Auto rounds in revolver?

[Vladimir]

I have seen very few revolvers that are designed/capable of shooting auto rounds, and I was just wondering why this is. Say what you will about any round, but is there a specific reason no one (or no one big) is making a revolver that can shoot the same rounds I'm putting through my auto? Sure would be nice to only have to buy one caliber :rolleyes:.

Just wondering if there is an actual reason other than "that's the way it is."

[TranterUK]

Interesting. I always thought it was a matter of supply. Given vast quantities of .45acp and not so many .45 Colt, a little machining and some half or full moon clips, and your away!

[Vladimir]

Interesting. I always thought it was a matter of supply. Given vast quantities of .45acp and not so many .45 Colt, a little machining and some half or full moon clips, and your away!

Thats what I've seen before, some .45ACP revolvers- not sure if they were manufactured or machined that way, saw them at some gun shows. Specifically I'd love a .40 or even 9mm heh. Seems like there should be a reason they aren't made, otherwise it could be an awfully lucrative business deal you would think. I mean S&W comes out with the first/only 9mm revolver, regardless of what people think about 9mm etc. it is going to sell decently.

[artabr]

Thats what I've seen before, some .45ACP revolvers- not sure if they were manufactured or machined that way, saw them at some gun shows. Specifically I'd love a .40 or even 9mm heh. Seems like there should be a reason they aren't made, otherwise it could be an awfully lucrative business deal you would think. I mean S&W comes out with the first/only 9mm revolver, regardless of what people think about 9mm etc. it is going to sell decently.

The S&W 547 was a 9mm revolver, the S&W 610 was a 10mm revolver ( I think it also could fire the 40 S&W, I might be wrong on this.)
Korth chambered their revolvers in 9mm. (if you had about 5 or 6 grand :eek: :D).
Ruger had the SP 101 and the Speed - Six in 9mm. They also chambered the Blackhawk in 9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W and 45ACP. They also chambered it in .30 carbine, while not a pistol cartridge, it is a rimless semi-auto type round.
Tarus and some of the lesser known makers also produce or did produce such revolvers.


Art

[Vladimir]

Thanks, there must be a reason they didn't really take off, which would explain why they aren't made much today (at least that I can find).

[artabr]

I think the main reason for slow sales was the fact with a semi-auto you could carry twice the amount of loaded ammo in a package that was just about the same size. Ruger and Tarus may still make 9mm revolvers, it's just that they are not that common.

Art

[PPK 32]

I think the main reason for slow sales was the fact with a semi-auto you could carry twice the amount of loaded ammo in a package that was just about the same size. Ruger and Tarus may still make 9mm revolvers, it's just that they are not that common.

Art

Good point, never really thought about it. And just to add to this, my Berreta which will hold 15 rounds has all that weight in the grip, not over your hand. Don't know if this would make a lot of difference, just something else to add.

[delta13soultaker]

From what I've seen of Ruger, the .45acp and 9mm revolvers are offered as a combo option to the .357/.38 and .45 Colt. It's really not a bad idea. If your 1911 or XD or whatever is not available for whatever reason, you can just switch cylinders in your Ruger and feed it .45acp or 9mm in a pinch.

One of my favorite revolvers is a S&W 1917. It's a .45acp that was made to issue during WW1 when 1911 production couldn't keep up. S&W recently began making them again.

On the .40 S&W in revolvers...revolver manufacturers already have the .45 and .355/9mm barrels, cylinders, dies, tools, etc etc in great quantity. .40 S&W has no common rimmed equivalent, and there is no great advantage in a .40 S&W revolver to create enough demand to design one, so there's not really any reasonable profit to expect from building a revolver chambered as such.

[artabr]

Years ago I had a Blackhawk .357/9mm combo. I loved it but I sold it. I'm a FOOL.:o :D Thats another one for Tanter's list in the G.D. forum.

Art

[Pistolenschutze]

Thanks, there must be a reason they didn't really take off, which would explain why they aren't made much today (at least that I can find).

Mostly because they are pretty much a PITA, Vlad. The only way to get an un-rimmed cartridge to work properly in a revolver is with a moon or half-moon clip, which is slow to load, rather awkward to carry, and the clips themselves are easy to lose. Most auto rounds headspace on the top of the cartridge case, not on the rim, so they will usually work in a properly chambered revolver even without the moon clips, but unfortunately the revolver ejector won't grab them and eject them; the rim is not wider than the casing as with revolver cartridges. They have to be unloaded one at a time.

[armedandsafe]

I loved my Colt's 1917. The SP101 in 9mm wasn't bad, either. The Colt's went with a cop when he transfered (never made it to turn in...long story.) The SP101 was stolen from my son when his car was broken into.

