how God feels about killing ?

[goofy]

I was talking to a friend about what God says about killing. We agreed that it is said you should not kill but what about war or if you kill someone breaking in to your house?I beleave that through Jesus God will forgive all sins does this include killing someone? and whare in the bible does it talk about this?

[ampaterry]

That translation of the commandment that simply states "Thou shalt not kill" is a bit briefer than it actually should be. Notice that the death penalty is prescribed for several offenses, which seems to show that the Bible contradicts itself - which it does not do.

In that commandment, the Hebrew word translated "kill" is רָצַח
which is pronounced "Ra-Tsach", and it is not simply kill as we usually use that word, but means to cause the death of someone who is undeserving of it. Most translations, even the New King James, use "murder" instead of kill. It forbids the taking of anothers life for personal gain, but does not prohibit capital punishment for a crime, nor lives taken in self defense or in defense of innocents.
It goes a bit beyond that, though - it also means that if through inaction you allow someone to die, you are guilty. If someone is starving and you have the means to give them food and prevent their death, yet fail to do so - you are guilty.

You absolutely have the right to defend with lethal force your life and the lives of others, both on a personal level and on a national level as in a war.
For my part, considering the usual result of a home invasion, if someone is kicking in my door I will assume they are goiing to kill me, and I will stop them with lethal force.

[jack404]

God also knows your heart , did you kill for profit , for power ? or self defence or fear for your family ? .. God will know , and if your like the rest of us, God will judge you on that .. its often not the what with God , but the why ...

[Alpo]

In the 1920s, "gay" meant "happy". Now it means "homosexual". Words change their meanings over time. In the time of King James, if you killed someone legally - in a duel, defending yourself or your family from thieves, during war - you SLEW them. The only time KILL was used was when you murdered someone.

As to how God feels about killing - he must like it. He did so much of it. Killed all the people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Killed all the people in Jericho. Killed all the first born males, including new-born babies, in Egypt. Killed 99.9999999999999% of the people on the Earth with a flood.

[ampaterry]

I don't think God LIKES killing as much as he simply does not view it with the absolute horror that we do.
We see death as the END of existence.
From God's perspective, death is merely a transition from one phase of our eternal existence into the next phase.

[goofy]

Should a person who has killed say in a war or home invason ask for forgiveness or should I say does he NEED to ask for forgiveness.This was part of the talk I had with my fellow Vet.He felt that he was going to go to hell for what he did and I said that if that was true then I to would be going to the same place but I believe that when I asked for forgiveness for what I did in Nam that God understood and through Jesus name I was forgiven.Do you think that I did not need to ask ( still do not feel right about what I did ) and God understands or do you feel there is a need to ask?

[45nut]

As to how God feels about killing - he must like it. He did so much of it.

Hold on there Baba-Louie!! :eek: :D I work a heck of a lot of my time and I don't like it one bit. I'd rather be independently wealthy with many bamboo fly rods and fully automatic weapons at my disposal, but I have to be content with 7 or 8 good bamboo rods and 1 great one and semi auto only. :mad: :D:D:D

And if you look closely at the killing ordered by God and done by God in the flood, none of it was done without looking for righteous people first. In the flood for instance, only Noah and his immediate family (out of how many millions of people??) were righteous and everyone else that rejected God's love got God's wrath. Seems fair to me. Noah told them if you don't repent you will die in a flood.

[H-D]

You need to search your heart , if you feel what you did was outside your duty or you killed when killing wasn't necessary you may need to pray for forgiveness, it never hurts to pray for any reason, pray for God to let you know if you've done wrong in his eyes and see if God lays a burden on your heart for what was done, if so then pray for forgiveness, but it's not for men to judge what was done

[herohog]

I understood it to be "Thou shall not MURDER" which is completely different but does match up with the rest of the bible where killing is OK in certain instances.

[ampaterry]

Goofy, I believe there are two reasons to ask for forgiveness: Subjective and Objective.

In the case of objective need, you have flat out sinned, no doubt about it, and you need to ask forgiveness for that in order to have your sins removed.

