Guest
03-08-2003, 08:25 AM
106RR196LIB
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 134
(6/15/01 2:35:37 pm)
| Del All Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The famous execution picture was completely misunderstood.
The normal procedure for a captured SUSPECTED terrrorist does include a trial. This is not a trial in the US sense of the word. They beat and incarcerate the suspect. There is repeated interrogation. This is not western style -- it is brutal but stops short of torture. The suspects are held in an old house called "house of VCS" in pigeon Viet/English.
The trial consists of paperwork/evidence which is sent to the province capitol. There are recommendations from villagers, local politicians, police, military, etc. The suspect is not present or allowed to dispute the evidence during the trial. He/she is allowed to dispute the accusation in writing before the trial. This is considered justice in that country. It is the way all trials are held. They do not have a jury system. Persons convicted of terrorism would normally be executed. There is no money to feed and house terrorists while people in the country side are starving. You would be forcing the victims to starve while the food was being given terrorists.
The person being executed in the photo is not a VCS. He is a VC caught in the act. The execution system is a reaction to the VC tactic of "revenge for three generations" That is they kill three generatons of the loyalist family. Grandparents, parents and children are all executed. Or in some cases, it would be parents, children, grandchildren. The concept is to wipe out the family line. The Vietnamese word for life is "xa"
It also carries with it the connotation of ones place on the ancestral line and sometimes one's place in the spectrum of the village life. You have not only your own life to lose but your families place in time. This is critical to Buddhist thought.
There will be nobody left to worship ancestors.
The VC being executed had participated in a terrorist tactic which includes the execution of the children while the parents are forced to watch. It is the closing of a family line.
This exact tactic is what alows the VC to control the villagers. They also used it to get ARVN's etc. to betray us. There were many people brave enough to risk their own lives but few who would risk the lives of their grandchildren.
It seems unfair to condemn the Vietnamese for executing terrorists. We just executed Mc Veigh! The only differences were technology, money and culture. Morally there is no difference. Mike H
Genog
Moderator
Posts: 112
(6/15/01 2:41:30 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
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Thanks for that info Mike. It has put a whole different light on that piece of history.
Geno G
Misterstan
Moderator
Posts: 295
(6/15/01 4:16:11 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike H.,
This is exactly where our country always gets into trouble.
The news media is so powerful in our country (and in many cases too lazy to put together the entire story) and when they print something all we have to go on to understand what is happening is our own way of life.
Just recently we had an episode where some of our people landed a plane in China. Prior to that, a Chinese pilot lost his life by hitting that plane. Nobody could understand why we would not just say "we are sorry" and have our people free to be sent back to us.
When we are dealing with a different culture, we must learn how to work with that culture or else what we do will be for naught.
An example is when the U.S. Navy turned over our PBRs - River Patrol Boats - to the Vietnamese to use for their own protection, the first thing they usually did was remove one of the two huge batteries and sell it to buy food and supplies. The PBR only requires one battery and the other one is used as a backup.
If one battery stopped working, the PBR would become completely inoperable. The US has been working on this principle for a long time, but the Vietnamese considered it a waste to have and extra battery that may never be needed.
Stan Lambert
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
homer4
Moderator
Posts: 903
(6/15/01 5:55:39 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agre with the fact that cultural differences are often not taken into account and prejudice to ones thinking can drive ours or their responces.
Not to argue your example Stan but perhaps in the instance given...perhaps greed was driving the removal and resale...corruption is our nature and all cultures have that element lurking about.
I wish many of us Americans could have seen the goodness of the Vietnamee and not the ugly...in turn I wish that they could have seen the goodness in us as well and not the ugly.
...and two hard boiled eggs.
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 50
(6/15/01 10:00:50 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from the Viet Cong Strategy of Terror, Douglas Pike, p. 23-39)
The Tet offensive should be reviewed especially for those younger than 35 as this group consists of more than 50 per cent of the population and knows very little about what happened outside of the partial information recorded by American and Communist media.
Looking back at the news covered on American media and world wide the picture being seen the most is the picture of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan who shot a Viet cong captured in Saigon; the picture of the American Embassy attacked by Vietcong guerrillas and the picture of the Hue Citadel occupied by Vietcong for almost a month. Ironically, people of the world were not informed about the fact that the Vietcong shot by General Loan had massacred a whole family where the head of the family had been the General's subordinate. People were never informed abou the difficulties faced by the security force to defend the American Embassy from the Vietcong's commandos. Nobody paid attention to loss of a whole Marine company of the Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces (RVNAF) in just an attempt to cross a street to regain the flag pole by the Citadel in Hue. Neither was the decapitation of nine family members of Lieutenant Colonel Tuan in the outskirts of Saigon mentioned. And worse of all, the massacre of Hue, where thousands of unarmed citizens were clubbed to death and buried alive, were treated as minor news and practically escape world's attention.
The examples above just illustrate a few flaws in the world's media asfar as the coverage of the Hue massacre and the whole Vietnam war in general. The world' media have reported only half of the truth in the intention to serve some short term political agenda. It is necessary to mention this fact for the following reason:............