Just found this:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_53/ai_n27421572

Pops

[delta13soultaker]

Cool article. How could ya not love a 1917:D

Isn't the dimensions of the Colt 1917 a bit bigger than the S&W?

The finish on all of them varied a lot, but I have to say overall the S&W had a better looking finish usually than Colt. Of course that was probably no big concern to the guy holstering it in muddy trenches, but looking at the ones out there about 90 years later I have to say some of those S&W were pretty enough that a German should be proud to get shot by them.

Here's a pic of a modern S&W 22-4 1917 NIB with color case hardened frame. I've seen pics of a few originals that match.

[Terry_P]

One advantage that a 45 auto revolver has over a regular revolver with speed loaders is the loaded clips are very fast, read faster on the reload. They can be carried as a speedloader would and the 45 acp is a great fight stopper. Granted the loading and unloading of the moon clips is a pain and a tool us usually used to do so. The revolver will fire repeatedly if it's limp wristed, shot upside down and is safe.

[TranterUK]

Couple of thoughts, first I recall seeing an Israeli revolver on 9mm p, looked like a Smith K frame. I think they were around in the 60s.

Interestingly the overlap between auto's and revolvers goes further than you might think.

One of the main reasons for the success of the Glock in police sales is that it operates like a revolver, as in draw and fire. Thus they required little in the way of re training. A sort of revolver with more ammunition.

[Xracer]

Back at the original question.....

The primary reason is that most semi-auto pistol rounds are rimless, and most revolver cartridges are rimmed.

Rimmed cartridges don't feed thru a box magazine well, so they're not generally used in semi-autos.

Rimless cartridges generally don't headspace or extract well in a revolver without using "moon clips" (which, as PS says, are a PITA).

[ponycar17]

I've always wondered why anyone would want to keep track of half-moon clips... :confused:

[ehughes]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_cat_search.php?cated=26&manufacturers_id=&ITATR_list%5B1%5D=1902&ITATR_list%5B2%5D=&ITATR_list%5B3%5D=425&ITATR_list%5B4%5D=&ITATR_list%5B5%5D=&ITATR_list%5B6%5D=&ITATR_list%5B7%5D=&ITATR_list%5B8%5D=&ITATR_list%5B9%5D=&ITATR_list%5B0%5D=

9mm revolvers

[AngelDeville]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/angelpena/DSCF1224.jpg

[armedandsafe]

Half moon clips are no problem at all to keep track of. Fill them when you first buy them and keep them filled.

You don't have to worry about their springs taking a set, either. :D

Pops

[Waldo Pepper]

Here is my 10 mm S&W 610-3 and it shoot 40 cal S&W auto rounds it I wanted. I am thinking about sending it out to have chambers reamed out for the 10 mm Magnum round which is the same or little better actually then a 41 Magnum do to so many bullet types and weight available for the 10mm/40 cal use. And let me say the first round at 100 yards would be fatal to average human or canine. At 50 yards it will take your ears off or dot your "I" if need be guys.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x245/oldnavy6393/610-305.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x245/oldnavy6393/610-306.jpg

[nightfighter]

Mostly because they are pretty much a PITA, Vlad. The only way to get an un-rimmed cartridge to work properly in a revolver is with a moon or half-moon clip, which is slow to load, rather awkward to carry, and the clips themselves are easy to lose. Most auto rounds headspace on the top of the cartridge case, not on the rim, so they will usually work in a properly chambered revolver even without the moon clips, but unfortunately the revolver ejector won't grab them and eject them; the rim is not wider than the casing as with revolver cartridges. They have to be unloaded one at a time.
Moon clips slow to load??? Do not tell that to Jerry Miculek, "The fastest revolver shooter alive." I have seen filmed demonstrations of Jerry fire his revolver (I think it is a 7 shot 38 Super), and do a reload, and fire all seven again...it is something to watch! Speed in using ammo in moon clips seems to be the proper technique, ala Jerry, and lots of practice...but the reason he says he uses moon clips is for the purpose of speed in reloading his revolver. Fully loaded moon clips fit in round pouches just like HK style speed loaders and logically would be no more awkward to carry. And, only the empty moon clips would be likely to be lost. One advantage over HK type speed loaders is that the moon clips hold the rounds more securely, preventing an accidental dumping of the rounds when handling (something I have done with HK speed loaders). A "drawback" of moon clips is that they usually need a de-mooning tool to separate the clips from empty casings.

[Waldo Pepper]

Actually I find they are actually easier to demoon or moon then putting rounds into most hi-cap magazines w/o some type of magazine speed loader. And I have arthritic hands guys.

[Alpo]

Moon clips slow to load??? Do not tell that to Jerry Miculek, ...

