.
After reading so many posts across the internet about hot loading weapons, I'm firm in my resolve, and will be content to pay more for security of mind.

[Bruce FLinch]

Call me Lucky. I have bought about an equal # of used & new guns. Never got a lemon. Not that I liked all the guns I bought, but they all worked ok.

[polishshooter]

Sackett, I appreciate your point, especially about not being a "Gun Expert," BUT your worry about somebody "Hot Loading" for it to the point of damage is virtually unfounded....

"Hot Loading" to the point of actually damaging the GUN itself is pretty hard to do, unless of course it's a GLOCK:p :eek:

Now, yeah, I wouldn't buy say a Garand without guaging it for wear, and I at LEAST do a "Polish Headspace Test" on my 50-60-70 year old rifles I collect and SHOOT, and would be VERY careful buying a used rifle in some hot load like .220 Swift that might have MANY rounds down it either on the range or on varmints, you DON'T have to be an "expert," to buy used! MOST of the time the general wear of the OUTSIDE of the gun, including little things like how BADLY are the SCREWS buggered:p and a check down the barrel will tell you EXACTLY how the gun was treated. With even just a LITTLE knowledge and experience, it's pretty easy to tell what guns were owned by a "Hamfister" and what ones were "Well Used but Used WELL..."

That's the REAL reason people and collectors don't like buying "refinished" guns...BESIDES the value being lessened if not "original," you can mistake it's condition by it's "looks," but again, USUALLY the quality of the "refinish" ALSO reflects whether it may have been "rebuilt" to standards, or even BETTER than standard...

MILITARY weapons on the other hand, that our troops and others DEPEND ON for their LIVES, have been "rebuilt" MANY times in it's lifetime, so that too is not as big a deal....

Even in other threads here you see insinuations of "having to sell guns" to pay bills, or guns as "investments...." MOST guns are built to standards MUCH higher than CARS ever were...There are PLENTY of "deals" out there to be found!

Very FEW used firearms, at least on the shelves of reputable stores, ESPECIALLY in this age of "frivolous lawsuits," are "unsafe...." In fact, at stores like Cabelas and Gander Mountain, they have them ALL "checked by a gunsmith" before they sell them as "Used...."

Now yeah, once I found a SWEET 1893 WInchester at a gun shop, that some numbnuts had refinished into a NICE looking "Slug Gun" with a short barrel and a Lyman Reciever sight:cool: , and the young guy behind the counter at the TIME thought it was a '97.... I have RARELY found any guns "needing repair" or "unsafe to fire" not advertised, and thus PRICED accordingly.....

Plus I HAVE bought USED Guns from a shop before that DID have a hidden defect, that the shop owner stood behind and REPAIRED for no charge...you RARELY get "AS IS" from a shop on guns like you get with a car, except from "private owners...."


But to each his own, if you INSIST on buying only new, then I guess all those great deals you miss will be there for ME!:p :p :p ;) :)

[JohnK3]

Didn't have my choice in the poll:

"I'll buy either and don't give a rat's patootie either way."

[polishshooter]

Actually, John, I ran out of choices and probably couldn't have spelled "patootie" anyway, SORRY!:D

[polishshooter]

HEY Pistol, how MANY "New, Virtually NEVER used" guns have you BOUGHT with your C&R so far? Just WONDERING...

I got bad news for ya'....SORRY!



"Rearsenaled to Like New" 60 or 70 year old Mausers and Mosins aren't REALLY "new....":p :p

[pickenup]

Many of the "used" guns I have bought come with the original box of ammo they got for it. They took it out, shot it ONCE, then put it away in a closet or something.

I can only think of one gun that I bought brand new, and it was a POS 22 derringer. It wore out REAL quick. On the other hand, I've had a BUNCH of "like new" but "used" guns that preform flawlessly for years.

I will admit, that with as many years as I have been doing it, there have been a couple of lemons. I bought them at the right price because of that fact.

So for me, I'll continue to let someone else "drive it off the lot" and reap the advantages afterward.

[Pistolenschutze]

Polish, when I've bought C&R guns I've been as careful as possible to buy only the best available, even if that costs a little more. Generally, I won't buy anything rated less than "very good to excellent" by a reliable dealer, and even then I've sometimes been disappointed. Yet I think that C&R stuff, which is historical collector oriented, is in a different category than what your basic question implies. Only very rarely have I purchased a used handgun or rifle, and that is based on the not unreasonable theory that used guns can often end up like used cars: you never really know what you have until after the check clears and the transmission falls out! :p I have bought used weapons, but only when I wanted the gun for something non-critical. I have not, and will not, ever buy a used handgun that I intend to use for CCW. It's simply not worth the risk in my opinion.