106RR196LIB
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 135
(6/17/01 2:22:22 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hue Massacre -- we may never know the real count!
In addition to killing whole families in Hue the VC stuffed the cadavers into the city water supply. This would have far reaching effects on the families who survived. Every drink of water brings back the memory/taste of the deceased. Disease was rampant with rotting bodies in the water supply.
The VC admitted killing over 2800 at Hue. The VC went door to door with a list of family names. If they didn't find Mom and Dad they killed granny and the kids. Those who participated in the live burials were never identified by the NVA. Many people feared that history would repeat itself when Saigon fell. Still surprises me that so many officers left their families behind considering what they thought might happen to them.
Mike H
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 51
(6/17/01 8:52:58 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Officers leaving their families behind??!! All of the VN officers that came into Utapao on the 29th/30th had beaucoup family members with them. The majority of the refugees were civilian family members. Only the enlisted, who were forced to bring them, had no family with them. Sickening.
homer4
Moderator
Posts: 913
(6/17/01 9:13:38 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a Tragedy Mike...with ya!...Sickening is right Catch...
the scenes at the compound's gates!...the airport!...the motocycles racing along...some firing weapons!...
On and on and on and on!...pushing choppers overboard!...
Seeing Ky!!!...tailored uniform...bright scarf and those Damn aviators!!!...no fin eyes!!!...just aviators...his scarf or what ever you call that neck crap...and tailored uniform!!!
Damn War Flattens me.
...and two hard boiled eggs.
Edited by: homer4 at: 6/18/01 9:25:55 pm
hansenjim
Member
Posts: 16
(6/19/01 11:59:18 am)
| Del Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreamcatcher -
May I ask where you found the above quote from Pike's Viet Cong Strategy of Terror?
Could you post a link to it? I could sure use it in an argument I'm writing.
Jim
dap22
Senior Chief Moderator II
Posts: 731
(6/19/01 1:10:48 pm)
| Del
ezSupporter
Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim:
Try this............
www.nufronliv.org/english/document/1968_hue/hue4.htm
Edited by: dap22 at: 6/19/01 2:16:12 pm
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 56
(6/19/01 2:34:54 pm)
| Del Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's it. thanks Dap22
hansenjim
Member
Posts: 17
(6/19/01 3:56:09 pm)
| Del Re: Where's the quote?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreamcatcher -
That doesn't have the same language as your quote above.
It's the actual the language I'm looking for.
Jim
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 134
(6/15/01 2:35:37 pm)
| Del All Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The famous execution picture was completely misunderstood.
The normal procedure for a captured SUSPECTED terrrorist does include a trial. This is not a trial in the US sense of the word. They beat and incarcerate the suspect. There is repeated interrogation. This is not western style -- it is brutal but stops short of torture. The suspects are held in an old house called "house of VCS" in pigeon Viet/English.
The trial consists of paperwork/evidence which is sent to the province capitol. There are recommendations from villagers, local politicians, police, military, etc. The suspect is not present or allowed to dispute the evidence during the trial. He/she is allowed to dispute the accusation in writing before the trial. This is considered justice in that country. It is the way all trials are held. They do not have a jury system. Persons convicted of terrorism would normally be executed. There is no money to feed and house terrorists while people in the country side are starving. You would be forcing the victims to starve while the food was being given terrorists.
The person being executed in the photo is not a VCS. He is a VC caught in the act. The execution system is a reaction to the VC tactic of "revenge for three generations" That is they kill three generatons of the loyalist family. Grandparents, parents and children are all executed. Or in some cases, it would be parents, children, grandchildren. The concept is to wipe out the family line. The Vietnamese word for life is "xa"
It also carries with it the connotation of ones place on the ancestral line and sometimes one's place in the spectrum of the village life. You have not only your own life to lose but your families place in time. This is critical to Buddhist thought.
There will be nobody left to worship ancestors.
The VC being executed had participated in a terrorist tactic which includes the execution of the children while the parents are forced to watch. It is the closing of a family line.
This exact tactic is what alows the VC to control the villagers. They also used it to get ARVN's etc. to betray us. There were many people brave enough to risk their own lives but few who would risk the lives of their grandchildren.
It seems unfair to condemn the Vietnamese for executing terrorists. We just executed Mc Veigh! The only differences were technology, money and culture. Morally there is no difference. Mike H
Genog
Moderator
Posts: 112
(6/15/01 2:41:30 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for that info Mike. It has put a whole different light on that piece of history.
Geno G
Misterstan
Moderator
Posts: 295
(6/15/01 4:16:11 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike H.,
This is exactly where our country always gets into trouble.
The news media is so powerful in our country (and in many cases too lazy to put together the entire story) and when they print something all we have to go on to understand what is happening is our own way of life.
Just recently we had an episode where some of our people landed a plane in China. Prior to that, a Chinese pilot lost his life by hitting that plane. Nobody could understand why we would not just say "we are sorry" and have our people free to be sent back to us.
