Something bothering me

[RunningOnMT]

I've been troubled lately by several sermons I listened to regarding obedience to authority. These sermons were given by someone for whom I have always had a great deal of respect. I have never found anything this pastor teaches to be in conflict with scripture.

Basically he says that all authority on earth, be it good or evil, is ordained by God. That as Christians we are to render strict obedience except where obedience would require you to violate the law of God. He uses a number of examples from both the old and new testement, of how God's people always obeyed even evil and unjust rulers, except when they were commanded to violate God's law, say for example by bowing down and worshipping idols.

This is a problem for me as I've always been a bit of a rebel against authority I've thought was wrong; not just in a Biblical sense, but as a matter of civil justice. In these times, considering those presently in power, the need to participate in some form of civil disobedience at some point seems quite possible.

Secondly, if obedience to God means obedience to civil authority, where would we be today had the founders followed this precept? We never would have had an American revolution. Therefore two things must be true; the American revolution was wrong and disobedient to God but yet was ordained by Him. If this is true would not a second revolution also be ordained by God? As another example; if I understand this correctly, it would have been wrong for German citizens to try to kill Hitler. That is hard for me to swallow.

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?

I can post links to a few of these sermons if anyone would careto hear them but for now I just want to see how you all feel about this.

[lawdawg]

Romans 13 (NIV)

Submission to Governing Authorities

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


I have always understood that we are supposed to live in the world as pilgrims passing through a strange land; we adhere to its laws and authority, and try to make it a better place while here, but realize it is not our actual Home and our stay is only temporary. I think we all are guilty sometimes of getting too caught up in politics and forgetting that we are citizens of another Kingdom, one "not of this world". I believe it is OK to try and make ourselves a little more comfortable while here, but not so comfortable that we start to think we belong here. In the meantime, God is still on the Throne and everything, even world government, is subject to Him.

[American Leader]

Very interesting and somewhat deep if you give it thought. Thanks guys!

[Bobitis]

This is gonna be interesting. Very good question my friend.

The Bible says 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars'.

How is that defined and by whom? What are the rules? When is it our duty to ignore them?

In my mind, the defining arguement is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Does that imply that I should be a slave to the government? I should give so that I can get it back? Makes no sense.

I donate when and where I can (and choose). I'm all for helping those that are truly in need. It's not the governments role to tell me who is worthy.

Give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and feed him for a lifetime.

Too many societies today keep tossing the man a fish every day. It doesn't work.
Our obligation is to help the man become self sufficient. Help him to teach others how to fish. How to Contribute.

I'd be interested in the links.

Givernment (sp) should be strictly limited in its powers. When they are usurped, it's the peoples right to protest.

Jesus died on the cross that man would have the right to choose. I for one don't believe that act was limited to going to heaven or hell. It has far reaching consequences other than that.

That's it for now. Carry on.

[Double D]

This is my stumbling block. I find it almost impossible to believe god had anyting to do with the current clownship and I guess I will have to sort it out with him later. I have hit a wall. I cannot and will not ever be subject to this guys so called leadership. Not now, not ever. I guess I am outright going against what is written. Call it what you may. I am out of step and cant see it any other way.

[CampingJosh]

The Bible says 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars'.

This quote from Jesus comes immediately after asking whose image is on the Roman coin. Caesar's image is on the coin, so we render that under his control.

Where is God's image? We're told in Genesis 1.27 that we--man and woman--were created in God's image. It's on us, not the coins. We are to render ourselves to God's control.


The only way I can answer a Christian's internal struggle in this area--and I think that every thinking Christian has this struggle at least occasionally--is by questioning our focus. Throughout the New Testament, we don't see any of Jesus followers attempting to change earthly government. Even when the governments violently persecuted and executed these people, the focus of the biblical Christians was never on this world.
When Peter and John were unjustly locked in prison, the believers weren't planning a jail break. They were praying. When Paul was arrested and transported to Rome, he didn't attempt to escape; he instead preached the Word wherever the soldiers took him.

Personally, I am very dissatisfied with our government. I'm basically a libertarian. But every time I start to get focused on making changes to the way this life operates, I find that I'm losing focus on leading others into the next, far more important life.

[cycloneman]

The fact that your thinking about it tells me your trying to do the right thing.

I dont care what anybody says or what someones interpretation of scripture is. It is my interpretation that is important and what I will be judged on.

1. Is it right for the govt to confiscate your money and redistribute it to others? You have to answer this for yourself.

2. Do you think it's right for govt to send you to war to fight a cause you dont believe in?

3. Do you think it's right for the govt to kill certain people?

Personally i dont believe there is a govt that is right and just anymore.

Look around.

Ok when Jesus asked if anyone is free of sin cast the first stone. This was ment to make you think instead of following the norm.

Ask God what he wants you to do, listen to him when he speakes to you.
Listen to man and you will certainly screw up. I am not telling you who is right. It is up to you and God.

Would I have taken out hilter? Dam straight, would not loose any sleep over it.

Good question and many will have to search their souls in the future I fear. It is better to have these questions resolved before God presses the reset button.

You know what is right and wrong. GOd made you that way. Your choice. I think things are gona get tuff for some people, real tuff.

Our founding fathers gave us freedom. Freedom is required for salvation. What Jesus did on that day was his free will. He walked up to Calvery and freely choose to let his supernatural power go. He could have stopped what was to happen but if he did then people would have followed him out of fear. God doesn't want stupid people. He wants your heart and soul from your free will. He endoured whipping, a crown of thorns, carried that heavy cross up the mountain, got nailed to it and suffered a stabb in the side and died a horrable death in the sun. He could have stopped it but he didn't. For one brief moment he cried out to God "why have you forsaken me". At that moment God had to turn his back on Jesus and let him go. Can you imagine the hurt God must have felt? Jesus said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. None of this could happen without free will.

That is why it is so important that we fight for freedom. Freedom is the foundation by which God will build his kingdom. Those people in the middle east dont have this. Many people in the world dont have this.

I want to take this time to thank you God for your grace. In return I will uphold God's will, whatever is required.

Peace to all.

[JohnHenry]

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .

[cycloneman]

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .


Not picking on you JH. You bring up good points.

Faith is something you have or you dont. You must have the option to freely choose it.

Do you believe Jesus rose Lazarist from the dead?

Do you believe Jesus healed the sick, healed the lepper?

Do you belive he rose from the dead?

Do you believe the apostiles?

Do you believe in every day miricles? Read the thread 254 in this forum. They happen every day.