In the case of subjective need, you THINK that you MIGHT have sinned, and you should ask for forgiveness for any sins you MIGHT have committed. If you did something that was a sin, it will be forgiven and removed. If no real sin was committed, - well, no harm, no foul.

It does have to be genuine, though - you must be repentant in your heart over anything you MIGHT have done.

I have asked for God to forgive any wrong intent I MIGHT have had on many occasions.
I think about the young man that I had a 12 gauge centered on his belly and was squeezing the trigger. He turned away and I did NOT kill him, but I had already made the decision to blow him away, and I was squeezing the trigger, so the INTENT was there. I certainly regret that incident, and have asked God to forgive any wrong I did by making that decision, even though if the circumstances were exactly repeated I would make the identical decision again.
I was GOING to kill him.
I did not WANT to kill him, and as I squeezed the trigger I was praying for God to intervene - which He did.

Whether or not there is a NEED for such asking for forgiveness is based solely on what is in your heart at the time, just as Jack said above.

[carver]

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

[ampaterry]

I understood it to be "Thou shall not MURDER" which is completely different but does match up with the rest of the bible where killing is OK in certain instances.

Indeed -
Almost all modern translations use "murder" instead.

[hunter29180]

Killed all the first born males, including new-born babies, in Egypt.

now wait a min...I am not convienced God did this one..while God has in fact killed a fair portion of people..it seems to me he did try to offer them all a diffrent path than the one they were on! and still does today!

those people really killed themselves..after all the CREATOR reserves the right to destroy his (or HER) creation..right? seems the human race reserves that right all the time. and we dont even offer a diffrent path before destroying them. Seems we still have a bit to learn!!

[Juker]

From Ecclesiastes 3 (KJV):

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

[ampaterry]

I received an e-mail from a member regarding this thread, but they have their e-mail blocked so I cannot respond in kind. I will therefore put my response here in this forum.

The gist of their e-mail was that the translation "murder" in this commandment instead of "kill" was incorrect.
I certainly admit that, although I have studied it, I am NOT a Hebrew expert. I therefore defer to references on the topic. From the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, there is this passage regarding that exact word.
I have emphasized in bold the part dealing with which is the better translation of the Hebrew term.

Derivative
2208a ‏רֶצַח‎ (reṣaḥ) <H7524> shattering (Psalm 42:11; Ezekiel 21:27).
rāṣaḥ is a purely Hebrew term. It has no clear cognate in any of the contemporary tongues. The root occurs thirty-eight times in the OT, with fourteen occurrences in Numbers 35. The initial use of the root appears in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13). In that important text it appears in the simple Qal stem with the negative adverb, "You shall not murder," being a more precise reading than the too-general KJV "thou shalt not kill." Much has been made of the fact that the root rāṣaḥ appears in the Mosaic legislation, as though this term bore a special connotation of premeditation, as though the Decalogue only proscribed premeditated crime. This is not the case. The many occurrences in Numbers 35 deal with the organization of the six cities of refuge to which manslayers who killed a person accidentally could flee. Numbers 35:11 makes completely clear that the refuge was for those guilty of unpremeditated, accidental killings. This makes clear that rāṣaḥ applies equally to both cases of premeditated murder and killings as a result of any other circumstances, what English Common Law has called, "man slaughter." The root also describes killing for revenge (Numbers 35:27, 30) and assassination (2 Kings 6:32). It appears in a few poetic contexts, as an "A" word in a peculiar parallel construction (Job 24:14); as an "A" word parallel to a general term for immorality, zimmâ (Hosea 6:9); as a "B" word parallel to another synonym "to kill," "to slay" (Psalm 94:6). In only one case in the whole OT is the root used of the killing of man by an animal (Proverbs 22:13). But even in that context it is the enormity and horror of the deed which is primary. In all other cases of the use of rāṣaḥ, it is man's crime against man and God's censure of it which is uppermost.

[Juker]

Amen, Terry.

The Word of God never contradicts itself.