[polishshooter]

This must be one of the FEW (:p ) times I would have toi disagree with you , PS...

I would NEVER trust my life to a NEW gun, or at least one I had not personally put HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of rounds down the barrel! Which at least THEN makes it "well used..."

NEW guns fail to feed regularly, NEW guns have burrs and rough spots, NEW guns need feed ramps polished and barrels throated to be SURE they will feed ANY bullet much less empty cases which your CCW auto SHOULD, NEW guns RARELY have the sights, or grips I want or need, new guns RARELY let their mags fall free with only gravity, new guns especially in this age of "mass production" and "product liability," rarely EVER have an "acceptable trigger pull"....plus, WHY do you think there is even the TERM "Break-in period?"




No I won't give you that "Trust your life" cop-out, which is what it is....it's a "feel good position" NOT based in fact, regarding ANYTHING mechanical....if you BELIEVE ANYTHING "New is SAFER," you are NAIVE, with all due RESPECT....;)



Do you REALLY want to fly on that "new" Airbus on your next trip to Europe? Why do you THINK pilots say "If it ain't BOEING, I ain't GOING?" Give me a 20 or 25 year old well maintained and inspected 747 ANY DAY of the week, and when that Airbus has logged as many trouble free miles, MAYBE I'd feel safer....



...and YES it IS like a car...you and EVERYONE else trusts their LIFE EVERDAY to 100% USED parts in that car, every time you start it up in the morning since the day AFTER you "bought it new!"...there is NOTHING that cannot or should not be INSPECTED and MAINTAINED regularly in anything mechanical, REGARDLESS of age...and parts simply can be REPLACED when worn, which then makes the car, or gun, AS SAFE OR even SAFER than when it was NEW!

Now if you can afford to trade for a new car every 12 months/12000 miles, I can see that you MIGHT think "new" are more reliable...but I'd BET sooner or later you will even have problem with one of THEM....After all, why are there Warranties???? But the COST you pay for that mythical "good feeling?" What a RIPOFF for no provable benefit except the "new car smell!":p They ought to let you "buy 3 get one free!" if you do that.

But I guess the UAW thanks you...:rolleyes:



But a GUN, especially most OLD high-quality guns, were designed and built to last SEVERAL lifetimes of normal use....your CAR was designed to last MAYBE 5 years MAX....but even THEN, are there ANY cars out there OLDER than 5 years that are reliable and safe? MOST of them still are with ANY kind of maintenance....and the POS cars out there that ARE unsafe? It has NOTHING to do with age, that irresponsible DRIVER/Owner would be JUST as dangerous in a NEW car, IMHO....


Now maybe it HAS something to do with experience, including EXACTLY what that experience is...like if you are a competent even if only a "shadetree" mechanic that likes to work on cars or anything else mechanical, you are more likely to be driving an OLDER car that's maintained, if you ever raced a stockcar literally on the edge of potential death and realize that MOST of that car was salvaged from a JUNK yard....but is probably SAFER at 100mph on the banks than the vehicle you DROVE to the track...it's probably the same thing with guns...

Maybe those of us that like to tinker with guns, take them apart, figure out how to improve them, do most of our "minor" gunsmithing ourselves, trust "used" better than new...

Heck, if I can't take it apart and understand what EVERY part does or doesn't do, and find SOMETHING I can polish or maybe a burr to remove or a part or a spring to replace to make it BETTER, I don't trust it at ALL....:p

[Pistolenschutze]

This must be one of the FEW (:p ) times I would have toi disagree with you , PS...

I would NEVER trust my life to a NEW gun, or at least one I had not personally put HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of rounds down the barrel! Which at least THEN makes it "well used..."

You missed my point entirely, Polish. It is axiomatic that any weapon one intends to use for self-defense must be well tested prior to commitment for that use. The point is, I will not rely on a weapon someone else "tested." In other words, any weapon I carry for CCW is one I bought NIB and have personally broken in and know positively, from having put several hundred rounds through it myself, that it is as reliable as I can make it. Moreover, I will buy only top-end firearms from the best manufacturers to start with if the weapon is to be used for self-defense. Call it paranoia if you like, but that's the way I see it.

[polishshooter]

OK. paranoia it is!:D

That probably explains your irrational "hard-headedness" better than any other word...ALONG with your propensity towards plastic guns that blow up for no good reason....:D

No, I got your point PRECISELY.