Man can certainly muff things up when it comes to religion. But dont let that deny your faith or salvation.

[cycloneman]

WHAT PILOTS SEE
WHEN LANDING AT OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE.

A farmer does this with his tractor. He uses GPS to get the letters readable.
He has done this every fall for several years now.

Here's the view from the flight pattern into OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE
Bellevue , NE., just south of Omaha .
This is what our servicemen see when landing at Offutt AFB.
Hat tip to the Bellevue farmer who made it happen!

[JohnHenry]

You answered your own question .... "Do I believe that Jesus did various things ?"
I believe in God, the Creator .... I have no thoughts on Jesus, one way or another. So, it follows that I do not react to the dictates of ANY organized religion. I'm not just referring to various Christian versions of religion .... I mean all organized religions .

[ampaterry]

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

[ampaterry]

John, if your belief in God is absolute, you are NOT an agnostic.

In fact, if you simply do not KNOW if God exists or not, you are STILL not an agnostic.

An agnostic has a very specific belief:
God is beyond knowing. I don't know if He exists, YOU don't know if He exists, and no one knows if He exists; such positive knowledge is impossible.

I know many people that simply don't know if God exists; they are merely undecided, not agnostic.

From your statements, you are a Deist.

I would pose this question to you, though.

IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?

I was EXACTLY where you are, and through study and investigation I came to the conclusion that He DID tell us, in the collected books in the Bible.

[JohnHenry]

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

[cycloneman]

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

Good question.

I believe he expects a kingdom where satan types are not around.

You see if he comes out of the sky and preforms supernatural things you would follow him out of fear. Then someday a smart butt like satan will challange him. Which is what is happening. So he has to give you the free will to choose right from wrong. He can not interfear in your choice. You must come to him free of fear.

What could he expect from us? Companionship, a kingdom, beyond that the sky is the limit. Who know what we are ment to do in the future.


Parasitic life form? Come on. He gave us the breath of life.

Ok. Everything around you is dirt. YOu car, your computer, your kitchen table and so on. Next time you sit in your car remember its dirt. Everthing that made that car came from under your feet. Man can make these things but only God can breath life into a creation like our bodies.

The fact that we are given free will to choose means we are not insignificant, he has alot to loose and he will loose many of us. Those that follow him are really gona make his day.

[hunter29180]

I've been troubled lately by several sermons I listened to regarding obedience to authority. Basically he says that all authority on earth, be it good or evil, is ordained by God. That as Christians we are to render strict obedience except where obedience would require you to violate the law of God.

My understanding is that God vested unto (us) man the authority to govern ourselves..as such if that authority is or becomes evil it was our (mans) own choice that allowed this to happen. BUT the original authority did in fact come from GOD. It was our free choice, coupled with the authorty to govern ourselves that caused this!

Secondly, if obedience to God means obedience to civil authority, where would we be today had the founders followed this precept? We never would have had an American revolution. Therefore two things must be true; the American revolution was wrong and disobedient to God but yet was ordained by Him. If this is true would not a second revolution also be ordained by God? As another example; if I understand this correctly, it would have been wrong for German citizens to try to kill Hitler. That is hard for me to swallow.

only GOD can answer those questions. for me I believe the American revolution was our choice. (be it good or evil) IT was our (MANS) choice. as for Hitler?? well he committed crimes that clearly placed him in contest to GODS will and rule.

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?

In this all I can answer is "PRAYER" and intense listening to GOD.


This is my stumbling block. I find it almost impossible to believe god had anyting to do with the current clownship and I guess I will have to sort it out with him later. I have hit a wall. I cannot and will not ever be subject to this guys so called leadership. Not now, not ever. I guess I am outright going against what is written. Call it what you may. I am out of step and cant see it any other way.

Actuall the only thing GOD had to do with this, is ALLOWING us FREE CHOICE...we allowed this choice not GOD. as to the rest..as long as he issues lawful orders I have to obey. I took a Oath to that. Even if I disagree with him and his choices. The Key is "LAWFUL" other than that I agree with you.


The fact that your thinking about it tells me your trying to do the right thing.

I dont care what anybody says or what someones interpretation of scripture is. It is my interpretation that is important and what I will be judged on.

Agreeded! each of us will have to excercise our "Free Choice" and be "judged" by God for it.

1. Is it right for the govt to confiscate your money and redistribute it to others? You have to answer this for yourself.

For ME, no its not

2. Do you think it's right for govt to send you to war to fight a cause you dont believe in?

What war? so far while I believe the ones we have fought and are currently in are Mishandled. I would rather Us fight over there than here on our own ground. and if I am against the cause so much I can serve in a support role for those on the front line. I can cook or dig latines for them.


3. Do you think it's right for the govt to kill certain people?

in certian circumstances..yes. again choice.

Personally i dont believe there is a govt that is right and just anymore.

I feel ours is as close as us poor misguided humans have come!


Ask God what he wants you to do, listen to him when he speakes to you.
Listen to man and you will certainly screw up. I am not telling you who is right. It is up to you and God.
God doesn't want stupid people. He wants your heart and soul from your free will. He endoured whipping, a crown of thorns, carried that heavy cross up the mountain, got nailed to it and suffered a stabb in the side and died a horrable death in the sun. He could have stopped it but he didn't. For one brief moment he cried out to God "why have you forsaken me". At that moment God had to turn his back on Jesus and let him go. Can you imagine the hurt God must have felt? Jesus said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. None of this could happen without free will.

That is why it is so important that we fight for freedom. Freedom is the foundation by which God will build his kingdom. Those people in the middle east dont have this. Many people in the world dont have this.

I want to take this time to thank you God for your grace. In return I will uphold God's will, whatever is required.

Peace to all.

AMEN!

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

100% agreement here!!

[RunningOnMT]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not parish, but have everlasting life."

The truth is available to whoever will seek it. Our heavenly Father has done his part and revealed the truth through His Son and His gospel. When you want to know the truth JohnHenry, you know where to find it.

I will pray that you will sense the call of the Holy Spirit drawing you to Him and His Word.

[hunter29180]

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .

I would never try to "classify you JohnHenry. you Believe in GOD, not sure about JESUS and question Acts of Faith. thats actuall a pretty good starting point! I too have "Problems" with "ORGANISED" reglions. and like you find most Preachers either too self centered or so hard line they have lost focus on what Gods words are.

in Jesus if you believe in the New Testament then you believe in Jesus, if not them you only adhere to the old testement. Faith and acts of Faith? you show Faith in your belief of GOD, in that statement you also believe in acts of Faith, God tells you they exist and has told you of several. the question would be, have you witnessed any..only you can answer that one.

