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What Do Luger Numbers Represent?

13K views 19 replies 12 participants last post by  gdmoody 
#1 ·
I'd always assumed that every Luger had it's own unique number ... but thinking about this deeper leaves me a bit perplexed.

I've never seen a Luger with a number larger than 4 digits... if we use the full set, this allows for 10,000 unique numbers. I've read online that the German and Axis powers fielded 15,000,000 soldiers in WWII. If we make the conservative guess that only 10% of this force were issued such serial numbered
Lugers, and if each Luger were uniquely numbered, this would require a 7 digit number. I've never seen a Luger showing more than a four digit number, plus I've never heard of two Lugers with the same number. So one of these observations is wrong... either there are a lot of Lugers around with higher than 4 digit numbers... or there are a lot of Lugers around with the same identical numbers.

If rather than the numbers being unique to one particular gun, the numbers instead represent one particular gunsmith,, or one particular gunsmith team, or one one particular gunsmith shop/factory... this is starting to make better sense (this leads to the conclusion that there can potentially be many guns with the same number).

If these numbers then refer to the maker's ID rather than the gun's own ID... does it make sense that every part of the gun would be manufactured by the exact same individual - as in the case of a gun with all matched numbers? Wouldn't Axis gunsmith shops/factories have figured out the magic of industrial scale specialization/division of labor such that one man or team specialized in barrels and was particularly tooled for this, while another person/team was particularly tooled and specialized in ejector/firing-pin assemblies, etc? Rather than all of these persons/teams using the same number, wouldn't it make the most sense (from a quality control point at least) for each such person/team to use their own unique number?

Speculating on the likely mass production environment of these Lugers... it seems possible/likely that completed Lugers would be rolling out of the gunsmith shops/factories as new with all "mis-matched numbers" representing the multiple persons and teams that went into the final (precise jigsaw-puzzle like) assembly.

In this scenario... guns with completely matched number sets should seem a peculiar curio... perhaps the product of smaller shops/factories that could better afford the time (the war time luxury) to produce such numerically matched, numerically perfect examples.

Is it a known/accepted observation that there are a lot of Lugers around with the same four and two digit numbers?
 
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#2 ·
That's what the little letter is for. German military numbered the guns 0001 to 9999. Then they started over. a0001 to a9999. Start over b0001 to b9999. This allowed 270,000. If they needed more, then they started over again with a0001. And (I'm pretty sure) each manufacturer had his own numbers. So there might be an Erfurt number a1111 and a Mauser number a1111.

Your gun looks, to me, to be q7711.

 
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#3 ·
Ahh! This adds quite a bit of extended range to the 4 digit scheme! You're saying this allows 270,000 unique combos but you're only showing 26 letters... there's probably an additional German-specific letter not shown in the chart. So... Can you address my question about whether or not a number on a gun is unique to the gun (that is within the above identified 270,000 prospective number range), or if the numbers instead signified any maker/team/shop/factory ID value? If it's unique to the gun and we can guess that at least 1.5 million pieces were manufactured... your 270,000 scheme would suggest that there might have been manufactured at least ~6 Lugers with the exact same letter/number combination... and ~150 with the same numbers (but different letters)...

Is anyone aware whether or not any two Lugers have ever been seen with the exact same 2 and 4 digit numbers between them? So the chances of this should be: without respect to the extra letter character - 1 in 1000... In respect (including) the little letter character - 1 in 270,000.

Is this correct?
 
#5 ·
Ahh! This adds quite a bit of extended range to the 4 digit scheme! You're saying this allows 270,000 unique combos but you're only showing 26 letters... there's probably an additional German-specific letter not shown in the chart. So... Can you address my question about whether or not a number on a gun is unique to the gun (that is within the above identified 270,000 prospective number range), or if the numbers instead signified any maker/team/shop/factory ID value? If it's unique to the gun and we can guess that at least 1.5 million pieces were manufactured... your 270,000 scheme would suggest that there might have been manufactured at least ~6 Lugers with the exact same letter/number combination... and ~150 with the same numbers (but different letters)...

Is anyone aware whether or not any two Lugers have ever been seen with the exact same 2 and 4 digit numbers between them? So the chances of this should be: without respect to the extra letter character - 1 in 1000... In respect (including) the little letter character - 1 in 270,000.

Is this correct?
You have the 10,000 each for a through z - 26 letters = 260,000, but you also have the original 10,000, before any letters were added. 270,000.

And, since there is really only 9999 per run (no SN 0000), it's 260,973. :p
 
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#4 ·
In addition to a manufacturers name (i.e. DWM, Mauser, Simpson Erfurt, etc.) there also were manufacturers codes (i.e. byf, S/42 etc.) and early on some had year dates on the chamber. Taking all of these factors into account, I don't believe there were any absolute duplications.
 
