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Murphy Powder Error

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#1 ·
Murphy almost struck while I was loading some 7.62X54R using some extruded IMR4060 powder. I was using my Lee Turret with the Lee rifle powder die feeding it thru the top using a Lee funnel. All was going well. I had just poured some powder thru the funnel when the wife came into the garage and spoke to me and left. In that interruption, I continued the cycle with cycling the press handle. Fortunately Lee jars the turret as the die shift positions. That jarring then dislodged the extruded powder that was glombed together in the narrow portion of the funnel and it went everywhere. While most of it was in the casing, there was a fair amount left in that narrow exit of the funnel. Had it not jarred loose, that could of resulted in less charge in the casing in the press and more powder in the next casing. I peak into the casing prior to the bullet so would I have caught the slightly different level of powder??!!?? I'd like to think I would. I had been feeding the powder in and tapping the top of the funnel to begin with but in that interruption, I didn't. At any rate. Thought I'd pass this along so it might prevent a repeat of my error for another cause it should not have occurred!
 
#3 ·
Interruptions though well meaning.Glad you caught it.I still have questions to ask you.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Good idea to always check, and double check, what you are doing. I use a Lee turret press, and have worked out a system where I can stop at any point of the reloading process, and come back to it at any time, and pick up right where I left off no matter at what stage I was at.
 
#5 ·
There is no reason to use extruded stick powders that not only are a problem for my Dillon RL550B but can be a problem for other powder delivery methods as well. Powder measures have the most problems but power funnels can too.

Hodgdon distributes many powders that mimic the performance of old fashioned extruded stick powders. Some are short cut versions of the IMR series and others are ball powders with tiny sizes that meter well.

I have strict rules about being interrupted during reloading but the cat just will not follow them. I just don't pay attention to her. Since it is me and the cat there is no concentration problem in my house. :) :)
 
#8 ·
Politely tell your wife to keep outta your reloading area when you are loading! I know that's hard to do without an argument or sounding like a butt, but it is necessary. If there is an interruption I normally keep going until I reach an "unimportant/safe place" in the process, then answer the pounding on the door or the wife yelling "Listen to me!"...

BTW IMR 4064 is my favorite long gun powder (and the only one I can find!) for my 30-06.
 
#16 ·
I love IMR 4064. I use it for my 30.06, .375H&H, and my .308. I'm sure there are some powders better suited to any one of these calibers, and I've tried a lot of them. One that comes to mind is IMR4350. But, IMR4064 works so well and my pet loads using it are so accurate in my rifles that I use it almost exclusively.
I'm not interested in getting the highest velocities possible, it works for me. And yes, there should be NO distractions while reloading, no cell phone, no TV, no radio, and most importantly...no friends or wife!
 
#10 ·
Good reminder and heads-up. My wife has also interuptted me while reloading and when I return, I often forget the last thing I did (depending on the length of the interuption) so I often backup and empty the shell plate before I resume.
Lots of good suggestions. I think you probably hit it for me on backing up and starting over. That is a good memory muscle technique.
 
#13 ·
I had the same problem at one point MANY years ago while loading cast bullets. My nephew came over and interrupted me. Thing is I was using IMR 4227 in 30-06. This case will EASILY take a double load and did. So after a vintage Springfield 03-A4 was destroyed, 2 months of having eyes bandaged from burns and carrying brass in my face and skull for the rest of my life, no one ever interrupts me while loading now. Hard lesson and thank God I lived through 3 rounds that were double charged. The 4th one gave way.
 
#17 ·
It's been my experience that all extruded IMR powders are subject to bridging. When using these powders I always throw and weigh every charge. It takes only a bit longer to do it this way, but I don't over or under charge that way. The only powders that I make an exception to this rule are ball powders or some flake powders. I don't intend to discontinue using IMR powders because of the possibility of bridging, the positive results outweigh any small time inconvenience.
 