You answered your own question .... "Do I believe that Jesus did various things ?"
I believe in God, the Creator .... I have no thoughts on Jesus, one way or another. So, it follows that I do not react to the dictates of ANY organized religion. I'm not just referring to various Christian versions of religion .... I mean all organized religions .

question here..When God states.."I have sent MY ONLY BEGOTTON SON"...who do you think he was referring to?

as to the rest of your statement. I support your choice.

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

I and MANY other believe he has. again with the free choice granted to us by GOD. you may choose to believe he has not. and again i will choose to support you.

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

The answer to your question is within your own mindset. What would you EXPECT from your children? We are all GODS children!
Please remember GOD CHOSE to create us..he also decided in his all encompassing LOVE decided to allow us to make our mistakes, so we could learn from them. much as we as parents allow our children to make many of their own mistakes...so they can learn from them.....sounds to me like GOD has a handle on the parenting thing.......

and as far as Parasitic lifeforms...well maybe..but only because we have chose to be so..I find it hard to believe GOD had that in mind when he CHOSE to create us!

[RunningOnMT]

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

Forgive me Terry but you have oversimplified my question. I was speaking of more than taxation and rendering unto Caesar etc.

Let me put it this way. We have a constitution that contains certain principles. Among these are what the founders felt were God given rights. Now what if those in power are usurping those rights. Yes we work within the system, but as Christians are we required to accept these abuses if we can not rectify them politically?

As this is a firearms forum, let's use an example that's near and dear to us all; the second amendment. Now suppose Obama and the many assorted liberals and socialists in the congress were able to pass a law declaring that the second amendment refers to the militia which is now the national guard (many gun grabbers use that argument), and therefore orders the confiscation of all privately owned firearms. Let's also suppose that the supreme court upholds that law by a narrow margin. Would we as Christians be obliged to obey that law and turn over our guns?

Of course that is an extreme example not likely to happen in the near future, but we are headed in that direction, and I see the distinct possibility of something like this in the future. Look only to Australia and the UK.

There are other abuses taking place, and we all want to see Obama out of office but there is no guarantee we can vote him out. So if we are in fact unable to, are we then required to accept his abuses and usurpations? If so that makes the constitution unenforceable since it was the founders position that the government answers to the people, and the people have the right to demand, by force of arms if necessary, that the constitution be adhered to. But if we are to obey government authority how is that possible?

See my dilemma?

[rosierita]

i would like to hear the sermons, if you don't mind posting them.

i believe that if you are seeking God first, He's going to guide you & your every decision, moment by moment.

there is a lot about government that i do not like & will not support, but i haven't broken any laws... like abortion... i am absolutely against murdering innocent people & there are none more innocent than a defenseless baby... yet, the government supports it & pays for murder of innocents through abortion.

i guess, if we're changing 1 life at a time, like josh suggested, that's the truest form of change i can think of. we're so busy thinking about the BIG picture & wringing our hands about how to change it, when we could effectively be changing it 1 life at a time by caring more about the individuals in our every day path.

God brings people to us, so that they can be ministered to & how many of us even realize that or even notice?

[rosierita]

Forgive me Terry but you have oversimplified my question. I was speaking of more than taxation and rendering unto Caesar etc.

Let me put it this way. We have a constitution that contains certain principles. Among these are what the founders felt were God given rights. Now what if those in power are usurping those rights. Yes we work within the system, but as Christians are we required to accept these abuses if we can not rectify them politically?

As this is a firearms forum, let's use an example that's near and dear to us all; the second amendment. Now suppose Obama and the many assorted liberals and socialists in the congress were able to pass a law declaring that the second amendment refers to the militia which is now the national guard (many gun grabbers use that argument), and therefore orders the confiscation of all privately owned firearms. Let's also suppose that the supreme court upholds that law by a narrow margin. Would we as Christians be obliged to obey that law and turn over our guns?

Of course that is an extreme example not likely to happen in the near future, but we are headed in that direction, and I see the distinct possibility of something like this in the future. Look only to Australia and the UK.

There are other abuses taking place, and we all want to see Obama out of office but there is no guarantee we can vote him out. So if we are in fact unable to, are we then required to accept his abuses and usurpations? If so that makes the constitution unenforceable since it was the founders position that the government answers to the people, and the people have the right to demand, by force of arms if necessary, that the constitution be adhered to. But if we are to obey government authority how is that possible?

See my dilemma?
i understand what you are saying... but...

Philippians 4:5-7

New International Version (NIV)

5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

at the moment you are worried about a "what if". we absolutely should be actively trying to preserve what the founders intended, i'm not saying sit by & allow our country to be destroyed. it is up to each of us to make wise choices, good choices, Godly choices.

i don't think its wrong to plan ahead, but don't linger in the future. it causes anxiety & stress. pray about it, trust God for it, but remain in the present so that your present tasks can be accomplished. i do not believe that God wants you so worried about the future that you ignore the present.

today, right now, God has plans & tasks for you to do. if you're so focused on the "what ifs" will you be fully effective today?

today God is going to give you opportunities & that is going to affect the future. do keep the future in mind, but work towards that TODAY. don't let today escape you. be effective TODAY.

[RunningOnMT]

Thoughtful Biblical answer Rosierita and I am working toward that approach, but it's hard at times. I lose my focus and forget to let God control things.

But in that one example I gave, would you turn in your guns if authorities demanded it? That would be excruciatingly painful for me, but if I was convinced that was God's will, I would do it.

[RunningOnMT]

Here you go.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/60-24/Submission-to-Civil-Authority-Part-1

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/60-25

[Double D]

ROMT, my answer is NO. I would rebel. I would not lay down my guns and submit. As I said before, I have a very hard time believing god had anything to do with obama being elected. Maybe someone can jog my memory back in the old testement when the people insisted on a king and god had other plans but they insisted and he let them have their way and it turned out to be a disaster. I wont submit to this guy ever. Not ever.

[ampaterry]

ROMT, I believe your example is absolutely the perfect one, because Christ was very clear in telling us that it is more important to be armed than to be clothed. If such a law were passed, I would not submit to it.
Does that mean I would shoot the deputy that comes to my door to pick them up?
No, I would not. He is probably as opposed to such a stupid law as I am, and simply does not know how to get around it and still support his family.
I would use subterfuge, hide them, whatever necessary. I would even turn in one or two old worn out pieces just to take the heat off of me. I have heard it proposed that everyone should hang on to a few old junker guns just for that specific purpose.

