Pinfire, rifled barrel blunderbuss?

[micromontenegro]

I really hate to make my first post without pictures- those will come late this afternoon-, but I need to ask, as I have never seen the like of this "blunderbuss" I bought last night.

At first sight, it is a shorty (think DAG) breechloading blunderbuss. Pinfire, about 16 gauge. About 60-65mm chamber. Underlever lock. But then it gets weird: the first four inches or so of the barrel are deeply, quick-twist rifled! then, you have about five more inches of smooth, flaring bore. Kind of a reverse Paradox! It could be that the smoothbore section is separate, as a barrel extension. The gun looks like a well-made one, and fit seems excellent to me.

The only markings I could find last night were Le Perron and a crowned D, both in the lock below the barrel. The gun once had a silvery finish, most of it gone now, and is liberally but roughly engraved. The stock is nicely chequered, and its furniture is, I think, silver or silver plated.

It has a spring-loaded part on the top of the barrel that- I think- serves both as a safety and as an extractor. Maybe as some kind of sight, too.

I was thinking this was some kind of ornate flare gun until I saw the rifling.
What do the experts think? Thanks in advance for your replies!!!!

Of course, you will have pictures as soon as I get home from work. And BTW, my name is Santiago, and I am writing from Caracas, Venezuela.

[Jim Hauff]

Santiago - Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a very interesting item you have there. We looking forward to seeing some pictures. One question - are you saying that the chamber is actually 60 to 65 mm in diameter? I'm pretty sure you mean .60 - .65 INCHES, approximately 16 ga. shotgun bore.

[micromontenegro]

Santiago - Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a very interesting item you have there. We looking forward to seeing some pictures. One question - are you saying that the chamber is actually 60 to 65 mm in diameter? I'm pretty sure you mean .60 - .65 INCHES, approximately 16 ga. shotgun bore.

Sorry, Jim- in my haste I neglected to write that the chamber is about 60mm in length. It is, indeed, about .65 inch. in diameter.

Thanks for the welcome! :)

[StoneChimney]

Crafty Belgians.

I have seen a small number of flared-bore guns that had the initial section rifled then the remainder toward the muzzle smoothbore. Of course, since the bore flares outward rifling would be useless once the bore diameter becomes larger than the projectile, so typical rifling won't work on that type of gun.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h377/stonechimney/buenos_aires_pistol_5.jpg

Would love to see pictures of yours.

[deadin]

Interesting!
The flared muzzle supposedly was meant as an aid to loading in muzzleloaders.
(You could quickly toss on a handfull of most anything that would fit the bore.;) The flare doesn't really help with dispersion.
Now, why would it be on a breechloader?? My WAG might be that the "paradox" rifling would disperse the shot and maybe the flare would restrict it before it got too far out of line.

Of course it could have been just for the intimidation factor and the rifling was to give a little more with slugs.

[StoneChimney]

Designed to fire both ball and shot pinfire cartridges.

The flare on the blunderbuss was primarily to ease speed of loading while mounted or moving, or in close quarters. The practice of loading scrap iron, stones, etc, was not commonplace since it often damaged the barrel; however, loading round shot was easier with the flared muzzle.

In the mid-1850's it was believed that the flare would in fact disperse the shot pattern widely. Haven't seen the pictures of this particular gun yet, but judging from the description I would imagine it was designed as a personal defense firearm capable of firing both shot or 16ga pinfire ball cartridges.

Think Howdah.

[micromontenegro]

Think Howdah.

That's what I've been thinking

[micromontenegro]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco9.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco8.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco7.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco6.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco5.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco4.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco3.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco2.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco1.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/Trabuco10.jpg

[micromontenegro]

What I saw last night as a crowned D is in fact a starred D!

[grcsat]

1860-1870 Buenos Aires Pinfire Blunderbuss Made in Buenos Aires Argentina. The rifled bore. Uses a 19mm bullet. The shell being 6.3cm in length.

Value I don't know.

The barrel flare was for intimidation only. Not for shot or anything else.
Came in two styles , pistol grip and rifle stock.
Most have a E. Paris stamp on the barrel.