#20 ·
When using these powders I always throw and weigh every charge. It takes only a bit longer to do it this way, but I don't over or under charge that way.
That right there, HIGHLY important, and not just for those powders...
Weigh between powder load & bullet...weigh after placing the bullet.
This also gives you an extra moment for visual inspection...
I prefer the OCD method of reloading, which keeps me alive...

The Army Marksmanship Unit has a Very Nice Setup...
I highly suggest a visit, or if not possible, at least grab one of the vids they did on reloading.
it will probably lead to you modding your whole setup to something very similar to theirs...if yer smart ;)
 
#21 ·
drymag:

Since all methods of getting the powder into the case is via a funnel, hand weighing each load may not be good enough. Seems like you have to inspect the mouth of the funnel to be assured all the powder long kernels get delivered to the case. When you transfer the powder from a powder measure directly into a case that measure usually has a knocker on it to be assured every last kernel gets into the case. Maybe mounting the powder measure directly on the powder delivery die and would be a better idea since you can use the knocker to jar any bridging loose.

Not all IMR type powders are long kerneled. Hodgdon sells short cut version of some of the better ones. IMR 4064 is not a very popular powder and that may be the reason some found it still on the shelf all alone with no competitors. For my Dillon its funnel is part of the powder deliver system but that same system clicks and clunks and shakes enough that any caught kernel is likely to get knocked loose. But I still gravitate towards short cut or spherical powders for safety's sake. Years ago in the peak usage of IMR powders there were no other choices. That is not true today. I suggest picking safety over absolute accuracy. If Varget is close in accuracy maybe you should use it instead, if you can find any any time soon (I just looked and all powders everywhere are on back order except black powder substitutes which you can get by the ton).

LDBennett
 
#23 ·
We use to use the horse and buggy but over time we now have the automobile. In that same time period ball and short cut extruded powders became available. If you use them you can go back to a powder measure or maybe even a progressive press.

Then there is the fact that weighing every charge is a waste as the error you get using ball or extruded short cut powders is insignificant compared to all the other variables in reloading ammunition. (This is not only my opinion but several reloading expert journalist have stated that very same thing.) Ammo made on a progressive press like a Dillon can be as accurate as the best ammo made the way you do it. In fact the best factory ammo is made on automated machinery probably no more accurate in delivering the powder than a good powder measure and ball or short cut extruded powder. Better factory ammo today is hard to beat for accuracy even hand loading the way you do.

There is no need to suffer doing it the way you do it for little to no gains and most certainly when it comes to handgun ammo. But here's a warning if you ever decide to go full progressive press: The only ones that are reliable are the Hornady LNL and my favorite the Dillon RL550B. Mine is versatile and makes good ammo. I use it on handgun ammo and a couple dozen rifle cartridges as well. The worst mistake I ever made through several decades of lots of reloading was using LEE equipment. Virtually all of it is sub-par compared to RCBS, Hornady, Dillon, Lyman, Forester, and Redding. I bought it all and have been trashing it as time goes on. 95% of it is gone and good riddance.

LDBennett
 
#24 ·
Recognizing that you are an experienced person of this forum, I will try to put this as IMO. I do use a lot of ball power, BL-C2, which is amazing in all my equipment and in most of my ammo. Have not used short cut kernels so I have no opinion. I have heard great things from it. I have used long kernel and ball powder in Lyman, RCBS and Lee powder measures. Sometimes good results, sometimes not. They all 3 can vary in grains dropped by +-3 whole grains. My loads never vary more than 1/10th of a grain. My standard of ammo. Thus being this precise on powder gives you insight on the rest of the steps into my ammo making.
As far as a progressive press system being this accurate or even a powder measure, IMO, I doubt it. Out of every ammunition manufacturer that I could buy for my .308 Win, only one came equal to it. Lapua, with Sako and Norma coming in after in that order. Remington Gold Medal Match didn't even place and I like their brass. These instances are just in my weapon. But definitely not up to par with my loads. As far as using better named brands of loading equipment, this I do. My dies are Forster,Bench Rest neck sizing and seater, plus full length sizer for re-forming brass, along with their coax press. And their cases trimmer complete with neck turning attachment. Also their headspace gauge to set the barrel on my rifle. Wilson case checker to make sure my cases are in spec. I do realize there are better powder measures out there than what I have used, like Harrell, but those are not in my price justification range. I'm not making money at this, so Harrell isn't being bought. As far as handgun ammo is concerned. If it will function the action and still hit a 8.5 x 11 piece of paper at 25', that's all I care. No need for me to spend the money on an automated machine, cause I'm not going to shoot that much pistol.
But everytime I drop one of my tedious, time wasting handloads into my chamber, I will outdo every domestic ammo. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. I've tried it. But like I said in the beginning, this is my opinion. And I was just trying to help give insight to another.
 