[rosierita]

ROMT, my answer is NO. I would rebel. I would not lay down my guns and submit. As I said before, I have a very hard time believing god had anything to do with obama being elected. Maybe someone can jog my memory back in the old testement when the people insisted on a king and god had other plans but they insisted and he let them have their way and it turned out to be a disaster. I wont submit to this guy ever. Not ever.

not everything we do is in God's will for us. not everything that is done to us is God's will for us either. do any of us really think that the state this nation is God's doing? a lot of what our country stands for at this moment, is contrary to God's Word & God cannot & will not lie, He will not go against Himself. we have turned our backs on God.

BUT, we have hope in Christ, our situation is NOT hopeless, how can it be w/ such a loving & merciful God? i absolutely do believe that we can turn things around, but that is our choice. we've dug ourselves quite a hole! but, we can get out of it one step at a time, by changing 1 heart at a time. how many people cross our paths every day? you may not think there are many, but if you combine "real life" w/ the internet, you never really know how big your impact can be...

if you were told to replicate a masterpiece, it may appear to be overwhelming, scary & impossible, but if you look at the individual paint strokes it take to make a masterpiece, it looks do-able. that's a shift of perspective...

ROMT ~ at this very moment, i absolutely can say that i would never turn my guns over. i am working on submitting myself to God as well. it is tough!

but, having said that, i have surprised myself a number of times... i am a MOMMA BEAR, extremely protective about what & who i love & there have been a number of times where i have "turned the other cheek" in the past few yrs that i swore i'd NEVER do in a "what if" scenerio.

the way i try to look at it is, that so far God has kept me from having to make that decision & i am grateful to Him for it.

[rosierita]

Thoughtful Biblical answer Rosierita and I am working toward that approach, but it's hard at times. I lose my focus and forget to let God control things.

But in that one example I gave, would you turn in your guns if authorities demanded it? That would be excruciatingly painful for me, but if I was convinced that was God's will, I would do it.
i wanted to address the focus thing...

i have a very hard time focusing as well.

we know our enemy, we just don't always recognize his tactics. we are in a war. we can only fight it 1 battle at a time. sometimes we don't recognize the battle either.

satan has 2 objectives, 1 is to keep you from knowing Christ. if he loses that, his next objective is to keep you from being an effective witness.

he has endless ideas on how to trip you up & ruin your effectiveness for God. it can be something big or something small.

BUT we have 2 extremely effective weapons, God's Word & prayer. there is NOTHING impossible w/ God. trust Him to guide you & to guard you. ask Him for discernment & wisdom in all things.

trust His Holy Spirit as a witness to you.

satan is very deceptive & he will try to mimic God to throw you off course, but trust the Holy Spirit as that witness. He will point out the counterfeits.

[hunter29180]

I do not believe that a country wide mandate to turn in our weapons is a LAWFULL order and I would resist in whatever way would not cause my family harm. course if I'm dead then i will not know. As far as the policeman just doing his job? no policeman I know would consiter that a lawful order, and if they did attempt to enforce it beyond what I am willing to give up....well lets just say we will no longer know each other.....it would be KNEW not know.

[JohnHenry]

Judging by the responses I haven't made myself clear.
My thinking on organized religion is to view the variations ( I'm speaking of Christians, at the moment ) and recall that the "Word of God" should not lend its self to any divisions as it would have had one origin. The variations of the versions of the Bible and the teachings of the different sects are pretty obvious to anyone that reads them .... and if I add in the basis of the other religions the entire idea of "religion" becomes ridiculous .

The writings of the "Illuminati" or the words of Nostradamus are as valid as any of the multiple versions of the Bible.

[hunter29180]

Judging by the responses I haven't made myself clear.
My thinking on organized religion is to view the variations ( I'm speaking of Christians, at the moment ) and recall that the "Word of God" should not lend its self to any divisions as it would have had one origin. The variations of the versions of the Bible and the teachings of the different sects are pretty obvious to anyone that reads them .... and if I add in the basis of the other religions the entire idea of "religion" becomes ridiculous .

The writings of the "Illuminati" or the words of Nostradamus are as valid as any of the multiple versions of the Bible.

I Personally think you have hit the nail on the head as far as the Word of GOD! really dont think its GODS fault though as MAN has created all these diffrent "VERSIONS"!

I could not have even come close to stating this in the way you did!

[ampaterry]

JohnHenry, I know many people who have tried to make major issues out of the different translations or versions of the Bible.

But the fact remains that ALL translations, ALL versions, preserve the main Christian doctrines. The actual differences are often taken as the basis for minor doctrinal differences, but these are NOT salvation issues.

Believe and be sprinkled.
Believe and be dunked.
Believe and do works.
Believe and give alms.
Believe and pay tithe.
Believe and witness.
Believe and handle snakes.

The central issue in ALL of these is - BELIEVE.
How or if you tithe, witness, get wet or have close encounters of a slithery kind are NOT salvation issues, regardless of the claims made by various denominations.
John 3:16 explains it all, and is essentually unchanged in any version.

We must be careful to separate the things a Christian should try to do to be a GOOD Christian from the things a Christian MUST do to be a Christian at all.

[Double D]

I agree pastor. There is absolutely nothing man can do to save himself. No religion, no rituals, no water, no good works, no following anyone else. No, it is by faith we are saved, thru grace and not by works lest any man should boast. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but thru me. Man made religion has created rituals and ways that have nothing to do with salvation. But, man should not allow those things to stand in his way of his salvation. If you are searching for the perfect church, you shall never find it, for once YOU enter in, it is no longer perfect.

[ampaterry]

I agree pastor. There is absolutely nothing man can do to save himself. No religion, no rituals, no water, no good works, no following anyone else. No, it is by faith we are saved, thru grace and not by works lest any man should boast. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but thru me. Man made religion has created rituals and ways that have nothing to do with salvation. But, man should not allow those things to stand in his way of his salvation. If you are searching for the perfect church, you shall never find it, for once YOU enter in, it is no longer perfect.

Truth!!

[JohnHenry]

'terry ........ "The central issue in ALL of these is - BELIEVE."

Believe in what/whom ? Belief in God is not a question ( in my mind ) and belief in
ANY organized religion is illogical and unreasonable ( in my mind ) .

