View Full Version : What to get?
06-12-2003, 10:05 PM
I've been thinking about getting another bolt action rifle. I've got a nice hunting rifle ( Stainless Ruger with a big scope and everything), but I want something that I can throw on my back and carry around the farm and not worry about scratching it or tearing it up. I want it to be cheap and cheap to shoot. I'd like it to be able to shoot about 5 inches or less at 100yrds, even if I can't make it happen at first. I want open sights or maybe peep sights and a caliber that will carry at least 200yrds. I was thinking of an old Russian surplus rifle I saw at a show for about $120. It shot 7.65x54 and was ridiculously long. Does anyone know anything about the 7.65x54 round? I know that it's cheap to shoot if you go with surplus ammo. Do you think this would fit the bill, or should I search for a cheap old 30-06 and pay about twice as much for "cheap" ammo? I'll mostly be playing around with this rifle, shooting from offhand a lot, from a bench, and from a prone position.
Thanks for any input, guys and gals.
06-12-2003, 10:32 PM
It sounds to me like you are on the right track getting one of the old mil surp Russians.
06-13-2003, 01:56 AM
I am not familiar with the 7.65x54 ammo, but the 7.62x54 is a good round for plinkin. I agree the old mil surp Russian would probably do what you want it to. Another one for plinkin you might consider is an SKS. They can be had fairly cheep and the ammo (7.62x39) is inexpensive also.
06-13-2003, 06:51 AM
Another thing with an SKS is they are pretty short and they come with a sling.
06-13-2003, 07:16 AM
The rifle you're referring to that shoots 7.62x54R is a Mosin Nagant. They come in all shapes and sizes. If the one you looked at was "ridiculously long", then it was probably a 91/30, which is a full-length rifle. If you like that caliber but want a shorter rifle, then go with one of the carbine variants. The M44, M38, and 91/59 are much shorter. Below is a picture of my M44s.
The 7.62x54R round is a rimmed cartridge that is comparable in power to the 30.06 round. It is useful and versatile. I buy military surplus in this caliber, and it ends up costing me about 10 cents per round. Check out Aim surplus http://www.aimsurplus.com or any of the other mil-surp suppliers for that ammo. The Hungarian ammo is good, but stay away from Albanian.
Also, be advised that military surplus ammo usually uses corrosive primers. So you'll need to pay close attention to your cleaning methods to prevent rust.
Mosin Nagants are loads of fun, and you'll be hard pressed to own only one. I've got three more on the way that I ordered a few days ago, and I'm probably going to order me a couple more M44s in the near future. Interordnance has them right now for $39.95 each, with accessories (sling, ammo pouch, cleaning kit) and free shipping. http://www.interordnance.com
06-13-2003, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the info. Those are some nice looking rifles you got yourself there. I know that I said the 91/30s were "ridiculously long", but I think they look pretty cool. I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.
1. Do you know if the 91/30's are any more accurate than the M44's? I would assume they are, since all the "sniper rifles" are of the long 91/30 variety.
2. Do you know of any good deals on the 91/30's? I'd be willing to pay a little more for a little more accuracy, but $39.95 for an M44 sounds almost too good to pass up.
3. Do the Nagants have sights similar to an SKS?
4. Have you ever put a scope on one or are the original sights plenty good enough? If you have, was it worth it?
5. Have you ever seen someone sporterize the stock on a 91/30 similar to the cut down M44s?
6. Last question, how many rounds will a Mosin hold in the magazine?
Thanks a lot Sniper.
06-13-2003, 03:27 PM
1952 you are gonna get in trouble! Does the BATF know that you have rifles with bayonets attached to them? :eek: Thats a nice pair of rifles you got there.
06-13-2003, 03:29 PM
1. The 91/30 is inherently more accurate due to the longer barrel. But your mileage may vary. Obviously it will depend on the shooter, the condition of the bore and crown, the ammo you're shooting, etc. But in general, yes the longer barrel will give you more energy (more velocity) and a more stable trajectory, leading to better accuracy. The only reason the Russians developed the carbine versions were for applications where a full-length rifle was impractical. The troops fell in love with it and pretty much abandoned the longer barrel Mosins. Russian accuracy wasn't all that great to begin with, and they prefer throwing masses of men against a target rather than using accurate "stand off" weapons. If I were a Russian and knew that I was going to have to storm a hill regardless of how accurate my rifle was, I would probably prefer the shorter carbine too.
2. The 91/30 I just bought came from Aim. It is listed at $89.95 and includes accessories (sling, ammo pouch, bayonet, cleaning kit, oiler bottle). The only reason I bought it from them is because they had good deals on the M38 and 91/59 too, and I wanted to place one order and save on shipping. Aztec has a good deal too, at $79.95. It includes all the same accessories except the cleaning kit. Those are $19.95 by themselves, but shipping is only $10. Since this is your first Mosin, I would go with Aim in order to get all the accessories that you'll need. Shipping will probably be $15 or $20, but you'll get that cleaning kit (which has the firing pin protrusion gauge that you'll need). And I've had nothing but good luck with Aim.
3. Mosin Nagant sights are very similar to the SKS. It's a standard leaf rear sight. The front sight is usually not a post like the SKS though. It's not adjustable for elevation; only for windage. However, front sights vary between Mosin models. It does have a front sight hood like the SKS. Here's a picture that shows the 91/30:
4. I don't scope any of my milsurp rifles (I have one that was bought scoped but can't change it back because it's missing the front sight). If you want a scope, I recommend a scout mount that replaces the rear sight. It won't ruin your collector's value and lots of people say that this type of scope setup is superior to regular scope setups because you get a better overall sight picture.
