Looking at 10 mm's?

[rjw158]

I looking at purchasing a 10 mm, all input so far has pointed me towards the Glock model 20. Anyone have any experience with the other options available like the Kimber,CZ also I see EAA makes a 10.
Thanks,
rjw158

[TranterUK]

I cant comment on the guns but am familiar with the 10mm.

Long ago I had two 10mm handguns, the Colt Delta Elite and a Bren Ten. Yes I did, and I loved the caliber. It was powerful though manageable and accurate. Like a .40s&w on steroids.

[rjw158]

Is the recoil as bad as everyone says? I have a couple of 45's and myself do not think the recoil, even shooting +p reloads is that bad. I have heard people compare the recoil or barrel jump of the 10mm to that of a 45. A poor grip and shooting stance will definitly allow the weapon to jump or kick.

[TranterUK]

Is the recoil as bad as everyone says? I have a couple of 45's and myself do not think the recoil, even shooting +p reloads is that bad. I have heard people compare the recoil or barrel jump of the 10mm to that of a 45. A poor grip and shooting stance will definitly allow the weapon to jump or kick.

A poor grip and stance will allow almost any caliber to jump and kick.

Given the luxury of time and space, I recommended the American weaver stance but with the Israeli leg position, with feet further apart then most US instructors teach. For stability.

[user]

I think the range of calibers from .38 Special +P through .357 magnum in revolvers, and the vast array of options in the 9mm category, make anything larger pointless unless you're talking "rifle".

The eighth milkshake doesn't taste as good as the first - law of diminishing returns. you get way too much bang for your buck with anything larger, and it doesn't appreciably contribute to stopping power. I think you need a minimum kinetic energy level sufficient to crush bones, but, like Frank Zappa said, "anything over a mouthfull is wasted."

[LDBennett]

Some of us have big mouths to fill!

I have lots of pistols and revolvers of all calibers. I like the big calibers regardless of the recoil as I am not particularly recoil sensitive, except when it gets to 44 mag levels. So I have 357, 44 special, 45LC, 40S&W, 45ACP and 10mm.

As for 10 mm, the recoil is not abusive but my Colt Delta Elite does a funny twist when fired with full loads. For it I down load it to 45ACP levels (same as 40S&W level) and find it most comfortable to shoot and with a recoil level that is the same as 45ACP. Big bullets at less than 1000 FPS give a big push instead of a sharp recoil as you get in 357 Mag. I prefer the big push, if I have to choose.

My 10mm is a Colt Delta Elite (first year production) and is an excellent gun but better after I added some after market 1911 race parts and pieces. My CZ97 is in 45ACP as is my EAA Witness (CZ clone made in Italy). In 10mm both would be good choices as both are big heavy guns that help tame recoil. The worst possible choice for a heavy recoiling gun has to be a light plastic gun, like the Glock. It would be punishing in full load 10mm, in my opinion.

For 10mm I recommend the Colt, the CZ (if they make one in 10mm but it would probably be based on the CZ97 frame), and the EAA Witness. The Witness can be a bit of luck getting a good one (mine is a good one) if you believe what other posters here say. In 40S&W my CZ75B is quite good and I recommend it too.

As an aside the 10mm was developed first and the 40S&W was devleoped later as a 10mm short to reduce the power level and recoil (for women and small men FBI agents for the FBI by S&W). 40S&W fits in 9mm frames so most 40S&W guns are smaller than most 10mm guns. If you have small hands this could decide which you choose (10mm or 40S&W). In general the 45ACP, the 40S&W and down loaded 10mm all fall into the same power level where as full load 10mm is a level above the others in power level.

LDBennett

[rjw158]

Thanks LD,
That was just the response I was looking for, I wondered about the Glocks weight and the full power loads I might want to use at some point. I also own quite a few large caliber handguns and recoil is not an issue with me. Looking at the EAA Witness it looks to be well built and availability might be the only issue here. I guess it could be compared to the Stoeger and Beretta as far as clones go. I will have to keep an eye out and maybe find a used Smith or go the EAA route,
Thanks again LD,
rjw158

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

Some EAAs and Baby Eagles tend to be clones to the CZ's. Stoeger is owned by Beretta and are usually cloned by Taurus.

I've always wondered about the 10mm. I hear they make great hunting companions and supplements to the hunting rifle when being charged at by whatever you are hunting (or getting surprised by something else).

[mrkirker]

I guess I too, have a 'big mouth'!
I have an older S&W 1006, totally stock. I don't notice the recoil being any heaver than a full load .45 acp. Sometimes weight is a 'good thing'! It is 'full sized', though, so there are instances where concealed carry is a bit challenging. That's when I go for the 4006.

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

Baggy pants and a long-ish t-shirt go a long way.