[hunter29180]

JohnHenry, I know many people who have tried to make major issues out of the different translations or versions of the Bible.

But the fact remains that ALL translations, ALL versions, preserve the main Christian doctrines. The actual differences are often taken as the basis for minor doctrinal differences, but these are NOT salvation issues.

Believe and be sprinkled.
Believe and be dunked.
Believe and do works.
Believe and give alms.
Believe and pay tithe.
Believe and witness.
Believe and handle snakes.

The central issue in ALL of these is - BELIEVE.
How or if you tithe, witness, get wet or have close encounters of a slithery kind are NOT salvation issues, regardless of the claims made by various denominations.
John 3:16 explains it all, and is essentually unchanged in any version.

We must be careful to separate the things a Christian should try to do to be a GOOD Christian from the things a Christian MUST do to be a Christian at all.

I think belief is overrated. that being said I think FAITH is the true path. by having Faith in GOD, I will come to believe in the true path God wishes me to be on. the 2 hardest parts of faith are 1) having Faith that there IS a GOD, with this Faith we come to believe he is real and becomes part of our daily life.

2) having accomplished #1 you now have faith that God does in fact answer prayers. the hard part is listening for the answer..is it the "still, small Voice?" or something else? something that happens to in fact answer the prayer? it takes time and a whole lot of FAITH to reliaze the prayer has been answered.
most people expect God to work a "miracial" in answering a prayer. this just isnt so. the answer many times is like God himself....almost invisable unless you really pay attention. and sometimes its like a trumpet in our head!

it takes Faith to Believe not belief to have Faith!

so to me SALVATION always begins with FAITH! the path to being saved begins with FAITH...true BELIEF can only come from ABSOLUTE FAITH.

[hunter29180]

JohnHenry, I know many people who have tried to make major issues out of the different translations or versions of the Bible.

But the fact remains that ALL translations, ALL versions, preserve the main Christian doctrines.

Believe and be sprinkled.
Believe and be dunked.
Believe and do works.
Believe and give alms.
Believe and pay tithe.
Believe and witness.
Believe and handle snakes.

John 3:16 explains it all, and is essentually unchanged in any version.

We must be careful to separate the things a Christian should try to do to be a GOOD Christian from the things a Christian MUST do to be a Christian at all.

i seem to remember Jesus SHOWING us the way..Did not JESUS seek out John the Baptist? he did so to be Baptised in the proper way. Imersion in water while being blessed with the holy spirit. (he already had the spirit) but God said you may not enter the Kingdom of Heavon except you are baptised in the proper way. so all these methods you mention above except 1 is MAN'S interpitation. and their in lays the problem. All these so called versions are MANS version of what they think GOD said. Only one version seems to be closest to the true WORD OF GOD. the rest seek to sugar coat the WORD and twist it to say what someone feels it should say. I seldom even consiter what someone says when they quote from any version other than the KING JAMES VERSION. even then if what is presented to me is diffrent than my currant belief, it gets prayed over til I either understand it or GOD indicated that my currant belief is proper. and yes I have found as I grow in GODS WORD that a belief sometimes has to change. But I find that God will only allow me to understand what I (me not you) am able to comprehend! much like we teach out own children. do you teach them algebra before they fully understand addition, subtraction ect? same principal applies to understanding GODS WORD. another gift GOD has given me is the understanding that to attempt to argue or force HIS word upon someone is counterproductive. It is satans way of sidetracking us. DIscussion with out condemnation is fine, acceptance and understanding of the other persons beliefs is proper. we do not have to agree as ones mans bread is anothers poision. we can believe only what we are developed enough to believe. and all things "SAID TO BE FROM GOD" needs to be prayed over for each person. acceptance will come and again we MUST HAVE FAITH THAT GOD WILL ANSWER EACH PERSONS PRAYERS!

[ampaterry]

In God, Johnhenry - in Jesus Christ. Belief in organized religion will only bring heartbreak, not salvation.

Hunter, Jesus did indeed show us the way we should live our lives. He showed us the way we should follow him and grow into mature Christians. But it is the initial belief (believeth, has faith, etc) in Jesus Christ (John 3:16) that makes us a Christian. Beyond that, the obedience is desired for growth, not required for salvation.
I practice full emersion believers baptism.
I practice the Lords Supper.
I practice infant dedication.
I practice gathering each week for worship service.
But if someone accepts Christ, fully, as the Lord of their life, but gets hit by a bus and killed without any of those, I do not believe they are damned for eternity.

But why quibble?
Who wants to just squeek by, when they can be a fully obedient Christian? Do them ALL!

[hunter29180]

I figured you did ampaterry! but the way you stated the first seemed open to discussion as to which came first..Belief or Faith! so i discussed my opinion! soap box crushed with weight of the topics in discussion in this thread! really enjoying this one!

[JohnHenry]

Folks .... I think that we have hit that wall of "Semantics" on this specific subject.
I'm gonna' bow out on this thread .... got to admit that I enjoyed the way that something this personal was handled by all that commented .

[ampaterry]

John, you are spot on. Semantics are EXTREMELY important!


I discuss and debate Creation vs Evolution, and find that the Atheistic Evolutionists, in MOST cases, will purposely twist semantics in order to convince people they are right.

The definition of evolution is simply that living things change over time.
This is absolutely true, undeniable, and is accepted by everyone.
So the Atheist Evolutionists will say:
"Evolution is a proven fact!"
And they are correct, using the TRUE definition of that word.

Then they proceed to talk about Common Descent, which is the belief that all life on this planet, both extinct and extant, descended from original single celled organisms. And when they discuss this DIFFERENT CONCEPT, they call it "evolution", which they have just established is a FACT.

A very sneaky and dishonest method of debate, but it is used virtually universally.

Semantics - definition of terms - these MUST be established before meaningful debate can be undertaken.

[RunningOnMT]

In God, Johnhenry - in Jesus Christ. Belief in organized religion will only bring heartbreak, not salvation.

Hunter, Jesus did indeed show us the way we should live our lives. He showed us the way we should follow him and grow into mature Christians. But it is the initial belief (believeth, has faith, etc) in Jesus Christ (John 3:16) that makes us a Christian. Beyond that, the obedience is desired for growth, not required for salvation.