When we are dealing with a different culture, we must learn how to work with that culture or else what we do will be for naught.
An example is when the U.S. Navy turned over our PBRs - River Patrol Boats - to the Vietnamese to use for their own protection, the first thing they usually did was remove one of the two huge batteries and sell it to buy food and supplies. The PBR only requires one battery and the other one is used as a backup.
If one battery stopped working, the PBR would become completely inoperable. The US has been working on this principle for a long time, but the Vietnamese considered it a waste to have and extra battery that may never be needed.
Stan Lambert
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
homer4
Moderator
Posts: 903
(6/15/01 5:55:39 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agre with the fact that cultural differences are often not taken into account and prejudice to ones thinking can drive ours or their responces.
Not to argue your example Stan but perhaps in the instance given...perhaps greed was driving the removal and resale...corruption is our nature and all cultures have that element lurking about.
I wish many of us Americans could have seen the goodness of the Vietnamee and not the ugly...in turn I wish that they could have seen the goodness in us as well and not the ugly.
...and two hard boiled eggs.
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 50
(6/15/01 10:00:50 pm)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from the Viet Cong Strategy of Terror, Douglas Pike, p. 23-39)
The Tet offensive should be reviewed especially for those younger than 35 as this group consists of more than 50 per cent of the population and knows very little about what happened outside of the partial information recorded by American and Communist media.
Looking back at the news covered on American media and world wide the picture being seen the most is the picture of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan who shot a Viet cong captured in Saigon; the picture of the American Embassy attacked by Vietcong guerrillas and the picture of the Hue Citadel occupied by Vietcong for almost a month. Ironically, people of the world were not informed about the fact that the Vietcong shot by General Loan had massacred a whole family where the head of the family had been the General's subordinate. People were never informed abou the difficulties faced by the security force to defend the American Embassy from the Vietcong's commandos. Nobody paid attention to loss of a whole Marine company of the Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces (RVNAF) in just an attempt to cross a street to regain the flag pole by the Citadel in Hue. Neither was the decapitation of nine family members of Lieutenant Colonel Tuan in the outskirts of Saigon mentioned. And worse of all, the massacre of Hue, where thousands of unarmed citizens were clubbed to death and buried alive, were treated as minor news and practically escape world's attention.
The examples above just illustrate a few flaws in the world's media asfar as the coverage of the Hue massacre and the whole Vietnam war in general. The world' media have reported only half of the truth in the intention to serve some short term political agenda. It is necessary to mention this fact for the following reason:............
106RR196LIB
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 135
(6/17/01 2:22:22 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hue Massacre -- we may never know the real count!
In addition to killing whole families in Hue the VC stuffed the cadavers into the city water supply. This would have far reaching effects on the families who survived. Every drink of water brings back the memory/taste of the deceased. Disease was rampant with rotting bodies in the water supply.
The VC admitted killing over 2800 at Hue. The VC went door to door with a list of family names. If they didn't find Mom and Dad they killed granny and the kids. Those who participated in the live burials were never identified by the NVA. Many people feared that history would repeat itself when Saigon fell. Still surprises me that so many officers left their families behind considering what they thought might happen to them.
Mike H
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 51
(6/17/01 8:52:58 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Officers leaving their families behind??!! All of the VN officers that came into Utapao on the 29th/30th had beaucoup family members with them. The majority of the refugees were civilian family members. Only the enlisted, who were forced to bring them, had no family with them. Sickening.
homer4
Moderator
Posts: 913
(6/17/01 9:13:38 am)
| Del Re: Terrorist Rights?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a Tragedy Mike...with ya!...Sickening is right Catch...
the scenes at the compound's gates!...the airport!...the motocycles racing along...some firing weapons!...
On and on and on and on!...pushing choppers overboard!...
Seeing Ky!!!...tailored uniform...bright scarf and those Damn aviators!!!...no fin eyes!!!...just aviators...his scarf or what ever you call that neck crap...and tailored uniform!!!
Damn War Flattens me.
...and two hard boiled eggs.
Edited by: homer4 at: 6/18/01 9:25:55 pm
hansenjim
Member
Posts: 16
(6/19/01 11:59:18 am)
| Del Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreamcatcher -
May I ask where you found the above quote from Pike's Viet Cong Strategy of Terror?
Could you post a link to it? I could sure use it in an argument I'm writing.
Jim
dap22
Senior Chief Moderator II
Posts: 731
(6/19/01 1:10:48 pm)
| Del
ezSupporter
Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim:
Try this............
www.nufronliv.org/english/document/1968_hue/hue4.htm
Edited by: dap22 at: 6/19/01 2:16:12 pm
dreamcatcher27371
Member
Posts: 56
(6/19/01 2:34:54 pm)
| Del Re: Viet Cong Terror
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's it. thanks Dap22
hansenjim
Member
Posts: 17
(6/19/01 3:56:09 pm)
| Del Re: Where's the quote?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreamcatcher -
That doesn't have the same language as your quote above.
It's the actual the language I'm looking for.
Jim