All I am saying is that you CAN get to that level of dependability and "bet your life reliability," sometimes EASIER, with a USED gun and use the SUBSTANTIAL savings to BUY MORE AMMO to practice with! Which in MY book is better for ANY shooter, much less a NOVICE, without unlimited resources!

ALONG with the fact you could just as EASILY pay the PREMIUM for "New," and NOT get that anywhere NEAR that same level of trust....yes, EVEN from a QUALITY manufacturer, and have to spend as much or MORE to get it "RIGHT!"!

The fact is simply that "NEW" or "USED" does NOT in ANY way guarantee or preclude ANYTHING in the way of dependability, accuracy, safety, or ANY other comparison! For every "clunker" out there in the USED market, I can show you a "new" product RECALL....

I hate to shake your world, BUT....that "Peace of mind" you get buying "new?" It's ALL in your head, NOT borne out by facts....but if it makes you feel better to PAY for it, go ahead....

You say you would NEVER trust ANY gun without thoroughly testing it...so explain to me WHAT exactly AT THAT POINT is the DIFFERENCE in your mind between one "Thoroughly Tested and found utterly reliable" that you bought USED, or the SAME gun purchased "NIB"?????

What IS the difference in your quote below, IF we replaced the italics with "bought New OR Used and"?????? NOTHING. You have arrive to the same point irrespective of the PATH, new or used....and getting there one way is no FASTER than the other!

"In other words, any weapon I carry for CCW is one I bought NIB and have personally broken in and know positively, from having put several hundred rounds through it myself, that it is as reliable as I can make it."

The TRUE "Peace of mind" occurs at the END of that statement, not in the PURCHASE....no matter WHAT you paid initially!.

But TOO MANY people substitute "NEW IN BOX" for all the testing, and practice, and have a utterly FALSE sense of security or "Peace of Mind," that could get them KILLED. Many times they try to have it BOTH ways, they NEVER shoot it, to keep it "NIB" condition as an "investment," NEVER truly knowing if it even FUNCTIONS,.. But it's NEW, right? It SHOULD work...:p

On the other hand most people I know who buy a gun USED, immediately shoot it, and shoot it a LOT, since they are not WORRIED about wear or tear, and want to be SURE it works...

The old saying (was it Jeff Cooper or Joh Wayne?:p ) "Men carrying new shiney guns are a dime a dozen, beware of the guy with an OLD WORN gun because he just MIGHT know how to USE it" makes much BETTER sense to me....








Bottom line, to me, the ONLY good thing about people wasting their money buying new, is it keeps firearms manufacturers in BUSINESS, which is overall a good thing, because it means TODAY's new will be available TOMORROW used at a much better price, with all the possible bugs worked out....

[Don Buckbee]

All of my centerfire rifles are new when I buy them, mainly for reasons stated above. That way I'm certain they haven't been abused.
But, I have bought several 22 Rimfire rifles used. Being selective in who I buy them from has kept me from getting a lemon. All of the used
22's have been excellent shooters too. Some of the used 22's I got from Dealers, and others from private individuals. I made sure that all had good credentials before making the purchase. These 22's have been out of production for a long time, and have a reputation for excellent accuracy. There just aren't current production rifles that can equal the older Martinis, Walthers or the Suhls, so I buy used.

Don

[bunnyhunter12]

My Win. 1300 was NEW and after three years of dragging her through the bushes chasing the dog, who is chasing a rabbit, who seems to be chasing me in one big circle, she still looks new.

That said, a friend's wife who doesn't have her PAL yet (possesion aquisition license) got me to buy a Win. 120 Ranger last Christmas for him, as a surprise. I took it home and stripped, cleaned and polished it up so it would be all nice and shiny under the tree. That shotgun is ~20 years old I guess, if not more and I'd trade my 1300 for it any day even though I paid a couple hundred more.

[southernshooter]

I'd like to think I know enough about guns of all kinds to be able to tell If I am gonna get a good gun or a junk and abused gun. That is one good thing about working in a gun shop is that I have seen a many of guns took apart and I know what they should look like, And what they do look like if they have ever been mistreated
Or atlest that is what makes me feel good about buying used guns :D :D

[Pat Hurley]

Pat and I got into a "discussion" on another thread helping a newbie decide what handgun to buy for his first one, that devolved into a "I never buy a used gun" vs. a "I would never buy a NEW gun" "difference of opinion...":);)

It got me to thinking , Eureka! How about a POLL!:):):)


