Indentification Flintlock (I think this model is rare)

[Tancred]

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9082/26879320976466881741455.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/26879320976466881741455.jpg/)

Hello, I can not identify what Flintlock? Can you help me

[Jim Hauff]

Tancred,
Welcome to the forum.
Looking at your picture - the "cock"/hammer doesn't look right! It doesn't seem to have provision for holding a flint?????
Can you take a close-up picture of just the hammer in a locked back position.
Are you sure this is not a "decorator" item?

[Hawg]

It looks like the top jaw is missing. I'm pretty sure I see the hole for the screw.

[rhmc24]

Pretty sure it is French. If you can post good pix close up of the lock, markings and the other side of where the lock is, I can probably ID it for you. I have some very good reference material on French military pistols.

[hrf]

Looks like the crown over V London view mark on the lock. Post your photo at http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forums/5/t/British-Military-Handguns.html and you will get some opinions.

[Hawg]

It looks like a French 1763 Libreville but with brass furniture instead of iron.

[Tancred]

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6897/sam0822g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/sam0822g.jpg/)
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5236/sam0823o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/sam0823o.jpg/)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2272/sam0824h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/sam0824h.jpg/)
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5725/sam0826h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/sam0826h.jpg/)
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5973/sam0827z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/sam0827z.jpg/)
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2097/sam0832c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/sam0832c.jpg/)

Thx for your help

[hrf]

Duh, and the closeup shows that what I thought was a London view mark is the tail of the frizzen spring...

It is similar to the French Libreville, but does not appear to have been marked.

A reproduction top jaw from Dixie Gun Works might be adaptable, and shouldn't hurt value given the already poor condition.

[Hawg]

Duh, and the closeup shows that what I thought was a London view mark is the tail of the frizzen spring...

Quite the imagination you have there hrf.:D

[hrf]

Quite the imagination you have there hrf.:D

I'm afraid it's an optical deficiency...

[Hawg]

1763 French Libreville.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/rebel727/1763%20libreville/1763.jpg

[Jim K]

Hi, folks,

The gun does resemble the Model 1763, comes from the same era and may be French, but it is quite different from the 1763. The muzzle cap is quite a bit shorter and is of brass, plus the lockplate has a shape I don't recall seeing before. There were some variations of the Mle. 1763, but I can't find any that look like that gun. I also would like to know if it has any markings that might help.

Jim

[Hawg]

All the furniture is iron on the 63 and the muzzle cap has a slant on the rear of the op's gun. The butt cap looks fairly close but the brass one is a little short on the front and has a lanyard loop. I think the overall shape of the lock plate is the same but the op's gun has a funny look at the tail and the inside mechanism is different. It's a pretty close match as far as overall looks go. My guess is it's French from around the same time period but as to what it is I have no idea.

[rhmc24]

Book by R.E. Brooker 'Armes de Poing Militaires Francaises' is the best source of info in print. (poing = fist). It has hundreds of pix of all French military pistols. I conclude this pistol is not a regulation military piece but French probably made aound 1800. During the French revolutionary period, early 1790s thru early 1800s the book shows many variations of similar pistols with some but not all its characteristics. Napoleonic period similar French pistols were being made in the conquered countries. The picture in the book that looks closest to me is that of French Cavalry model of AN IX (year 9) from the revolution which works out to be 1800. Almost the same pistol is shown with marks dating it to 1809 made in Brescia Italy, others different dates and places.

The book shows similar pistols made with and without belt hooks, both iron and brass furniture. Great detail is given on ID marks, detail measurements in barrel length and of lock plate.

All that said, I can make sense of the French text but someone with good knowledge French and hours to study the book might or not agree with me.

[hrf]

Here's a similar brass mounted "Libreville pattern" example with sketches of a couple more: http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/saint%20etienne/a%20a%20manuf%20nat%20gb.htm

[Jim K]

Similar, but not the same. The cock is different, the pan is different, the trigger guard is different and the lockplate is different. I don't think the OP's gun is military/police at all; I think it is a civilian gun made in the general military style, like many guns of that era, in both France and England. (Not odd at all; many of us own a Beretta commercial version of the M9.)

Perhaps we can get more info.

Jim

[rhmc24]

As Jim K says the hammer is different, also the shape of the lock plate. These are typical of the non-reg differences. France was the 800 pound gorilla in Europe for the period till the British took Napoleon down at Waterloo in 1815. French guns and near copies were the latest and greatest. No doubt it is ca. 1800 French military but not a pure French regulation pistol.

[Tancred]

Thx, what is its value?

[rhmc24]

In its condition of missing parts and major wood break $600-800. As a restorer I would expect to pay around $600 for what I see. In hand exam I might go a bit more.