5. There are lots of aftermarket Mosin stocks available in synthetic brands. I've seen everything from your regular Monte-Carlo stock to the scout style stocks. Again, I don't mess around with sporterizing my milsurps.
6. The Mosin Nagant magazine holds 5 rounds.
Hope this helps! And let me know if you have any more questions.
06-13-2003, 03:59 PM
Hey Thanks Sniper,
There's a gun show coming my way in a couple of weeks. I think I'll cruise it and try to find a nice 91/30. If I find a good deal on an M44, though, I might have to buy it instead.
Thanks for all the info, pics and links.
06-13-2003, 04:53 PM
No problem, potato_sniper. Hope you find a good one.
FWIW, I just got an email from my rep at Century. Here's what they have at the moment:
RI660G - Mosin Nagant M91/30 Rifle Cal. 7.62X54R Good Condition $49.87 each
RI715GC - Russian M44 Rifle w/ Laminated Stocks Cal. 7.62X54R Good Condition w/ Cracked Stock $49.87 each
In my book, that's a fairly good deal if you're not interested in accessories. If you want all the goodies, then I'd look around at gunshows or order from Aim. But if all you wanted was just the rifle, then $50 is a darn good price for a 91/30.
Just thought I'd mention that. :)
06-13-2003, 05:33 PM
I have a 91/30 and a couple of M38s. The '38 is one of the nicest "walkin' around rifles" you could ask for. The balance in the hand is superb. The long rifles are easier to shoot at extended ranges due to the sight radius but my 38s are just as accurate as the rifle.
The M44 is probably better to shoot because the bayo will stabilize the muzzle somewhat. The surplus 7.62x54r is plenty dirty and corrosive but the S&B ammo is pretty darned accurate in my rifles and cheaper than American commercial centerfire stuff.
I haven't tried the 91/59 but it's just a cut down 91/30 and they are cheap, too. The Mosin is cheap to buy, cheap to feed and very user friendly. You can't do much better for a knock around gun--they are designed to be Russian peasant proof.
Get a Finn M39 and fall in love!
06-13-2003, 06:40 PM
Same as wuzzagrunt says...Get a Finn M39 and fall in love! ...7.62x54...What a cannon!...http://images.deviantart.com/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
06-19-2003, 01:23 PM
If you get a M44 here is a hint for accuracy. Shoot with the bayo extended. Shooting without the bayo extended will cause the thing to be off. It appears the Russians took the baynet into account when designing it. I have a 91/30 and it is very accurate even using surplus ammo.
06-19-2003, 01:35 PM
Hey swarzdk, welcome to TFF! Glad to have you participating!
That is very good advice, and I forgot to mention that. You are absolutely correct in that the Russians sighted the M44 in to be used in combat conditions. Extending the bayonet is the proper way to fire the rifle. You can accommodate for it by adjusting the windage on the front sight, but it's so much more fun to shoot with the bayonet extended. Not to mention it helps a bit more with muzzle rise by moving the center of mass farther forward.
Of course, eventually the bluing will cook off from the huge fireball that the M44 belches out. :eek:
06-19-2003, 02:16 PM
7.62x54 rounds in the russian dragunov have made 1500 yard shots and taken targets down. its a round to be reckoned with.
I just read american riflemen, there was a .223 in there a varmit gun under $400 single shot set up, VERY acurate sub .75 moa.
or get yourself a ranch rifle in a .357 mag or a .44 mag. those can carry I belive
06-19-2003, 07:30 PM
Not only is the fireball a most satifying event but if you happen to be at the range with new shooters the sound, the fireball, the extended bayonet and a strange look in your eye will get you alot of attention. Pulling the new guys chain is good sport.
06-19-2003, 10:03 PM
What was that .223 you were talking about? I think I'll just go for the mosin right now, but I might look into it later. I was thinking it would be nice to be able to hunt with this rifle if I wanted to, so a .223 would be slightly on the small side. But, I'm still very interested in maybe getting into some competition shooting later on. I know, .75moa is a little on the large side for serious competition, but it's way better than I can shoot right now. Plus, it would be nice to have a super accurate rifle without much recoil. That way, I couldn't blame the wondering shots on the gun or the recoil. Did the gun break open in the middle or was it a single shot bolt action?
06-20-2003, 12:32 AM
May 2003 Guns & Ammo
H&R Ultra Varmit $254.95, $299.99 w/Cabella's 3-9x outfitter
avail. in .223 and .243. Its a single shot break open. 24 inch heavy contour barrel, overall length 40 inches approx 7.5 lbs, blue barrel, case-hardened reciever. This gun is described as one of the best deals "a lot of gun for a little money." Groupings are impressive at 200 yards and awesome at 100 yards not would you would expect for this price. This is the one I mentioned in particular
Winchester Model 70 Coyote. Bolt action, 22-250, .223, and .243. 24 inch medium heavy barrel, overall 44inches, no sights, but drilled and tapped for scope mounts, 9 pounds stainless barrel, matte blue reciever $705. @ 300 yards this was 2 1/2 inch groups.
CZ Model 527 Varmit. Bolt. .223, 24 inch barrel (heavy), total length 43 inches, weight about 8 lbs. $776. Sub MOA gun @ 100. @ 200 1 1/2 inches.
PMing you other info
06-20-2003, 12:49 AM
oh yeah nothin' wrong with the mosin, I was thinking of getting a similar gun.
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