Here's my take, much like buying a car, the BIGGEST hit in value you take is DRIVING IT OFF THE LOT! Heck, just like any CAR you see on the road without DEALER plates, is a USED car, so WHY pay the PREMIUM for one??? And don't give me the "reliability" issue, MANY "new" cars are "hangar queens" and lemons, while I have driven, purchased and/or owned a total of 9 since 1998 that had in excess of 100,000 miles on them with almost nothing replaced on them but TIRES ...and can count the times they left me stranded on my hand with NO thumb....but I HAVE been stranded by a 2 week old "New" car before.... In fact right now the car I have that has the LEAST miles on it is my 91 s-10 deer hunting truck! My wife's 2001 Impala (My company car when new, I bought it at turn in with 62k on it) has 112000 on it (only major repair, a $400 computer at 100k) My daughter's 02 Taurus, 137000 miles, my FIRST company car with this company, first major repair this week, the alternator (and yeah, it could use struts, but let HER pay for that!:p ) My son's 04 Escape with 117000 on it, a guy I work with COmpany Car "turn in," and my current company car, an 05 Escape with 118000 on it...they are now experimenting with us driving them the length of the three year lease, regarless of the miles, I will have around 150k on it next march, and intend to buy IT too for hunting and retire the S-10!

My father, on his deathbed, when we were having that priceless conversation about life, shared with me his ONLY regret in his life...EVER buying a New vehicle! He said if he had bought ALL his cars used at least 1 year old, and INVESTED the money he lost driving it off the darn lot, he would have left us a LOT of money...


Guns are the SAME way, except the money you save TODAY, is MORE money you'll make when you SELL it becasue of appreciation, UNLIKE cars...

Like when the S&W .500 mags came out, what were they? $1000??

Less than a YEAR later you can buy "slightly used" ones at ANY Gunshow for $750-$800....:p MANY guys bought them because they were BIG or COOL or NEW, fired them ONCE, couldn't handle them and TRADED them back in!!!:p

Wait a few years, see if the "new-fangled Model" is reliable, then buy one USED for a lot less and enjoy it along with all your OTHER "used" guns...which you HAVE to admit, are ALL "Used Guns" NOW unless they are still "NIB, unfired", but what fun is THAT????;)


And why LIMIT yourself? You would PASS on a good deal on a pre-64 model 70 or maybe a nice Model 12, or a Garand, or a mauser or Enfield or an Ithaca 1911A1 or any OTHER discontinued or no longer available firearm because it's USED????


Your serve, Pat!;) :D :D :D


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Polish, my miserly, thrifty, and misguided friend. You are so tight, that if a lump coal were placed in your backside, in a week you'd have a diamond! :D

I do not quibble with your father's wisdom concerning depreciation - it is an undisputed fact. But we all make strategic choices and value judgements where some big ticket purchases are concerned. Unless a little old lady from El Paso actually did drive that little beauty of a used car, one is largely buying a pig in the poke. Did it go 10,000 miles between oil changes? You'll really never know until the engine seizes from sludge buildup. Oooops! Too late. Hello $3,000 for a replacement used engine!

While a gun does not expose you to the kind of financial losses that cars typically can, the same lessons apply. Was +P+ ammo used regularly in a gun not even designed to handle +P ammo? You'll never know until it blows up or falls apart in your hand. How often was it cleaned and lubricated?

Sorry Polish, guns don't have a "Car Fax" type service to fall back on either.

For the few extra dollars that a new pistol will cost you versus the used variety, you can break the gun in gently, feed it quality ammo with appropriate pressures, and pamper it through old age. YOUR old age, that is.

I love the peace of mind that comes with knowing that I am the only one who was responsible for the care and handling of a weapon that I might have to bet my life on someday. No dice rolls for me, when a few extra bucks can get me a shiny new one without a mysterious past.

Polish, my penny pinching fellow gunner... should you find yourself short when eyeballing a new vs. used pistol someday soon, please drop me a line. I only want the best for you! ;)

[polishshooter]

Ah Pat, you probably never buy 12 year old SCOTCH aged in USED bourbon barrels either because you get scared off by the born-on date too, right?