#6 ·
Ahh! Good point about the "no letter" value... so we have a prospective hit range of ~270k. And then add in the several distinct manufacturers... and our prospective number range is steadily increasing.

The chart Alpo reproduces shows some letters multiple times... I'm assuming this is for clarity's sake - showing what slightly different versions of each character will look like. But the multiple letters brings up another thought... Have any guns been seen with more than a single letter... 2 "a"s , 2 "b"s, etc?

Now I'm seeing that it's increasingly possible that there were almost enough numbers to uniquely number every Luger coming off of the various assembly lines. But... war time mass/fast production guns with matched numbers still don't make complete sense to me. What's the significance and usefulness in the war time reality of having a Luger with matched numbers as opposed to one with mismatched numbers? Were soldiers and/or officers carrying these arms as tools aware of this issue? I guess I'm asking whether all new guns issued to the first user were always with matching numbers?

If this "new=matching numbers" is the case... how did we get to the point of such a large number (the majority?) of Luger's NOT having matching numbers? Someone somewhere disassembled a very large number of Lugers... then willy-nilly put them back together again (mismatching all the originally matched numbers)? I guess such an odd thing could have happened after the war somewhere for some reason. If this is the case... isn't it likely that many of these mismatched Lugers are still floating around in collectors possession somewhere on Earth? ... just waiting to be reunited and re-matched... made numerically whole again?
 
#10 ·
My 1916 DWM has two different sets of numbers. The entire upper assembly - barrel, barrel extension, breech block and toggle train etc. is one set of matching numbers, including the last two digits on the extractor and sear, while the lower assembly - frame, sideplate etc. - is another. I know the pistol's not a Soviet refurb, so I'm guessing it was probably an ordnance rebuild of war-weary P.08s using the upper assembly of one pistol and the lower of another. Just as a point of interest perhaps, the frame's serial is just a four digit number without the usual letter. The barrel's number, on the other hand, is four digits and a letter.
 
#8 ·
Europeans were much concerned about keeping thier weapons 'as issued'. Seems to me that most of those mis-match weapons were either the result of the USSR refurb process for captured German weapons, or those captured by American GIs who had no appreciation for keeping that "Nazi crap" original.

That's not MY point of view - just that from what I learned from my parents who were alive and who had served in those times. Dad was an Infantryman in the European theater and didn't have a bunch of reverance for the Nazis or anything associated with them. He did bring back some captured weapons.
 
#9 ·
The reason behind having matching numbers (just the last few digits matching or sometimes an assembly number) is that even though the manufacturing process was mostly automated, there was still a need for final hand fitting of the parts, therefor matching numbers to keep the parts together.
Modern machining is much more exact and most parts are "drop in" and don't require hand fitting,so inmost cases the parts aren't numbered. (An early example would be the Colt M1911 and 11A1, although between the war examples had the slide numbered to the frame. Possibly because there was not as big a rush to get guns out the door and a little more time could be taken with them)

If you want to see an extreme case of parts marking, both serial and assembly numbers, check out the follow pictorial of a M1873 French Ord. Revolver.
http://deadin.info/webpics/M1873
 
#11 ·
The observation that there was a need for hand fitting of parts (which then resulted in the final unified/matched numbering scheme) suggests that mismatched numbers will show mismatched parts. To my eye, I can't perceive any mismatch of parts within my mismatched Luger... everything looks 100% perfect.

I was under an impression that parts between the same manufacturer (and probably even between manufacturers) will be 100% drop in replacements for the same part in any similar Luger. This adds to my confusion about the usefulness (particularly war time usefulness) of the matched numbering system.

The observation that many mismatches occurred during "arsenal rebuilds" where they didn't care at all about "matching number" fanciness supports the supposition that these parts are essentially interchangeable (not actually requiring unique "fitting" of any sort). So maybe the matched Lugers are a sign of a more relaxed time in the war time production where the artsy/showiness of the pretty matched numbers was a luxury the chain of command could tolerate of the factories... but eventually it became a clear sign that they weren't producing to their maximum capabilities (in the sense that the matched numbers didn't provide any essential/required usefulness and the artsy effort definitely cut down on production potentials)...

The French revolver probably came out of a production system with little or no specialization of labor... one person or team made the entire assembly (hence the same numbers on every part). It doesn't make sense to me that the Germans would be doing this in the 1930's after the world wide popularity of Henry Ford's mass assembly production lines (with the specialist units for each sub-assembly)... The matched numbers on the distinct parts of the Luger suggest that the Germans hadn't heard of the Ford factory miracle and were still constructing the Lugers The Old Fashioned Way with one person or small team building the whole Luger...
 
