Iver Johnson 1st model .44 questions.............

[Mark K]

Hello all, I have been collecting older H&R revolvers for some time, my favorites being the 44 Webley/Bulldog "American" models. I load the diminutive .44 bulldog, and both my 44 H&R's are shooters. This is a really fun round @ 460 fps and muzzle energy of 80, it's basically a paperweight launcher.

I recently acquired this Iver .44, I believe it is the first model. It is different from the h&r's in that the cylinder has stepped chambers, the h&r's are tapered. Not all that unusual I guess but the measurements are a little odd for either the Webley .436 or the Bulldog .440

On the tapered h&r cylinder throats, the measure out at about .441 to .443 and a bullet fits just snugly inserted into it, the bullets are .44 as a bulldog should be.
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv8.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv9.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv6.jpg

On the Iver throats, it's a different story, they are measuring out at about .432 at the most, and a bullet does not fit through like the tapered h&r, which if the Iver is a 44 Webley only, the bullet should technically be .436

I guess the question is, was the Iver 44 Webley ony? and .332 seems pretty tight for a .336 bullet. Is the 44 Webley a heeled bullet like the Bulldog? I don't see a need for stepped cylinders for a heeled bullet.
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv7.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv5.jpg


Any help would be appreciated, here are some more pics of the three amigos.
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv16.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv3.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv13.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv11.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv1.jpg
http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp104/Mbrgr/iver/iv14.jpg

[Mark K]

By the way, the serial number is 3390.

[b.goforth]

your american bull dog is a first model.

AMERICAN BULL DOG FIRST MODEL------------------------------1882-1884
AKA: LION DOUBLE ACTION; OLD HICKORY DOUBLE ACTION
Sold under the Brand names Lion, Old Hickory, Navy Favorite and Ajax Army also. Offered in four frame sizes and six calibers. Saw handle shaped grip frame and Eagle design on the hard rubber grip panels. All are Nickel finished. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire, medium frame .32 rimfire & centerfire, large frame .38 rimfire & centerfire, extra large frame .44 Webley & .44 Bulldog; Barrel length and shape: small, medium & large frame 2 ½ inches round, extra large frame 2 7/16 inches octagon, 6 inch barrel length in extra large frame part octagon & part round; Weight: small frame 9 5/8 ounces, medium frame 11 ½ ounces. large frame 19 5/8 ounces. ex. Large frame 19 7/8 ounces; Cylinder capacity: small frame 7, medium, large & extra large frame 5; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, medium frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 4 5/16 inches, extra large frame 4 7/8 inches: Frame length: small frame 4 1/8 inches, medium frame 4 ½ inches, large frame 4 7/8 inches, ex. Large frame 4 7/8 inches; Overall length: small frame 5 5/8 inches, medium frame 6 1/8 inches, large frame 6 ¾ inches, extra large frame 6 ¾ inches; Extra large frame with 6 inch barrel: weight 19 7/8 ounces, overall length 10 13/16 inches. MODEL NAME MARKED ON TOP STRAP
VALUE: Medium & large frame 32 & 38 calibers-100%=$400 60%=$175
Small frame 22 rimfire caliber Extra large frame 44 caliber 25 % premium over Medium and large frame models

as i do not reload i am not qualitfied to comment on the exact difference between the 44 webley and the 44 bulldog cartrdges. i do know that the advertizing tor the 44 caliber american bull dog and the american double action is for the 44 webley. it has alway been i understanding the 44 bulldog cartriidge is nothing more that a reduced loading for the 44 webley (loaded only in the USA).
bill

[Mark K]

Thanks, the .44 bulldog is shorter @ 0.95 vs 1.10 for the Webley. Bullet diameter for the bulldog is .440 and .436 for the Webley. Neck and base diameters are virtually identical. I think I'll try and find some Webley dies and see what I can come up with. Thanks again for your input. MK