Lemme ask you a theoretical rhetorical question, and answer TRUTHFULLY please....:p


You get asked to go along on a "once in a lifetime" guided Elk hunt out west...you save and scrimp and come up with the $3500 or whatever you need to go along, then a month out it hits you like a ton of BRICKS...your "pristine" .32-20 lever action PA deer gun that you lavished all that care on since it was NEW probably ain't gonna cut it....:p


SOOooooo...you decide you want and need a .30-06...good for whatever you find out there, and you can STILL use it back east for deer...and you talk to your wife and you both decide have about $500 extra to spend, that's ALL....you are NOT independently wealthy, you have like 11 or 12 kids and maybe $1.380 in their college fund so far....since you bought all those NEW cars, but I digress...:cool:


SO you go into your local gun emporium, Fred's Shooter's Supply, and you knew Fred since your high school buddy introduced you, he's a straight shooter, been in business for 25 years, never steers anybody wrong....and he shows you a NEW in the BOX Model 70, with the new synthetic stock, AND a neat Tasco scope package, sling swivels, sling, ready to go....and Fred offers to laser bore sight it for you, free of charge....and all he is asking is $489.00, $500 even with tax....:p



THEN he casually mentions, unless you want to go USED....and pulls out a PRE-64 Model 70, MINT, with all the nice checkering, sharp and pointed, BEAUTIFALLY grained walnut....about 90%, a little blueing wear around the muzzle, and the action, where it SHOULD be, maybe a couple of minor "character scratches" on the wood and/or metal from some long ago hunt...

You work the action and it's SMOOTH as a baby's bottom on lanolin....you ask if you can dry fire it once and Fred says, OK, just ONCE :p and the trigger breaks like an icycle at around 18 oz or so...you look down the bore and it's a MIRROR, shiney and sharp, no marks at the muzzle.....you casually ask Fred what it guages and he says "funny you should ask, I just got this set of guages from Brownells in 06 I'm dying to try...and it guages a ONE at both the muzzle and in the chamber...Fred says, I doubt that rifle has seen more than a hundred rounds, tops....you look again, well, no scope, but the MOUNT threads look clean, all the screws in the action are sharp, no buggered screws, the recoil pad is original...Hhhmmmm....

You look at it AGAIN, closely, then ask casually, HOW much....and Fred says, "Well, I got it in trade from an old guy that used it to do what you are planning on doing, about 4 or 5 times, then it sat in his safe, it came with an old Leupold 4x scope that looks pretty good, but one of the rings was a little buggered, like maybe the rifle had fallen against something, so I took it off...I'll replace the rings with some new Leupold ones, and bore sight it with the old Leupold, and throw in a sling like that one on the new one...for, well, how about $500?"


Your call, Pat..."New or USED?":cool:


And we WILL get into that "analogy" to the car with no oil changes for 10000k later...Are you telling me you CAN'T spot them???? Even WITHOUT pulling a head????:eek: :) :D

[cec]

I will go back and choose an poll answer in a moment, but my selection isn't up there: Don't really care one way or the other. I look at the piece and the asking price. The better deal gets my vote.

For example, I bought a used .45 compact that was about $200 less than the updated new counterpart. Even with the deep cleaning, the new magazine, and spring I still saved a significant amount and ended up with a fine piece I still carry today.

On the flip side I purchased a used Sig Trailside that was nothing but problems.

My first gun I purchased new was a POS, that I traded in on much better used piece.

Recently I purchased a new .45 full size mainly because the used ones available were not what I wanted for various reasons, chief among the decision was that the difference between the used and new model was around $60. I figured for the extra money, get the new one.

Much like used or new cars, it's a crap shoot. Sometimes you win, sometimes you get burnt. You have to make your best guess at the time.

On a side note about the new vs used car debate. The main argument for a used car, the "A new one loses value right of the lot", I tend to push aside because I do not buy a car for it's resale value. There are very few cars that will not lose money, used or new, once they are driven off the lot. I buy the car that best suits my needs at the time. I have had good and bad cars both ways.

[Pistolenschutze]

You say you would NEVER trust ANY gun without thoroughly testing it...so explain to me WHAT exactly AT THAT POINT is the DIFFERENCE in your mind between one "Thoroughly Tested and found utterly reliable" that you bought USED, or the SAME gun purchased "NIB"?????

The difference is quite simple, Polish: With a firearm from a top-end maker, NIB, that I have carefully and thoroughly tested myself, I know, as closely as it is humanly possible to know, that the weapon has not been subjected to abuse, such as, for example, exposure to overpressure loads or other misuse. I know that I don't likely have a firing pin or a main spring near the breaking point due to metal fatigue or the like. I know, after I've tested it, that it will perform as designed. Granted, even new firearms can fail, but the odds are much more in one's favor with a new one than an old one. I agree, it is possible to buy excellent used firearms, and that they are usually much cheaper. For general use, like hunting or casual target shooting, a bargain is a bargain. When it's one's neck, or the lives of one's family at stake, however, I want the extra edge a new firearm offers, no matter how slight that edge may be.

[358 winchester]

It doesn't matter that much to me but I do like to check any gun NEW or USED before I buy. It would be nice if the seller would let me check it out for oh say twenty years before I spent all my money :D :D

[berto64]

Well, seems like that pore ol' horse has been beat to hell & back.