What about:

"21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There are many today that teach that all one must do is believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as savior. That's a good start, however the Bible clearly states that repentence is required which will be evidenced by ones conduct (works). Repentence is more than simply saying "I'm sorry", but a sincere and deeply felt remorse that one has sinned against God with a firm intent not to do it again. Will they succeed? No, But they must have that intent. To many folks today simply making that profession of faith in Christ is little more than a license to sin, and I'm afraid that don't cut it.

[ampaterry]

ROMT, when I say believe in Jesus Christ, I do not mean merely believe he exists. For even the demons know he exists. I mean believe as in have complete faith and trust in him, to know he is God.
And when one comes to that realization in their gut, repentance is a very natural followthrough, and the desire to do what he wants one to do is a natural followthrough as well.

What is addressed in your quotes is hypocracy; those who pay lip service to God while having no real belief or faith in Him.

[RunningOnMT]

ROMT, when I say believe in Jesus Christ, I do not mean merely believe he exists. For even the demons know he exists. I mean believe as in have complete faith and trust in him, to know he is God.
And when one comes to that realization in their gut, repentance is a very natural followthrough, and the desire to do what he wants one to do is a natural followthrough as well.

What is addressed in your quotes is hypocracy; those who pay lip service to God while having no real belief or faith in Him.

OK...gotcha.:thumbsup:

[hunter29180]

ROMT, when I say believe in Jesus Christ, I do not mean merely believe he exists. For even the demons know he exists. I mean believe as in have complete faith and trust in him, to know he is God.:eek::eek:


Hey Partner..want to restate that statement?? I believe in Jesus Christ AND know him to be the SON of GOD..:):).I really dont think you believe otherwise either! if you do then ok.:(..but I really pictured you diffrently.:confused::confused:....

[Archie]

When St. Paul wrote the letter to the Romans - from where the OP gets the direction to be in submission to the civil authorities - the Roman Empire and the Roman Emperor ruled the 'known world'. Pretty much all of Europe, a goodly swath of North Africa, the Anatolian Peninsula, the Middle East and from there East to somewhere in what is now India. They were in charge, to put it mildly. And, odd as this may sound, they were a pretty decent governing body on the whole.

As a new 'sect' or religious group, Christianity had already been accused of being heretical AND of supporting a King in opposition or rival to the Roman Emperor. Paul was attempting to quiet that suspicion on the part of the Roman Empire.

Also, Paul was attempting to stop the silly notion that Christianity meant Christians were somehow exempt from the normal rules and obligations of being a citizen. Jesus Himself directed His followers to "...render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." Christians have no exemption from citizenship.

Which is not to say Christians are ordered to be pacifists and never object to injustice, unfairness, ungodly behavior or ungodly doctrine. It was the belief that the English government was violating the basic laws of God that lead to the American Revolution. It was the belief that Nazi Germany was violating the basic laws of God that lead to the U. S. involvement in the Second World War.

So where is the point at which - as Christians - we should rebel against a government? That's the rub, isn't it?

Nor can I give any hard and fast rule or rules which will always and for sure clearly mark what to do.

A few words about "... ordained by God..."

Everything that happens in history is known in advance to God. Since God does not exist in time - as humans almost understand it - but in Eternity, it could just as accurately be said God sees the whole of history as His past. However, nothing 'occurs' to God. No surprises, no shocks, no stunning revelations. Since God is omnipotent, nothing happens unless God allows it. Not that God causes it, but God allows; a subtle but important distinction.

Which is not to say God likes everything that happens. God created the Universe and humanity - and everything else if we know about it or not - and humanity decided to ignore God's directions and make up our own rules. This started with that snake and apple thing. It continues. The Bible speaks in several places about God being 'offended', 'grieved' or 'saddened' by people's actions. Because God allows humanity 'free will' - part of being created in God's image - God allows humanity to err, either by design or by misadventure.

What one person does affects other people. A drunk driver is not in some sort of 'event bubble'. Other people get destroyed automobiles, injuries and death due a separate drunk driver. When the German people who voted for Adolf Hitler as Chancellor elected him, all the German people were stuck with him. The same can be said for every U. S. President ever elected.

The point is, even though God sees all of history happening, He does not micromanage. Meaning, some governments - allowed to exist or 'ordained' by God - do violate God's laws of conduct. Those governments can be resisted in good faith as Christians. However, it must be done at the lowest level of force required. In other words, one can't round up and guillotine the lot of them if voting will solve the problem.

In fact, the Declaration of Independence has a good basis for revolution:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Thank you, Mr. Jefferson.

[Archie]

Hey Partner..want to restate that statement?? I believe in Jesus Christ AND know him to be the SON of GOD..:):).I really dont think you believe otherwise either! if you do then ok.:(..but I really pictured you diffrently.:confused::confused:....

Hmmm. Hunter, this is one of those areas where LDS followers and Christians differ in theology. I am with ampaterry in this declaration and belief. Jesus is in fact God.

I've heard similar things before from the LDS missionaries who come to my door and leave very frustrated and from a now-deceased uncle of mine who was LDS. I wonder now if the other LDS gentleman will disagree with what you said?

[ampaterry]

Hunter you are confusing the OFFICES of God with GOD.
God is all three;
God, the Father.
God, the Son.
God, the Holy Ghost.

Each of these offices is God, but none of these offices is equivalent to either of the other two.

I have a very distinct impression that our differences here are strictly semantic, not actual belief.

[hunter29180]

Sorry, i really have a hard time seeing a father being his own son. just impossible. since God made us in HIS image, it would follow that him being his own father is impossible also. so believe what you want. I respectfully refuse to believe this idea. as such I cannot accept much of what you say as a Pastor. sorry but thats me. last post in this forum section...

[RunningOnMT]

When St. Paul wrote the letter to the Romans - from where the OP gets the direction to be in submission to the civil authorities - the Roman Empire and the Roman Emperor ruled the 'known world'. Pretty much all of Europe, a goodly swath of North Africa, the Anatolian Peninsula, the Middle East and from there East to somewhere in what is now India. They were in charge, to put it mildly. And, odd as this may sound, they were a pretty decent governing body on the whole.

As a new 'sect' or religious group, Christianity had already been accused of being heretical AND of supporting a King in opposition or rival to the Roman Emperor. Paul was attempting to quiet that suspicion on the part of the Roman Empire.

Also, Paul was attempting to stop the silly notion that Christianity meant Christians were somehow exempt from the normal rules and obligations of being a citizen. Jesus Himself directed His followers to "...render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." Christians have no exemption from citizenship.