[Vladimir]

I would personally wait until the 10mm takes off a little more and there are more options. If it doesn't get more attention soon, there is probably a reason...

[Mjolnir]

I have shot the full sized Golck in the 10 mm and love the round. The twist that LD mentioned is something I hear a lot of people mention with the round. I like the Glock (it seems to be an inexpensive yet quality firearm, if you can deal with the feel of it)but I'm sure that some of the other manufacturers make good platforms for the round. The one thing I did notice is that when I was looking into the EAA pistols I read a few posts where people mentioned the slide on the gun splitting on them with that specific caliber. If I recall correctly it was most common with the pistols that had the compensator built in to the barrel. This isn't infallible information but something deffinately worth looking into. The big thing that has kept me from getting a 10mm myself is the cost of rounds, if I were to get one I would feel the need to start reloading my ammunition. Just my .02.

[noslolo]

When I used to do the fugitive recovery thing, my partner had a S&W 1006 and I loved it. I never heard anything great about them, but we never had a problem.

[LDBennett]

Vladimir:

"wait until the 10mm takes off a little more"

The Colt Delta Elite in 10mm was introduced over 20 years ago and the 10mm cartridge is a few years older than that (Bren Ten). If it "ain't took off yet" it never will! The number of "options" has decreased over time, not increased. Besides, the ones left are good guns worthy of considration.

It got its glory deflated when the FBI found the recoil too great for women and small statured men and, at first, had it downloaded when they adopted it as the Bureau gun. S&W then shorten the case, downloded it, and called it the 40S&W. The 40S&W became the FBI caliber of choice.

LDBennett

[U-turnwilly]

I have had a Delta Elite, a Glock Model 20, a Peter Stahl conversion and my current is a Dan Wesson 1911.

The Glock 20 is the only thing out there (that I know of) that was designed to handle full house 10mm from the start. My Glock was flawless but after I quit shooting IPSC I traded it off - big mistake. I think it is the best 10mm I have ever owned.
U-turnwilly

[DWARREN123]

For the money I do not believe you can beat the Glock 20/29 . Not the prettiest but they work.

[Gene Seward]

I shot my daughter's fiance's Glock in 10mm and found it very manageable. The only thing is the big grip. I have small hands for a big boy, but it was not bad shooting at all. As said the Glock is a fantastic gun and if you ever, and I mean ever had a problem with the gun they will more than gladly fix it. My buddy had his for years and got a notice to send it in as they had found the inside parts may not stand up to salt water enough. Fixed free of charge. Not much salt water here in Arkansas. LOL

[rjw158]

I picked up a S & W 1006 a few weeks ago, no complaints at all. This pistol shoots like a dream, recoil with full power reloads not bad no worse than my .45. Thanks for the feed back.
rjw

[jinn]

I looking at purchasing a 10 mm, all input so far has pointed me towards the Glock model 20. Anyone have any experience with the other options available like the Kimber,CZ also I see EAA makes a 10.
Thanks,
rjw158

rj, my 2 cents: 10mm is an all but dead caliber to the popularity masses, but that don't mean we still can't enjoy it! One guy likened it to a semi-auto "357". The S&W 1006 you mention is an excellent gun, it's heavy, but handles the 10 very well. The Glock 20 of course holds more rounds, if that is a factor for you. The Glock also is more ruthless in it's recoil.

Smith made a revolver, the 610, in stainless for a short time; it was a good choice for those liking 10mm and a wheel gun. They are now EXPENSIVE!

Incidentally, if no one has mentioned it, we can thank our marvelous FBI for the demise of the 10mm. Smith was promoting it actively, for both FBI contract, and civilian market, but when the cry-babies prevailed, .40 came to the rescue, and the 10 was effectively dead. A real shame. I still LOVE it.

[rjw158]

I still do not understand why the FBI threw the 10 mm aside, after all they are professionals, one would think the the Agency would welcome a semi-auto pistol that is on par with the 357/ 41 mag and able to shoot out to 50 yards accurately. The recoil should be a trade off to the stopping power available with a highly concealable high power weapon.
Just my .02
rjw

[h2oking]

In my opinion which is worthless there wasn't anymore no need for the 10mm than there was for the 41 Mag, both of which came out so they say for law enforcement. Like a lot of new loadings they came about to sell guns and not for anyother purpose. The 10mm fully loaded works at much higher pressures then does most other auto defense hand gun cartridges other than perhaps the 38 super and the 357 sig. The cartridge has been around for over 20 years and hasn't gone anywhere that I am aware of and if it were me buying a big framed Glock it would be in 45acp. I have a first year production Colt in 10mm that I lost interest in not long after buying it 20 years ago. The only reason I have kept it is because when I got it home I realized that the four digit serial number was the same as my address and it makes for good conversation. The gun functioned well for what little I shot it but the violence of the recoil made it take longer to get back on target than even my hotter loads in 45acp in a like gun.