All of my long guns are used. All but 2 of my 1911's are used and every other firearm I own are used.

They all work fine and dependably.

[22WRF]

Very seldom buy new.
When I do it is not new for long only until I get to the range.
I own no NIB guns they are tools and were made to shot.
How many here have a Hammer NIB with papers?????

[polishshooter]

When it's one's neck, or the lives of one's family at stake, however, I want the extra edge a new firearm offers, no matter how slight that edge may be.


That's just it in a nutshell, PS. There is absolutely NO mechanical "edge" with new...except in your MIND, but if that makes you sleep better, it's no different than a lot of other worthless things in life we humans routinely fall back on for "comfort," "superstition," or whatever...


Just KNOW that just like black cats, walking under ladders, 13th Floors, Green Race Cars, not stepping on a crack, OR the foul line, $50 bills in casinos....Any random "New" firearms are NOT statistically more reliable than ANY random "Used" one....

Yes, "ABUSED" is a different story, and yes, maybe with guns we are UNFAMILIAR with, like me and say, an AR-15 or FNFAL type, I'm better off with "New" until I own one and can take it apart and KNOW it, but with ANY kind of experience and knowing what to look for, USED guns AND Used Cars, are not the "threat" you "NEW ONLY" guys make them out to be...those "worst case" scenarios of buying used carfs that were in a flood, or with engines ready to blow, or guns weakened with the mythical "high pressure" loads, are (a) so rare as to be statistically insignificant with the AMOUNT of Used cars or guns sold and (b) offset at LEAST one for ONE, (I'd say MORE!) by "worst case" NEW gun blow ups, malfunctioning with the first mag, or in the first 100 or so rounds, breaking a firing pin or extractor on the first shot due to manufacturing defects, bad springs, burrs, and plum MISTAKES on the castings or assembly line...which are NOT "statistically insignificant!" And that is NOT considering MOST shooters IMMEDIATELY have to spend time or money improving the "factory" trigger and/or sights on just about ANY "new" gun!

Even factory new AMMO is not statisically more reliable than "quality" HANDLOADS!!!! New cases either not to spec, with bad annealing, or even without FLASH HOLES are not uncommon! Overcharging and mislabeling happens all the TIME!

Ask Mickey Fowler who lost an international IPSC Match in the 1980s using FACTORY Remington .45 ammo because he shot all his reloads and didn't have enough for the "shootout...!" The case had no flashhole! What are the ODDS of THAT case fired at THAT time....WHAT if it was in "Self-Defense???" "New is better" is FICTITIOUS!!!


Just like the old "Monday" or "Friday" New cars from Detroit!:p That was NOT a "myth..."


Just don't bet your LIFE on that fictitious "edge" ALONE, any more than you would bet your life simply because you avoided walking under a ladder beforehand...

[Pat Hurley]

Ah Pat, you probably never buy 12 year old SCOTCH aged in USED bourbon barrels either because you get scared off by the born-on date too, right?


Lemme ask you a theoretical rhetorical question, and answer TRUTHFULLY please....:p


You get asked to go along on a "once in a lifetime" guided Elk hunt out west...you save and scrimp and come up with the $3500 or whatever you need to go along, then a month out it hits you like a ton of BRICKS...your "pristine" .32-20 lever action PA deer gun that you lavished all that care on since it was NEW probably ain't gonna cut it....:p


SOOooooo...you decide you want and need a .30-06...good for whatever you find out there, and you can STILL use it back east for deer...and you talk to your wife and you both decide have about $500 extra to spend, that's ALL....you are NOT independently wealthy, you have like 11 or 12 kids and maybe $1.380 in their college fund so far....since you bought all those NEW cars, but I digress...:cool:


SO you go into your local gun emporium, Fred's Shooter's Supply, and you knew Fred since your high school buddy introduced you, he's a straight shooter, been in business for 25 years, never steers anybody wrong....and he shows you a NEW in the BOX Model 70, with the new synthetic stock, AND a neat Tasco scope package, sling swivels, sling, ready to go....and Fred offers to laser bore sight it for you, free of charge....and all he is asking is $489.00, $500 even with tax....:p



THEN he casually mentions, unless you want to go USED....and pulls out a PRE-64 Model 70, MINT, with all the nice checkering, sharp and pointed, BEAUTIFALLY grained walnut....about 90%, a little blueing wear around the muzzle, and the action, where it SHOULD be, maybe a couple of minor "character scratches" on the wood and/or metal from some long ago hunt...