Which is not to say Christians are ordered to be pacifists and never object to injustice, unfairness, ungodly behavior or ungodly doctrine. It was the belief that the English government was violating the basic laws of God that lead to the American Revolution. It was the belief that Nazi Germany was violating the basic laws of God that lead to the U. S. involvement in the Second World War.

So where is the point at which - as Christians - we should rebel against a government? That's the rub, isn't it?

Nor can I give any hard and fast rule or rules which will always and for sure clearly mark what to do.

A few words about "... ordained by God..."

Everything that happens in history is known in advance to God. Since God does not exist in time - as humans almost understand it - but in Eternity, it could just as accurately be said God sees the whole of history as His past. However, nothing 'occurs' to God. No surprises, no shocks, no stunning revelations. Since God is omnipotent, nothing happens unless God allows it. Not that God causes it, but God allows; a subtle but important distinction.

Which is not to say God likes everything that happens. God created the Universe and humanity - and everything else if we know about it or not - and humanity decided to ignore God's directions and make up our own rules. This started with that snake and apple thing. It continues. The Bible speaks in several places about God being 'offended', 'grieved' or 'saddened' by people's actions. Because God allows humanity 'free will' - part of being created in God's image - God allows humanity to err, either by design or by misadventure.

What one person does affects other people. A drunk driver is not in some sort of 'event bubble'. Other people get destroyed automobiles, injuries and death due a separate drunk driver. When the German people who voted for Adolf Hitler as Chancellor elected him, all the German people were stuck with him. The same can be said for every U. S. President ever elected.

The point is, even though God sees all of history happening, He does not micromanage. Meaning, some governments - allowed to exist or 'ordained' by God - do violate God's laws of conduct. Those governments can be resisted in good faith as Christians. However, it must be done at the lowest level of force required. In other words, one can't round up and guillotine the lot of them if voting will solve the problem.

In fact, the Declaration of Independence has a good basis for revolution:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Thank you, Mr. Jefferson.

Excellent explanation Archie. Thank you.

[ampaterry]

Sorry, i really have a hard time seeing a father being his own son. just impossible. since God made us in HIS image, it would follow that him being his own father is impossible also. so believe what you want. I respectfully refuse to believe this idea. as such I cannot accept much of what you say as a Pastor. sorry but thats me. last post in this forum section...

Hunter, no one said the Father is the Son, nor has anyone said the Son is the Father. "Father", "Son" and "Holy Ghost" are not completely separate individuals, but are rather three offices of GOD.

As I said, the trinity is a very difficult concept.

I did not make this up; everything I believe about the trinity is straight out of scripture, Hunter.

Jesus said in
John 10:30 (KJV);
I and my Father are one.

[tcox4freedom]

Romans 13 (NIV)

Submission to Governing Authorities

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


I have always understood that we are supposed to live in the world as pilgrims passing through a strange land; we adhere to its laws and authority, and try to make it a better place while here, but realize it is not our actual Home and our stay is only temporary. I think we all are guilty sometimes of getting too caught up in politics and forgetting that we are citizens of another Kingdom, one "not of this world". I believe it is OK to try and make ourselves a little more comfortable while here, but not so comfortable that we start to think we belong here. In the meantime, God is still on the Throne and everything, even world government, is subject to Him.

We're of one accord here lawdawg

[RunningOnMT]

This topic has driven Bible scholars batty for centuries but just because we can't understand it is no reason to reject it. I am convinced that the Bible is the inerrant word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Numerous scriptures state emphatically that Jesus Christ is the son of God, but in His own words Christ has said he was with the father in the beginning. He has the full essence of His Father and is therefore God. Beware of any religion that teaches anything else.

John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the Beginning. Through Him all things were made and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

We are created beings and have limitations. Many things are beyond our comprehension. It's amazing that people will listen to scientists with far out theories about the nature of the universe, but will scoff at the words of the of the one who created it.

[doubleshot]

I've been troubled lately by several sermons I listened to regarding obedience to authority. These sermons were given by someone for whom I have always had a great deal of respect. I have never found anything this pastor teaches to be in conflict with scripture.

Basically he says that all authority on earth, be it good or evil, is ordained by God. That as Christians we are to render strict obedience except where obedience would require you to violate the law of God. He uses a number of examples from both the old and new testement, of how God's people always obeyed even evil and unjust rulers, except when they were commanded to violate God's law, say for example by bowing down and worshipping idols.

This is a problem for me as I've always been a bit of a rebel against authority I've thought was wrong; not just in a Biblical sense, but as a matter of civil justice. In these times, considering those presently in power, the need to participate in some form of civil disobedience at some point seems quite possible.

Secondly, if obedience to God means obedience to civil authority, where would we be today had the founders followed this precept? We never would have had an American revolution. Therefore two things must be true; the American revolution was wrong and disobedient to God but yet was ordained by Him. If this is true would not a second revolution also be ordained by God? As another example; if I understand this correctly, it would have been wrong for German citizens to try to kill Hitler. That is hard for me to swallow.

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?

I can post links to a few of these sermons if anyone would careto hear them but for now I just want to see how you all feel about this.

Until it goes against your conscience obey.

[doubleshot]

Not picking on you JH. You bring up good points.

Faith is something you have or you dont. You must have the option to freely choose it.

Do you believe Jesus rose Lazarist from the dead?

Do you believe Jesus healed the sick, healed the lepper?

Do you belive he rose from the dead?

Do you believe the apostiles?

Do you believe in every day miricles? Read the thread 254 in this forum. They happen every day.

Man can certainly muff things up when it comes to religion. But dont let that deny your faith or salvation.

The demons also believe and tremble

[pipeman525]

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

God does speak to us through his word. We are not insignificant creatures, we are his prized posession, He created us in his image. He gave us free will so we would choose to love him and would not be forced to as that would not be love at all.
I suggest you go somewhere quiet and admit to God and yourself that you need him in your life. Accept the fact that He sent his son Jesus Christ here to die for our sins so that we would not have to pay for them. Ask him to come into your life and make the changes he needs to make. These changes may not be easy or what you would like, but it will be pleasing to Him.
Start reading your Bible daily and you will find certain verses seem to jump off the page at you. This is one way he will speak to you.

[nightwalker]

Good idea about junkers to turn in. That issue of shooting to defend my right to keep guns is bothersome.

[Python]

[I]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14..The Word became flesh and dwelt among us..

[Python]

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?