#25 ·
karlrudin:

It is hard to know the experience level of someone reporting here. So I assume that person has the minimum level as expressed in their query. I think it better to give too much information than not enough for safety's sake. Many reloaders who shoot like a Bench Rest competitor do it as you do. The rest of us cut a few corners and still meet our accuracy criteria which might be different than yours. My thought was that you were doing it your way because you did not realize there was another easier way but obviously that was not the case at all.

If I had to do it the way you do it I'd give up reloading altogether. I wish not to make such an huge investment in my time just to maybe get to an insignificant increase in accuracy. But we all get to choose and your choice is a good one for you just as mine is for me and maybe a few others out there. In recent times I had to reload for a 50BMG gun and had to load with the scoop method as you do. It was not all that irksome but I'd hate to do it that way for every one of my 30+ cartridges that I reload for. I champion progressive reloading (specifically Dillon) because many who come here have not been introduced to this excellent and time saving method of making excellent ammo. Since you mentioned LEE scoops I thought you might use LEE equipment which I loath for good reasons.

I hope I did not offend you. I come here to help those that query here and nothing more.

LDBennett
 
#26 ·
First and foremost, you did not offend me in the least :). No harm, no foul. I consider the information you post here insightful and informative. Like you said, it is hard to know the experience level of the posters here. Listening to some here, they have been doing this a long time or have been professionally trained and both are here to help. I to, am also here to put input in and hope my trials and errors others can learn by. Be it by easing an operation or by means of safety.
I had mentioned in another post on why I spend soooo much time prepping cases, for instance. By making my cases exactly the same, by the means I have, literally cut my group sizes in half. Yes, not everyone needs or WANTS to spend as much time loading as I do. And you are right, certainly there is no need for everyone to load like I do. Sticking to any reputable loading manual(not LEE) and one can produce lots of ammo in a short time that is completely satisfactory.
I would love to find a faster way to load the way I expect my ammo to perform. Don't see it happening. As far as pistol, not much care for me there. My dad obsessed on accurate pistol ammo like I do on rifle. We all have our own degree of what we expect from our ammo. This is a mute point as long as that person is happy with it and it is SAFE. I like this forum and the people in it. There is vast knowledge and personalities, also which I enjoy. I will be here enjoying our sport, activity or obsession with the rest of the people here and will try to help or listen to all. Thank you, also, for you information on progressive presses.
 
#27 ·
I like reloading, I don't mind spending time handling each case and charge.. May not be more accurate, but is safe, and I get to look the brass over alot, I mainly shoot rifle, not pistol, so less ammo usage, makesa diffetence
 
#28 ·
Seriously, if I had to reload with a single stage press and handle each case the way some do then I would give up reloading. I did it that way back in the 1960's and hated it so much I quit after only a couple of sessions. I did not return to reloading until the late 1980's when I found the Dillon progressive presses. Progress reloading is better for me! But each of us is different.