You work the action and it's SMOOTH as a baby's bottom on lanolin....you ask if you can dry fire it once and Fred says, OK, just ONCE :p and the trigger breaks like an icycle at around 18 oz or so...you look down the bore and it's a MIRROR, shiney and sharp, no marks at the muzzle.....you casually ask Fred what it guages and he says "funny you should ask, I just got this set of guages from Brownells in 06 I'm dying to try...and it guages a ONE at both the muzzle and in the chamber...Fred says, I doubt that rifle has seen more than a hundred rounds, tops....you look again, well, no scope, but the MOUNT threads look clean, all the screws in the action are sharp, no buggered screws, the recoil pad is original...Hhhmmmm....

You look at it AGAIN, closely, then ask casually, HOW much....and Fred says, "Well, I got it in trade from an old guy that used it to do what you are planning on doing, about 4 or 5 times, then it sat in his safe, it came with an old Leupold 4x scope that looks pretty good, but one of the rings was a little buggered, like maybe the rifle had fallen against something, so I took it off...I'll replace the rings with some new Leupold ones, and bore sight it with the old Leupold, and throw in a sling like that one on the new one...for, well, how about $500?"


Your call, Pat..."New or USED?":cool:


And we WILL get into that "analogy" to the car with no oil changes for 10000k later...Are you telling me you CAN'T spot them???? Even WITHOUT pulling a head????:eek: :) :D

I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me. :o

[polishshooter]

Hey PAT, don't worry, I've been known to talk out of both sides of my mouth before, ESPECIALLY the short time I worked for "Human Resources...":p :)


Actually, I know this is kinda like the "Ford-Chevy" thing, and I know that I sometimes let my passions get me into "hard and fast' when I OUGHTA' be in "generalities..."

Like I'm not saying their's NEVER a time to buy new, especially when you just HAVE to have that "new model" not available used 'yet) so you have no choice...

But I'm also prejudiced because I LIKE and USE old guns, and they are made to take a LOT of use and EVEN abuse...like I would stake my LIFE on my '97 WInchester, since I've used it virtually exclusively for deer since about 1990, and i know it so WELL...for something made in 1912 it's going to be working fine long after I'm gone...and if anything breaks, I can STILL get parts for it....


But it's kind of like my PASSIONATE defense of the .45 acp AND the 1911 auto types for defense AND CCW...but more times than not especially with light clothing when I DO carry CCW it's the sweet "little" 9x18 Makarov:eek: :p

But then again I DID buy it used....:D :D :D

Now calling me "cheap" is one thing, I prefer to be called "thrifty..."

But I believe MY circumstanes represent MORE shooters than you'd realize, family obligations, debts, bills, unexpected emergencies, USUALLY making enough to survive AND have a little fun, but a couple of forced job changes, and not a LOT for "extras...." and NOT from a "wealthy" background...

But now that the kids are out of college and we have a lot more "disposable" income, I STILL like the old used guns...AND probably have bought my LAST new car....


I was working on cars since I was a kid, I'm mechanically inclined, I ALWAYS liked to see how things work and tinker with them...NOTHING can't be "fixed" and even made BETTER than it was originally designed...parents that went through the depression taught me to "make do," throw NOTHING away, buy low sell high...

Want to go fishing? Dad's '67 16 foot Chrysler Lone Star with a WELL MAINTAINED '59 Evinrude and a '59 Elgin "kicker" can take you as FAR OUT into Lake Erie as you want to fish and get you home too...in the late 70s! And the only reason we moved UP to it was the 14 Thompson Dad got for a case of beer and refinished in the 60s and powered with the minty '55 Green Kirkhaefer Merc he bought for $50 was a little SMALL when the lake would kick up quickly:p BUT he sold that boat for a LOT more than he "paid" for it!:p

BUT I've managed to compete in IPSC, and build my own .45, (the FRAME was new...)and shoot and LOAD all those rounds without getting divorced or taking food from the table, so maybe I COULDN'T own a Nastoff or a Wilson, but I did OK, and had a LOT of fun and learned a lot....I RACED on a shoestring for a couple of seasons where "Money is speed, how fast do you wanna go?" and did OK too, and learned a lot and had a LOT of fun...

I've had a lot of OTHER "vices" too, refinishing an old "classic" Wood boat of my own to showroom condition. collecting my Milsurps, Fishing, hunting, Golf, Bowling, Tennis. lot's of others...but ALL the time on MY budget, never break the bank, don't BUY skill...or "prettiness..."