#12 ·
Any country that was so anal that they even numbered the charge holes (1 through 6) in their last military revolver probably couldn't bring themselves to giving up the numbering of parts....:p

Actually, while some parts were probably "drop-in", they weren't necessarily guaranteed to work with out a little fitting .
 
#14 · (Edited)
Congratulations! Many of the central points concerning the numbering and identification of lugers have been mentioned. The importance of the process of manufacturing has also been mentioned. However, there is quite a bit more information out there. If you're really interested, you might want to invest in some of the following books:
Standard Catalog of Luger, by Davis
Mauser Archive, by Jon Speed
Mauser Pistolen: Development and Production 1877-1946, by D. Weaver, et al.
Luger Holsters and Accessories of the 20th Century, by Bender
Luger: Pistol Parabellum, by G. Sturgess, et al.
This last book is the most helpful and informative, but it is also the most expensive. One of the many points it makes is that there is a cottage industry out there devoted to "fakery." There are at least two versions or editions of this book, because Sturgess was not satisfied with the publisher's handling of his original manuscript. The Sturgess collection was recently sold and those who attended the sale and/or purchased items had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see, handle and own some of the more rare examples. The second author of one of the editions, Joachim Görtz, devoted much of his life of the subject and is author or co-author of several other good books. Unfortunately, he recently died.
Perhaps the best living sources of information regarding lugers are the editors and contributors to Jan Still's "Luger Board."

One factor that is not discussed in any books is the role played by importers and wholesalers after both World War I and World War II. Look over almost any copy of "American Rifleman" from the early 1950s until 1968 and you will see ads for lugers that say "rebuilt," "reblued," or "matching" with prices raging from $12 to about $50.

As to some lugers being made during a "more relaxed" time, that is not the case. The standards for production were clearly spelled out in the contracts. Exactly how each manufacturer achieved those ends was somewhat different and accounts for the differences for example between DWM and Erfurt. In addition, there were some unusual examples produced after both World War I and World War II, but these were not officially produced lugers.

Finally, with regard to the comment about the Germany possibly winning the war had it not been so concerned with details, which "numbers" and "symbols" and which war is that?

Hope this helps.
 
#15 ·
With military issue Luger or P08 you need to know three things: the manufacturer (DWM, Erfurt to name a couple of early ones) the chamber date because they started over each year with 0001 and the letter suffix. Therefore you would say, 1917 Erfurt No 1594b. Almost all parts were numbered so they could be matched up after being rust blued which is a bit longer than hot salts bluing. Rust bluing was used up until about 1939 when Mauser went to hot salts blue.
 
#16 ·
I saw "straw" mentioned & couldn't find it again. I have replaced 'straw' in my Luger collection. I have one Luger. The parts were already bright polished so all I had to do was heat them till I got the straw color. Easy enuf but if you DIY be aware that the part needs to be polished and if you get it too hot & go beyond the straw color you will affect the temper of the steel, very important if it's a spring. If you haven't done it before make a polished piece of steel about the same size & shape & experiment. In heating, it is easy to quickly go beyond the temp you want.

Mine DWM 1920 marked PwB & holster dated 1940 ----

 
#18 ·
Hello Rhmc24:
Congratulations on your luger. Generally, but not always, "Pwb" is the designation for the "Polizeiwehr Bayern" meaning that your luger belonged to the Bavarian Police Defense Force.

Are you absolutely certain about that "Pwb" marking? Could it be "Ewb"? Sometimes the top of the 'E' and the middle arm of the 'E' came so close together that it can look like a 'P'. Generally "EwB" or sometimes "EWB" was carved or burnt into the grips of pistols and the butts of rifles. It was the initials of the Einwohnerwehr Bayern. This was a militia style local or "residents" defense force that was suppose to help the local police and law enforcement because the demobilization of the army. The EWB appeared on March 19, 1919, but the Treaty of Versailles made all para-military groups, including the EWB, illegal. So, the EWB was dissolved in April 1920 and eliminated by May or June 1921. Conseqently, there weren't a whole lot of EWB weapons around. It's not exactly the focus for many luger collectors, but it is unusual and therefore desirable, especially for those collecting the interwar period.

Best of luck!
 
#19 ·
My father was given what it looks like to be a 1939 DWM P08 German military Luger(markings 3601 and 01 on each piece of the gun, grips say franzite, not original I'm guessing, s, underneath by trigger is 3601 n, on bottom 3601 w, a fee of the eagle markings on side with 63,63, but I'm having a hard time finding what it really is,its value at all. I end up on a dead end each time. I'm clueless to all this but it's very interesting to me and I would love to be able to help my dad find out what it is he really has. I appreciate any help or info you could help me with I'm Goin to try to upload some pics if that would help.
 
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