I believe he meant that it was slow to load the cartridges into the moon clip, not that it was slow to load a gun with the moon clip. While it is, admittedly, quicker to load six 45ARs into my revolver than it is to load six 45 ACPs into a moon clip, with a little practice I have found that I can load six into a clip in roughly the same amount of time it takes to load seven into a 1911 magazine. It is harder on the fingers, though.

[Ursus]

Moon or half moon clips can be bent, compromising reliabilyti. So, for a police service or civilian defense carry handgun they´re a no-no

[Waldo Pepper]

Moon or half moon clips can be bent, compromising reliabilyti. So, for a police service or civilian defense carry handgun they´re a no-noThat is funny consodering how much and how often the magazine is the cause of a automatic hand guns failure. The good quality moon clis are very sturdy and are less prown to failure from drop damage or dirt/sand clogging then any magazine.

I know what I am talking about because I have owned and shot automatics for 50 plus years and would for reliabality rather have a revolver.

[Kestral]

Have 2 S&W 547s ,one std,one with Target sights,have only used the std so far,shoots really well.Kestral pics inc.

[Ursus]

I know what I am talking about because I have owned and shot automatics for 50 plus years and would for reliabality rather have a revolver.

I would too, but one firing rimmed rounds.

[Kestral]

Have 2 S&W 547s,one is std mode,the other fitted taget sights,(this one never fired).I normally reload lead 124grn in the std which shoots really well.pics enclosed Kestral.

[Waldo Pepper]

I would too, but one firing rimmed rounds.There is a saying among guys who use moon clips, only guys who never used them bad mouth them. :D

I have talked to a few that have said they had used them and didn't like them, but I always doubted they use them however. :p

[nightfighter]

Moon or half moon clips can be bent, compromising reliabilyti. So, for a police service or civilian defense carry handgun they´re a no-noWWI Colt and S&W M1917s used moon clips without a problem in the muddy trenches and under war conditions. Bends in clips are apparent, and would be discarded instead of reloaded. In a police service role, they would remain in the round leather ammo holders on the officers duty belt until needed...not likely to be bent before use. And, for civilian defensive use, would be inspected by laying on a flat surface before being charged with rounds. In either case, I will concede that they could be a problem if you can provide citations where bent moon or half moon clips caused a problem that was not the fault of inspection before charging. Many things "can be...", (are possible), but that does not mean that there is a problem inherent to the moon, half moon system.

Addendum: Half moon clips are spring steel; not soft steel that is easily bent. A .45 1911 magazine if stepped on would more likely be rendered inoperable or unreliable than the a half moon clip would be under the same conditions.

[ponycar17]

To me, the revolver is just begging for Magnum loads and that's what I would carry in such a machine. Ammo compatibility wouldn't bother me much as I rather enjoy picking up a new caliber to tinker with. In a revolver, given the same barrel length, your 9mm Para rounds are going to move at a slightly lower velocity than they would out of a semi-auto because of the cylinder gap (correct me if I'm wrong). For that reason, if you're interested in a revolver with a round roughly the same diameter (for whatever reason), get a good .357 and shoot .38s when you're just plinking.

[Ursus]

WWI Colt and S&W M1917s used moon clips without a problem in the muddy trenches and under war conditions.

As I understand those revolvers were issued because:
a) There were not enough tooling for making enough 1911's
b) Official U.S. Military cartridge was the . 45 ACP not the .45 Colt .
Without these 2 conditions everyone and his brother would've been carrying a 1911 (Read magazines, no half/full moon clips).
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[nightfighter]

As I understand those revolvers were issued because:
a) There were not enough tooling for making enough 1911's
b) Official U.S. Military cartridge was the . 45 ACP not the .45 Colt .
Without these 2 conditions everyone and his brother would've been carrying a 1911 (Read magazines, no half/full moon clips).
Correct me if I'm wrong.Apples compared to oranges. Unreliably of half moon clips was not addressed by your post.

[Waldo Pepper]

As I understand those revolvers were issued because:
a) There were not enough tooling for making enough 1911's
b) Official U.S. Military cartridge was the . 45 ACP not the .45 Colt .
Without these 2 conditions everyone and his brother would've been carrying a 1911 (Read magazines, no half/full moon clips).
Correct me if I'm wrong.Quite correct in that info as the military move away from one shot, one kill attitude
to the spray and pray doctrine. It is the same reason that police departments moved from revolvers to semi auto pistols, and put the emphasis more on function such as changing magazines, clearing jams and rapid fire rate with less accuracy.

As for as loss of velocity goes you do have it only part correct, if gap is kept to the .004 to .006 inch there is very little loss of velocity as in blow-back auto weapons. I can load 10 mm auto rounds and have it clock at say 1300 FPS out of my S&W 1006 5.25" barrel and then shoot same round in my S&W 610-3 with a 6.5" barrel and gain anywhere from 10% to 25% increase in velocity depending on powder type and bullet weight used.