[LDBennett]

The FBI dumped it because the small statured woman agents could not shoot it well because of the guns large size dictated by the hot cartridge and because of the excessive recoil. Temporarily they made up 10mm FBI loads that mirrored 40S&W loads that were yet to come. Finally they got that load level into a new cartridge, the 40 S&W, with the guns to go with it. S&W, I think, was the first with the 40S&W guns. They were and are made up on the smaller frame of the 9mm guns rather than on the 45ACP frame size.

The cartridge was designed for the Bren Ten pistol that never really got into full production becase of magazine problems. The company went belly up before any sort of regular production started in earnest. A lot of new Bren Ten owners were left with pistols and no magazines. It was supposed to be a big CZ75 by design when CZ's were not sold here as they were Iron Curtain guns and could not be imported. The design features were those of the founder of tactical shooting (can not remember his name ... just passed away...wrote a short column for one of the gun mags in his later years... senior moment I guess).

Norma designed the cartridge and was left with a cartridge and no gun for it. Colt stepped up to the plate with a 1911 version called the Delta Elite. I bought one the first year of production. I too found the recoil not abusive just irritating as the gun with full load cartridges (1200FPS with a 200gr bullet) twisted in my hand with every shot. As I reload, I down loaded to what became 40S&W levels (about equivalent to 45ACP, energy wise). The gun shot OK but shot 30% better with after market trigger parts, a single rate heavy recoil spring, a fitted barrel bushing, and a Dwyer Group Gripper. The gun is now accurate. And as any Colt from 20 years ago beautifully finished.

LDBennett

[noslolo]

As much as I enjoyed the 10mm isn't going anywhere fast, well it goes to the target plenty fast, but you know what I mean.

[Bindernut]

Looking at the EAA Witness it looks to be well built and availability might be the only issue here. I guess it could be compared to the Stoeger and Beretta as far as clones go. I will have to keep an eye out and maybe find a used Smith or go the EAA route,
Thanks again LD,
rjw158

Before the CZs were commonly imported to the US, the EAA Witness family (and Tanfoglio TA-90 & Baby Eagle too) were the only game in town for a CZ-75 design pistol. This was mid 80s. I've had a chance to shoot several of the older EAA Witness and TA-90 pistols and was impressed with them until I got to do a side-by-side with a real CZ-75 (actually the ambi version, CZ-85).
For the money those EAAs are still a good gun, but the trigger needs a little help to compare with the CZs. Not sure how the new ones compare nowadays...by reading stuff on the net there are quite a few complainers on the quality. If you can find one and try it out I still think it would be a good one to consider if you're set on the 10mm caliber.

The Dan Wesson 1911 is the only 10mm I can find in the current CZ catalog. Have never seen one in 10mm, but the DW1911s I've seen are a well built machine.

The only 10mms I've actually had a chance to shoot were older Auto-Ordnance 1911s. A smith in SD (from Pierre I think, I forgot the guys name many years ago) used to build up 10mm/38Super swap-top 1911 sets. A couple of them turned up at the local club for pin/plate matches and I got a chance to run a few relays with one of the 10mms. Recoil wasn't much more than the full-tilt .45 loads I was using at the time but it's got one heck of a muzzle blast. The 38 Super (loaded major...as was the current fad for a few years) was easier on the hand but still had a nasty bark. I still wouldn't mind building up a convertible setup like those someday.

[UncleFudd]

Ld and all

Remember when the Soldier of Fortune magazine first began the full color adds for the Bren10 in 1978 or 79 I believe and as so many others I put my $1,000 bucks on the line for one of the first, "collectors" in the presentation box with spare mags and on and on.
Well they never lived up and a whole bunch of people myself included who did not get their guns and many did not get their money back either.
I still think about it and how beautiful that gun was and would really like to have had one but never got back in the mood to buy again.

You are absolutely right about the FBI and the damage to the 10MM. They got their asses handed to them in one of the most studied gunfights in their history with 2 bank robbers in downtown Miami. None of them could bring down the bad guys with the guns they had which were 9MM and 38 spcl. They then began searching for a powerful round and took the 10MM to do the job. The problem was they had the right gun with all the power in the world but did not practice with or shoot them enough to get over the recoil adjustments. Their agents are also as you said small in stature with lots of women and then issue a full size 1911 frame with all that power, stick a fork in it. As soon as they bad-mouthed the cartridge and dumped it for the 40 the end was nigh as they say.
It has been downhill every since. IMHO the 10 will never grow beyond what it is today and in fact will continue to die the death of a rag doll due to the increasingly high price and availability of ammo.