The 2ndAmmendment says "Shall not be infringed". Should the government come to get my guns it is they, be it a LEO or the military, that is breaking the law by going against the Constitution. "Shall not be infringed" stands it's ground in opposition to Martial Law/tyranny. If my government is to violate my Constitutional right by threatening my life in an effort to confiscate my guns, my conscience is clear if they die in the process. The 2nd was put into place just for that kind of injustice. My father told me many years ago.. "when they come for your guns, that's the time to use them". My father was a LEO.

[45nut]

The only way I can answer a Christian's internal struggle in this area--and I think that every thinking Christian has this struggle at least occasionally--is by questioning our focus. Throughout the New Testament, we don't see any of Jesus followers attempting to change earthly government. Even when the governments violently persecuted and executed these people, the focus of the biblical Christians was never on this world.
Personally, I am very dissatisfied with our government.

Yes, but if you look at Peter and some of the other disciples questions they surely thought and expected Jesus to take over and have an earthly kingdom even after the ressurection. Not until He ascended into Heaven did they finally get the idea that this was something different.

Check it out.

[Sorrowful Jones]

I believe in God, the Creator .... I have no thoughts on Jesus, one way or another. So, it follows that I do not react to the dictates of ANY organized religion. I'm not just referring to various Christian versions of religion .... I mean all organized religions .

Some time back this topic came up in another forum that I am on and I wrote a reply. I would like to paste it on here. If the Moderators feel it is wrong for this thread, feel free to remove it. Here's what I wrote......


Your post intrigues me. From what I can read between the lines, you appear to be someone who is lost, but looking. Let me try to help.
I was raised in the Southern Baptist church. It’s one of the “organized religions” you speak of. One of the things I was taught early on is that believing is a CHOICE. One chooses to believe or not. In my opinion there will never be any “scientific proof” that God exists, and I do not believe that God is going to come down, thump you on the head, and say “Dude, you got it”. In the Bible, the book of Ephesians 2:8 it says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God.” (We’ll get back to this one later). With that being said, the basis of Christianity is the Holy Bible. I believe the Bible. I believe it is the word of God. I believe it was written by humans, but divinely inspired. I believe the Bible in its literal translation, and I do not believe it is just a metaphorical or symbolic story. I believe it is the truth and it is infallible. I believe it is the basis upon which we should base our lives. I also know there is a lot in it that I don’t understand. Just because I don’t understand it all doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I CHOOSE to believe it is true. Because I do believe the Bible, I also believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he is the Son of God. I believe he was born of the Virgin Mary (a human, not a deity), lived a sinless life, was crucified on the cross, and rose from the dead. I also believe He is coming back. I also believe in John 14:16 where it says: “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Our only way is through Jesus Christ.
We had preachers who “preached” to us on how we should live our lives. In my way of thinking, preachers ought to be viewed as more “teacher” than “preacher”. They are there to educate us on the ways we should go, and they are there to try and convince us to accept Christ into our lives. This is not to mean they are perfect or that they do not sin (for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God). Preachers sin too. I accept that and will not use “hypocrisy” as a copout or an excuse not to believe. In my view people who claim they do not like being “preached to” are simply trying to avoid admitting they, too, are sinners. Perhaps they have some resistance to what they perceive as “authority”. Maybe they feel as though an “organized religion” is too constrictive. Maybe they prefer to find a religion that fits their lifestyle, rather than conform their lifestyle to fit a religion. I don’t know. I know someone who said he didn't like going to a Baptist church because he didn't want to feel beat up after the sermon. Well, I know that feeling. I have felt beat up too sometimes....but the real, honest truth is the reason I felt that way was because the preacher hit too close to home. I do believe some preachers/pastors sometimes lose their direction. If this happens I will change churches, not my religion. What I do know is that if one chooses not to accept Christ because he/she has not found a perfect, sinless, church/ pastor, that person will never accept Christ because that type of perfection in a church /pastor does not exist. I think we ought to worry less about what others do (or fail to do) and worry more about ourselves doing right.

You mentioned “prayer healing dying people”. Where in the world did you get the idea that prayer alone heals dying people? Apparently someone has told you that it does. It doesn’t. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that prayer alone will heal anyone. I do believe that prayer is a powerful force but it is God that heals. Prayer helps, I think. We should pray for the sick, but prayer is merely a request. We are asking God to heal. He may, or He may not. Life and death is His to take or give and sometimes the answer is no. I don’t pretend to understand all of that. I don’t know why God allows tragedy to befall a child, for example. I do believe that God knows why, and there IS a reason for it. He never promised that we would know all the answers. We should accept, by faith, that His reasons are just.
Speaking of “by faith”…. The quote I mentioned above (“For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God”) comes to mind. I once asked a preacher friend of mine what is the hardest part of getting people saved. He said the hardest part is making people realize they need saving in the first place. The Bible teaches that when we die those who are saved will spend an eternity in Heaven. Those who are not will be in satan’s hell forever. We should first realize that we all are sinners and not worthy of Heaven. Admit it. Ask for forgiveness. This does not mean we will stop sinning, but it should mean that we will TRY. We should repent, which means we should do everything we can to avoid repeating sins that we have asked forgiveness for.
We are saved through FAITH. That means we choose to believe. We accept Christ even there is no scientific proof that He exists. That’s what faith is, believing in something although it cannot be proven. The grace part is this: God doesn’t HAVE to save us. Certainly no one is making Him save us. It is only because He said He WILL save us if we accept Him.
The “not of yourselves, It is the gift of God” means this: We cannot save ourselves. It does not matter that we are “good ol’ boys” or that we don’t cheat on our spouses, lie, steal or talk bad about someone’s mother. Of course we should not do those things, but in addition, it does not matter how much work we do for the church or how much money we give. We cannot buy our way into Heaven. We must accept Christ, acknowledge that we are sinners, ask for forgiveness, and do our best not to repeat our sins. Oh, and another thing … just saying the words or mouthing some exact words that someone tells you to repeat won’t work. God knows our heart. He knows if we really mean it or not. We can’t fool Him.
Just one final thought……… I have heard it said that “I’m too old and have sinned too much to be saved.” Or “I have not been to church in many years so I can’t be saved.” That’s not true. The Bible tells us that while hanging on the cross, Jesus had two thieves on each side of Him. One thief acknowledged Jesus and repented, the other did not. Jesus said to the first thief…”Today you will be with me in paradise.”
It’s our choice. Free will. Free will to be saved or free will to go straight to hell if we choose. I hope you reconsider. You are gambling with your eternity.

....again, I wrote the above for another forum, but I hope someone here benifits.
SJ