In Genesis 9:6 we are told: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man."

In Ecclesiastes 3 we are told: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: ... a time to kill..."

Thus it does not follow that in Exodus, we are told not to kill. If this commandment was all-inclusive, it would directly contradict the many instances in the Word when we are clearly told that killing is justifiable in many instances.

[45nut]

As when God commanded Saul to kill every living thing of the Conflagdomites (?) and when Samuel the prophet came into camp asked Saul, "Is that the bleating of sheep I hear?"

So if God did indeed command us not to kill, then He violated his command by telling Saul to kill everyone, women & kids.... oh the .......horror.

Sometimes killing is to purge evil from a place or people. Like when the Israelites entered the Promised Land of Canaan, they were supposed to kill all the canaanites. They didn't and intermarried and began to worship the canaanites idols instead of / along with God.

Sin in the camp..... time to be taken captive again so we can purge the evil from ourselves.

[45Auto]

It goes a bit beyond that, though - it also means that if through inaction you allow someone to die, you are guilty. If someone is starving and you have the means to give them food and prevent their death, yet fail to do so - you are guilty.

The Bible says many such things which are denegrated as "liberal" ideas in some circles.

[Teejay9]

The commandment refers to murder. You take someone's life. Killing, as in war, seems to be justified, as Alpo points out. For those who read or know the Bible, have you ever noticed the shift in God's chacteristics from the Old and New testements? In the OT, He seems pretty angry a lot of the time, while in the NT, He's much more pacified and loving. Just my thoughts, which change often. TJ

[ampaterry]

The Bible says many such things which are denegrated as "liberal" ideas in some circles.

You sure are right.

Some folks have a hard time differentiating between feeding the NEEDY and facilitating the LAZY.

The Bible is quite clear on the difference:

2 Thessalonians 3:10 (KJV)
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[jwrauch]

You sure are right.

Some folks have a hard time differentiating between feeding the NEEDY and facilitating the LAZY.

The Bible is quite clear on the difference:

2 Thessalonians 3:10 (KJV)
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Amen ! JR

[Model195Fan]

I received an e-mail from a member regarding this thread, but they have their e-mail blocked so I cannot respond in kind. I will therefore put my response here in this forum.I think that you are referring to my e-mail yesterday. I don't know why mine is blocked, but I will check into it.

Your response probably covers the subject, but just to clarify, if necessary, this was my original e-mail. It is actually a "canned response" that I have saved because of the frequency of running into this subject.

"Some folks think that the Biblical command says, "Thou shalt not murder."

This is false, and its falsehood can be proved from the Bible itself. Exodus 20:13 says, "Lo tirtzach." Don't kill. The word "kill" (or, some contend, "murder") is spelled Resh Tsadhe Ches. Can we find this word elsewhere in the Bible where it will be perfectly clear whether it means "kill" or "murder?" In this particular case, yes! In Numbers 35:26-8, after extensive discussion of intentional vs. accidental killing and its relation to the cities of refuge, the Bible uses the word "rotzeach" (killer), spelled with the same root letters, to refer to an INNOCENT killer while describing the rules applying to him and those who would avenge his accidental victim's death. It also uses the same word, "ratzach," to describe the PERMISSIBLE killing of the accidental killer if the avenger of the blood finds him outside the city of refuge.

Without any doubt whatsoever, the proper translation of "Lo tirtzach" is "Don't kill." There are certainly exceptions to this commandment, as listed in the Bible itself, but that is what the words mean.

If you wish to study this further and do not read Hebrew, you should consult an orthodox rabbi with the references, or perhaps take a look at an interlinear translation [Zondervan?] of the Bible in a Christian bookstore. Obviously, if you read Hebrew, you need only look at those verses in any Chumash."

I don't doubt the usefulness of your looking into other occurrences of this word, and you have shown me that it is time for me to break out my concordance. Thanks!