I actually kind of pity guys who HAVEN'T had the experiences I have had, and I'm living proof none of them HAVE to be "expensive...."...;)


But remember, POOR shooters have as much right to self defense, or hunting, or whatever, than RICH ones...just as POOR people have a right to DRIVE even if they CAN'T afford "new cars..."

We have to be careful NOT to look down our noses, or even assume they drive or shoot "crap," since they bought it "used...."

For ME it's a CHOICE borne by experience, but for SOME it's a necessity....

[a1huntingsupply]

I always buy new, but I could be tempted on a used one if the price was right.

[Bill DeShivs]

Guns are very simple mechanical devices. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if a used one is OK. Even if it isn't, damned few are truly unsafe. Parts are available.
I tend to not think like mechanically challenged people do when it comes to guns. I guess if I knew nothing about them I would only buy new.
Bill
www.billdeshivs.com

[rsm]

I shouldn't get in the middle of this since I know that I don't have near the technical knowledge that Pat and Polish have. However I have been shooting guns for nearly 50 years, and still have the 16 gage Stevens that dad gave me new for Christmas 40 years ago. I have two hand guns and a mini 14 that I bought new and one Muzzle loader that I won in a contest. Everything else is used. Total 4 shot guns, 6 rifles, two smoke poles and 4 pistols. I am not a collector, I just like guns and shoot everything I own. "except that WWII Japanese rifle dad brought home with him" So with that back ground and from the point of view of one of the majority of gun owners I will weigh in.
My funds are limited and when I buy a gun I don't part with it unless I don't like it. As for the hypothetical situation posed by Polish There is no question in my mind that given the choice between the NIB rifle and a pre 64 in mint condition for the same price which one I would choose. I can buy new any day of the week but a mint pre 64 is hard to come by. "Just kidding" The situation is not really fair because you have both guns at the same price and for most of us that is the biggest consideration. On the other hand I bought a used P38 at a gun show because I have always wanted one. It was a mistake as it had apparently been shot to death and would not hit a barn at six feet. I traded it for a used Dan Wesson 44 stainless that I absolutely love and will never part with. I have a Taurus 9mm that was NIB that I am happy with as a carry, but would trade for something else.
In short I can afford more and better if I buy used.
Life is a gambol step up to the table and take your roll.

[polishshooter]

rsm, while I'm sure Pat and I both appreciate the comments on our "technical knowledge," don't let THAT fool you...:D

It really ISN'T so much "technical knowledge" going on here, it's more like "flailing opinions...":D And some of us may be just a little better and/or faster or less inhibited :D expressing the few facts we have that we hopefully base those opinions ON, than others not as verbose as we and others are, who just probably might have a WHOLE lot more "technical knowledge' than we do!

People who AREN'T as vocal in a lot of the arguments may be just the ones we all should listen to!:cool:

You know the old saying, "everybody's entitled to an opinion, it's just when some people SHARE theirs the problems start....;) "


Welcome, and I'd welcome you even if I felt the OTHER way too...and so would Pat....

[obxned]

I buy either, but prefer NEW....

If money was no problem, I'd buy all new, but since cash is often scarce, I don't mind buying a nice used gun. Most folks who own guns don't shoot more than a few hundred round through it in a lifetime. Used often isn't even really broken in yet.

[22WRF]

Good to see the largest number prefer NEW making used out of them so the rest of us can get a good deal' :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[White Hawk]

For me, it would depend on the gun. I kid one of my co-workers that I'd rather have a used Sig than a new Ruger... (he carries a Ruger and makes fun of my expensive Sigs, but I always out-shoot him)

[wolfdog]

There is nothing the matter with buying new guns, if it were not for people buying them I would not have had the chance to buy them a couple of years later for sometimes half the price. If you feel more comfortable buying new then by all means do so if you can afford it. If you are comfortable buying used just like buying a used car check it out or have someone who knows what they are doing check it out. I have bought many used cars and guns and have never had a saftey issue come up that was not adjusted for in the price of the item purchased. I have had new guns and cars not live up to the performance I expected of them, same with used but no saftey problems that I was not expecting to have to deal with.
All that said even though I have purchased about ten new handguns in my life my favorite carry piece is a 40 year old S&W revolver.
I have purchased about 6 new center fire rifles my favorite and most accurate deer hunting rifle is a 100 year old swedish mauser.
My daily driver is a 21 year old suzuki samurai with over 300k on the clock and I would not hesitate to drive it anywhere I have to go.

[Taurus_9mm]

I primarily buy new guns but have bought used guns in the past. The best part for me is finding a 'used' gun, that has had very few rounds put through it and marked down $100 or more than it would be NIB.