Now if you had proper training and a 10 round or less magazine in your automatic, and what I mean by proper training is how to shoot and hit with more accuracy I would be all for automatic as a police duty weapon. But when you are just taught how to clear jams (that should tell you something there) on the automatic, rapid fire with no real accuracy then I would never go along with the auto over the revolver.

Just remember while you are in the field the one thing they drill into you about your automatic is how to clear stoppages.

[ponycar17]

As for as loss of velocity goes you do have it only part correct, if gap is kept to the .004 to .006 inch there is very little loss of velocity as in blow-back auto weapons. I can load 10 mm auto rounds and have it clock at say 1300 FPS out of my S&W 1006 5.25" barrel and then shoot same round in my S&W 610-3 with a 6.5" barrel and gain anywhere from 10% to 25% increase in velocity depending on powder type and bullet weight used.

That's interesting but I do have to comment on the 1.25" barrel difference in length. I wouldn't think that a 10mm load would burn completely in a 5.25" or 6.5" barrel so that the effect would be that a longer barrel would also equal a big difference in velocity. It would be interesting to see the same barrel lengths compared. I'm not knocking your point as it is perfectly valid based on your experience.

[Waldo Pepper]

That's interesting but I do have to comment on the 1.25" barrel difference in length. I wouldn't think that a 10mm load would burn completely in a 5.25" or 6.5" barrel so that the effect would be that a longer barrel would also equal a big difference in velocity. It would be interesting to see the same barrel lengths compared. I'm not knocking your point as it is perfectly valid based on your experience.I guess I should have just been a little more in depth and stated that with the 4" 610 will still have a higher velocity, with Glock 20 and after market 6" barrel the velocity increase from barrel length still leaves it lacking the revolver velocity. I think the boys figured it would take an extra 1 1/2 inch over the length of a revolver to get them to equal out.

Myself having been a strong automatic fan for about 50 years over the revolver, I had a lot of trouble coming over to revolvers. But the ballistics seemed to have proved me wrong, but the real convincer was the spray and pray type of training and all the attention to how to clear jams and finding a proper ammo that does the job, but still feeds into the chamber w/o jamming.

After doing a lot of research I still rely on a automatic for home defense, but not the one most here would pick. I now have a FNH Five Seven in 5.7x28 mm Caliber. In some essence a hopped up 22 magnum.

There were several reasons for the choice is reverse order of choice for me:

1. ultra high velocity rounds
2. no over penetration problem
3. extreme shock damage to organs from rounds that either tumble or explode depending on ammo used
4. good penetration of clothing before bullet super expands as most varmint ammo does.
5. exceptionally flat shooting as any varmint round should be.
6. and then there is the lack of heavy recoil and slide slamming that makes so many people bad shots with 10 mm or 45 ACP and makes it easy for small framed people and people with arthritic hands like mine to shoot and shoot w/o fear of the recoil effect.

Also for the none reloading people a 50 round box is average of $22, where a 20 round box of SD ammo in 40 cal or larger will cost $20 to $25 or more.

[dogngun]

I own 2 revolvers chambered for .45 ACP. They are both Model 1917's, one a Smith & Wesson made in about 1937, the other a Colt, made in 1919. Both are interesting revolvers, and I would not mind a smaller.45 revolver as a carry gun. The old Smith has become my favorite revolver in over 40 years of handgun shooting. I use full moon clips in both these revolvers without any problem, even when I occasionally carry one or the other of these great old revolvers. Ammo for the revolvers was issued already in the clips, and there were special pouches to carry loaded full moon clips. They are very fast to reload, even faster than modern speedloaders. Both Colt and S&W made their .45 ACP revolvers for the civilian market for years after the war, and I believe their large size was the limiting factor in their sales, not the caliber or the clips. Both revolvers can be fired without the moon clips, they just wou't eject the fired cases - they must be removed and re loaded singly, which is not a great problem either.
I love my 1911's, and my DA pistols, but these old revolvers are very hard to beat. They are reliable, accurate and powerful, and both very well made. They are large and heavy, but the 1911 is no lightweight either.
Smith and Taurus made revolvers in .45 ACP in various sizes, and Taurus made a small revolver in 9mm P. For all the people -even me-who claimed they wanted such a gun, they were not great sellers.
Smith makes several large frame revolvers now in .45 ACP in the N-frame, and they are great accurate revolvers and quite expensive.

IIRC Ruger made a version of their Security Six in 9mmP for a while as well.

mark

[Ursus]

Apples compared to oranges. Unreliably of half moon clips was not addressed by your post.

And I didn't intend to. I was checking if those facts were correct.