LDBennett
 
#30 ·
i look forward to handling each case.. too much powder, too close to my face just to keep pulling the handle like a slot machine.. ;)

then again my shooting habits are different.

some people like to take 300 rounds out to the range and blow up targets all day. I generally load up only 2-3 rifles and may only put 5 rounds thru each

i can re process those 15 rounds after dinner while waiting for a tv program to come on or something..e tc.

no pressure to get 300 45acp or 9mm loaded up for my next !blam! fest. :)

as you said. we each find something different in it.

while i would not call my ammo match grade.. I do know i have rifles and loads that will shoot flies on the target at 100 yards repeatedly, just leaving holes in the paper with lil legs on either side of it. I'm certian hand charging / weighing each charge down to the kernel sometimes, and lots of hand prep and inspection on each cartridge must make some difference.
 
#29 ·
used to use a powder that would hang a bit at times,, dont use it anymore,, and as for the gf that would do the interrupting,, she thought the world was supposed to be centered around her :( and would get upset if she didnt get immeadiate attention ,, ya, she's gone tooo ... current understands the need for no interuptions and my be around longer :p
 
#31 ·
sound guy:

I keep stores of ammo for each and every one of my guns. I typically make ammo up in lots of 100 to 200 for rifles and 200 to 300 for pistols. I have nearly 100 firearms. Obviously there are repeats in calibers and perhaps a third are 22LR but I am set up for reloading 30+ different cartridges. I keep ahead of my demand such that I can decide on a whim to shoot any gun in my collection today and not be ammo limited.

Now can you imagine the time involved in doing the reloading with a single stage press. A measurable part of the time is in setting up the equipment. By doing larger lots I minimize the overhead of setups. When I worked I would take our long holiday time off to reload and might reload a couple thousands rounds in a weeks time. I am retired now so I reload in smaller batches than that and probably more often but I have other things I like to do and filling all my time doing only reloading with a single stage press is not my desire at all. My load development has an end. When I reach good enough for me it stops. From that point on it is shooting for fun, not working at load development. My system works for me.

I keep mentioning this but John Barsness, a noted shooting journalist who might be a reloading expert, points out in one of his How-to videos that a lot of the case prep and powder measuring to the tenth of a grain is wasted because variables beyond our control swamp out any gain from most of those excessive efforts. If it makes you happy to do it then great but you may be wasting time and effort doing it unless your testing proves without a doubt that there is something to be gained. There is nothing to be gained for me so I don't do it that way. I load everything progressive including using the auto powder measure that is part of the Dillon RL550B. I have done excessive case prep in the past and saw no advantage when comparisons to the way I do it now were made. I have, as a test, short circuited the Dillion auto powder measurement with a Redding Competition BR30 with no discernible increase in accuracy. I have turned case necks, indexed cases into the gun and no measurable improvement were noted. So for me my progressive reloading works great or at least good enough to satisfy me.

But we all get to choose. It is paramount that we keep it safe!

LDBennett
 
#35 ·
Good point, and something I think I ran into last week. I was reloading with RL-15, first using up about a 1/3 bottle of stuff I bought over a year ago, then using a can I bought last month. When the powder hopper dropped to the last few charges of the old stuff, I poured new powder on top and continued loading. At my next checkstop, about 10 rounds along, I weighed my charge and found it to be wildly different!

I emptied all ten, then refilled, weighing each one this time, then reset the powder charge and carried on with the new powder with no further adjustments needed. I'm assuming that the old powder, despite being in an air conditioned shop, had changed density due to humidity variations over the past year. Another good reason to check often!!!
 
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#39 ·
I enjoy reading threads like this, they are both informative and thought provoking! Being new to reloading (and not in a hurry) I decided on a single stage loader and I start with 100 cases in a tray that have been cleaned, sized and trimmed then I add primers to all of the cases then I stick the powder holder/dispenser in the loader and add powder to each case, actually I was told even though the dispenser is set to a certain grain portion to dispense the powder into the little measuring pan THEN sit the pan on my scale to insure I do indeed have the proper amount THEN pour that into the case and move on to the next case.

I don't mind the slowness of this process and feel comfortable that I have exactly what I want in each case AND my yorkie can disrupt me all he wants and it doesn't disrupt the flow but I am aware that Murphy is ever present so am still watchful.

I wonder if Murphy has any friends at all!
 
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