[jack404]

See i see this and wonder why i did not study this more , thanks for the input folks i learned a lot ..

i'll raise this as a personal view only

we have a new testament, its written on the tablet of our hearts..

to me this means the following ..

i dont like being stolen from , so i dont steal ,

i dont want to be killed for no reason , so i wont kill for no reason

i dont like being lied to , so i dont lie ..

i dont wish to be a victim either so i wont be one , even if i have to kill someone to do so ..

we know whats wrongful even if we try to justify it somehow

, the bible is a mix of different peoples views of God , as with any such creation the more that contribute multiplies the chances of conflict, , but with any mass influenced derived result the "whole" of the result is most accurate

its like range finding by multiple configurations

take a squad of troops , get them each to work out the range to somewhere ( distance )

average the result and you'll have a pretty accurate result ..

the bible is similar

its many people ( flawed as we are) own view of the history and actions of our Creator as best they could describe in the language of the day it was written

but as a whole it shows , killing should be avoided when possible and right to do so , but when needed should be done as quickly and with all your might , as possible ..

treat the Book as Whole , not just as points to be argued .. it shows a lot that way eh ..

[cycloneman]

When I was 9 I got my first bb gun. I became very good with it too. One day a sparrow flew into a branch of an oak tree next door to us. I couldn't see the bird but I heard him and knew right where to aim. So I shot it. Down it fell. I was kicked in the gut. I cried, and felt terrible.

But I was comforted. God spoke to me and told me that I must master the art of hunting and killing to feed myself. Not that I had to do it to eat, but I had to learn to do it to survive.

So for a while i went on a killing spree. Killing lots of birds and small game. Then one day God had another little talk with me. He told me it was wrong to kill all those animals if I wasnt going to eat them. So I stopped killing them for no reason. Now I hunt and kill an awful lot of animals now but it goes in the freezer.

OK. So this is kinda thread drift but I do believe you can sin aganist an animal too.

As far as having to kill a human I look at it like this. Regardless of what any book or what any one says I have absolutly no problems with causing death to another if it is justified to me. Now I am not saying justified like in Physo.

Doesn't matter if I got dropped out of a helo on a hot LZ or if i am held at gunpoint. Once my life is in danger death will come to someone swift and unknowing. No matter who says what. That is something my heart is comfortable with, and i will not loose any sleep over it.

That is what i have come to terms in my mind. I guess thats a little talk with the father too. If i felt it was wrong I would have a different outlook.


And no i would not need to ask for forgivness.

Now Stallin, Moa, Hitler, it would be wise if they had asked for forgivness. Just saying

[langenc]

Weather MURDER or just KILLING, I know he dont like the 50 MILLION UNborn killed in the last 30+ years in the US.

Someone (many) wiill pay for this transgression.

[ampaterry]

model195fan, it was indeed your e-mail I was speaking of, and I thank you for repeating it here. I never publish anyones e-mail without their permission, and the thoughts are greatly clarified by your posting it.

This discussion has driven MANY into word studies and scripture, and that is GREAT!!

It caused me to do a bit of a survey of my literature too:
Besides the Theological Wordbook quoted above;
My interlinear Bible, printed by Baker Book House, uses the word murder.
The Brown-Driver-Briggs-Genesius Hebrew-English Lexicon lists this word as:
"Murder, Slay, With premeditation"
KJV uses kill (1611)
Darby's translation uses kill
American Standard Version uses kill
NKJV uses Murder
KJII uses Murder
English standard Version uses murder
Gods Word translation uses murder
New American Standard Bible (1977) uses murder
New Century Version uses murder
New Internatinal version uses murder
New Living Translation uses murder
New Revised Standard Version uses murder
The Living Bible uses murder
The Message uses murder
Youngs Literal Translation uses murder
The Holy Bible, Revised Version uses murder
The Bible in Basic English uses "do not put anyone to death without cause"

Of my 20 references surveyed, I count only 3 for the general "kill" and 17 for murder, premeditation, or 'put to death without cause'.

If there is a specific commentary that uses 'kill', I probably have that also, but I need to know which one because I have a TON of paper commentaries; too many to look through them all.

Thank you, guys for all the input on this!