[micromontenegro]

The only remotely similar thing I have ever seen, was a pistol grip one marked Buenos Ayres indeed. But I thought that was a distributor marking, as the spelling was wrong- Ayres instead of Aires. Maybe it was period spelling? And why the Liege proof?

[micromontenegro]

Update: It miked at 19x63mm like grcsat said. Of course, nominal chamber diameter for 16 gauge is 16.2mm...

[grcsat]

I have absolutely no explination of the Liege proof mark. And what is odd is that there should be at least a couple more proof marks other than the liege. Starting to think maybe its not a liege mark.

However I did find a value in one of my "OLD" books. $4,000 US

Please remember that by seeng the pics. We are making an educated quess and I most certanly can be wrong.

[hrf]

I have absolutely no explination of the Liege proof mark. And what is odd is that there should be at least a couple more proof marks other than the liege. Starting to think maybe its not a liege mark.

The ELG Liege proofmark may be on underside of barrel at breech end. (Maybe can be read with a mirror?)

[Jim K]

If there was a market anywhere in the world for a gun, no matter how odd or unusual, the Belgian makers would try to fill it, so I would not rule out a Liege source, even if similar guns are known to have been made in Argentina.

The "perron" alone on the breech indicates final black powder proof; the oval ELG will normally appear on the barrel. The "star [letter]" is the initial of the inspector and can be any letter.

Jim

[micromontenegro]

The ELG Liege proofmark may be on underside of barrel at breech end. (Maybe can be read with a mirror?)

And you are right! After locating it with a mirror, I could even take pictures of it and another Perron:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/micromontenegro/TrabucoBelgian.jpg

[micromontenegro]

Beyond, there's "NL", and what might be the stylized EL provisional proof...

[grcsat]

Proof marks don't lie. Its Belgian . There must be an error in my books.
Sorry about that.

[micromontenegro]

Proof marks don't lie. Its Belgian . There must be an error in my books.
Sorry about that.

Au contraire, I thank you very much! This is still a mistery, and you've been very helpful.

[StoneChimney]

grcsat, the Buenos Ayres guns had Belgian proofmarks. But, they were marked 'Buenos Ayres' on the breech. Don't know that this one is. It is certainly a similar pattern and undoubtedly of similar purpose. Note what appears to be a hook on the left side for belt or saddle.

The Belgians during this time period (and others, even today) were more than willing to export stuff and made-in-Belgium guns crop up around the world.

A great piece.

[Jim K]

The hook is a belt hook. FWIW, they were used mainly on navy pistols. In the olden days, the cavalry commonly carried pistols in holsters on the saddle, not on the person. Sailors, having neither saddles nor horses, would be issued pistols only as needed, usually to repel boarders or be part of a boarding party themselves, so the hook kept the pistol in the belt or sash when not being used.

The flared muzzle, plus the belt hook, could indicate manufacture for naval use. Could "Buenos Aires" on a gun be the name of a ship instead of the city?

(Update: There was an ARA Buenos Aires, commissioned 1896, decommissioned 1932. That seems too late for that gun, but there may have been an earlier ship of that name. There was a later one, commissioned in 1938, but we can be reasonably certain the crew was not issued pinfires.)

Jim

[lefaucheux 54]

Nice pistol you've here
Your pinfire pistol has been build and improofed in Belgium in the city of Liège
ELG in a ovale is the mark proof of that city and was used till July 1893 , after dat date it has a crown above
The D with a star is a proofmark of the inspector and used from January 1877 till today , before 1877 the same lettre had a crown above
So your pistol has been made in the periode of Janaury 1877 and july 1893
The Perron is used on barrels of breechloading, tip-down arms
The EL is a provisional Liège barrel proofmark used from 1853 till today.
Many of these pistols were exported from Belgium to South America and in spécial to Argentina

LF

www.lefaucheux.net

[micromontenegro]

Thanks!

[mikemcsaudi]

LF,
Would you be able to look at my blunderbuss and provide any additional information as well?

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?p=794210&posted=1#post794210

My sincere thanks!

Mike