I personally love the cartridge and shot it in both the D Elite and my Gl 20. I believe my 20 handles it better than my DElite but that may be a personal thing.
I agree with Tranter and his stance, but that is the stance I use for all pistol shooting. However i think he is right on as to the best stance to help absorb and to work through the recoil of this gun/caliber.

I have now due to medical/physical reasons become extremely sensitive to recoil with my long guns as well as handguns. All my pistol shooting is now reduced to my 9MM lightweight commander or my mod 19 with 38 spcl rounds for all of my practice and carry weapons.

I believe the original Q had to do with recoil and whether the 10MM is too much and my opinion after several thousand rounds per year out of my two choices is that the round is little more powerful in recoil than my 45 ACP lightweight commander. I believe my mod 19, 2" with 158 gr 357 rounds has a much sharper felt recoil than my 10s. LD pointed out the "push" of the 10 or 44 mag etc as opposed to the sharp snap of the 357 and I find this to be an excellent comparison and again IMHO he is right on.
Perhaps the best answer to the initial question.

Good luch and for all of you who still have the Delta Elite, hang on to them. For those who have the 10MM in any other frame, enjoy as there will not be many more of them made IMHO.

Anyone still have one of the Witness 41AE? Another cartridge that came about during this FBI 10MM fiasco? I still have mine and it is fun to shoot as well although underpowered.

UF

[rjw158]

Thanks for all the input everyone, I have been well educated over the last 2 months on the good and bad points of the 10 mm. I have up to this point put 400 + rounds through my S&W 1006. Everything from 135 grains to 200grains, 1100 fps to 1500 fps, I most likely will be purchasing another in the near future, the 10 mm has become a unique caliber of sorts. Some people I have talked to praise it and others have nothing but negative comments. I guess it's just what one likes to shoot and some people like to be different. Myself, I like the versatility of the caliber. I have seen in the last issue of Combat Handguns that Dan Wesson is now making a couple new 10 mm's due to popular demand, can this be somewhat of a resurrection for the 10? This makes around 5-6 companies that now produce a 10 mm pistol.
Thanks again everyone,
rjw

[noslolo]

I would love it if the 10mm made a come back. Now to find the money for a S&W 1006!

[troutwest66]

The design features were those of the founder of tactical shooting (can not remember his name ... just passed away...wrote a short column for one of the gun mags in his later years... senior moment I guess).

LDBennett

LD, you're thinking of Jeff Cooper who started Gunsite.

On the FBI (and no offense to any LEO who actually shoots and knows guns)... here is another agency that does not seem to hire or train shooters as officers. It is sad that not more LEOs are real shooters. Too many just carry the pistol because it's part of the gear like their cuffs. My daughter knows more about guns (she'll be 12 Sept. 5) than a lot of our patrolman, and they don't care. So with the FBI we have a bunch of limp wristed pansies who don't want to be uncomfortable and being a government agency they take the easy way out.

[AngelDeville]

don't rule out the smiths....

http://www.johnwmyers.com/1076-new-left-sm.jpg

http://www.ozarkguns.com/pistols/Smith%20&/smith_pistol_files/170244_large.jpg

I may end up with a glock 20, but I'd prefer a Smith and Wesson

[rjw158]

troutwest66, I know what you mean when you mentioned that some LEO only carry a handgun because it's part of their gear and really know nothing about their duty weapons or ballistics at all. Recently at the local gun shop a rookie officer was in to look for a off duty firearm, it took everything the shop owner could do to talk this guy out of buying a .22 cal, yes the .22 has probably killed many a person, but their are so many concealed carry options nowadays at reasonable prices that will give you at least a snowballs chance if need be.
rjw

[Big Bore]

I own an EAA Witness Match and the Witness Hunter, both in 10mm. I don't find the recoil of either to be anything close to "abusive". Strange that the larger 6in barreled Hunter has more recoil than the Match, which is super mild, and one of the most accurate semis I have ever shot. The quality of the EAAs I own (3) is very high, and their price is good. Maybe I have just been lucky with the ones I've bought, but I would highly recomend them. The Match can be converted to different calibers (including 45,40,38sup,among others) with a kit from EAA. I like the CZ configuration a lot and these are great looking guns IMO. The 10 round is great. It's too bad there are so many people who "wimp-out" before they have even tryed it! I have a S+W 1066 (10mm) layed away at my local shop. Can't wait 2 blast away with it. I don't like the look of Glocks, but since I'm obsessed I'll get one soon enough. It will be the 10mm.

[2000man]

Anyone considering a 10mm ought to consider the 3rd outing of the Bren Ten here... http://vltor.wordpress.com/

Otherwise, anything Dan Wesson or Smith & Wesson is 1st class.

If Vltor's new "Bren" takes off, there could indeed be a resurgence in the 10mm??

My quote:

"Shoot early and shoot often!"