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.357 Mag/.38 Special Powder Question

11K views 44 replies 9 participants last post by  gbyoung2 
#1 ·
Allow me to begin this by saying I am a complete noob when it comes to reloading. I'm just getting into this primarily as a hobby, and any of the stuff I'll eventually be reloading will be used just for plinking and not dead nuts accuracy.... altho' I enjoy knocking the center out of a target just as much as the next guy/gal.

My initial loads will be 30 Carbine using Berry's 110 gr. jacketed round nose bullets. Using reload data from Lee's Modern Reloading manual, Second Edition, it shows that IMR 4227 powder as one of the selections for 30 Carbine. A local gun store had that in stock (as well as the Small Rifle Primers – CCI #400) so that's what I bought. FWIW – H4227 is also shown for that weight bullet, and the specs. for both are exactly the same across the board. They are listed one directly above the other in the Manual chart, therefore, I think I'm set for the 30 Carbine using the IMR 4227. Given the exact specifics of the chart, I think H4227 could also be used.

And now for the question(s).....

The other rounds I'll be reloading are 158 gr. .38 Special and .357 Magnum for my Taurus 608SS4 revolver. The bullets I have are Berry's 158 gr. Preferred Plated (also round nose) and I am planning on using those for both the .38's and the .357's. I selected 158 gr. since those were the weights of the bullets in the original factory rounds that I have been shooting. The Manual shows Small Pistol Primers for these rounds so I picked up a box of CCI #500 types.

Powder, and load data:
None of the load data in the Lee's Manual I have list the IMR 4227 for use with a 158 gr. jacketed, or plated bullet. H4227, however, is listed for use with .38 Special lead bullets. I do find it interesting to note that the H4227 is listed for the Hornady 158 gr. XTP for both .357 Mag., and .38 Special loads.

Since I was fortunate enough to find a large 8 lb. jug of the IMR 4227 for use with the Carbine loads, I would like to try and find a way to also use it with the .38 and .357 stuff too. Given the difficulty in finding any and all powders to fit specific loads and bullets in today's political climate-induced shortages, I am sure someone out there has had to come up with safe load data to accommodate that powder and bullet type. I hope I'm not naive enough to think that's not the case.

Lots of words to try and come up with an answer, so what are ya'lls thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
 
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#2 ·
This is just one of the reasons I distrust Lee.

Hodgdon - the people that make both H powders and IMR powders, list H4227 for 30 carbine, for 38 Special, for 38 Special +P, and for 357.

But they do NOT list IMR 4227 for any of the four.

As a general rule, using loading data for powder X, but using it when loading powder Y, is a very good way to kill yourself.
 
#4 ·
Lee doesn't test any loads. They just publish a few loads for this, and that. If you want to use Hodgdon powders, then use the Hodgdon load data.
 
#5 ·
I was in the pistol section.

Looking in the rifle section I see that both powders are listed for both 30 carbine and 357. And yes, it is the exact same loads.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Appreciate all who have responded. No, I'm not trying to kill myself....... which is why I'm asking the questions; I want to learn..... which begs another question:

Given the present day status of both IMR and Hodgdon, can I safely assume that H4227 and IMR 4227 have the same characteristics and can be interchanged? I am basing this assumption on the same load data that Alpo and I both found.
 
#9 ·
Appreciate all who have responded. No, I'm not trying to kill myself....... which is why I'm asking the questions; I want to learn..... which begs another question:

Given the present day status of both IMR and Hodgdon, can I safely assume that H4227 and IMR 4227 have the same characteristics and can be interchanged? I am basing this assumption on the same load data that Alpa and I both found.
I just went through a similar situation with IMR 4895 and H4895 so I called Hodgdons. I won't answer your question and don't think anyone else should hazard a guess either because this is a safety issue, not just going with opinions, why not do yourself a favor and call Hodgdons reloading data center at 913-362-9455 and ask THEM the same question you asked above.

I get the impression that you are determined to use the same powder on all of your listed loads regardless just because you have it. I hope you call the number and listen to what they say.
 
#8 ·
I was just looking at the Hornady #8 manual . The data in the 158 grain bullet for .357 have different loads for IMR 4227 and H4227. I would think that indicated a different powder BUT then I look at the burn rate chart and they are right together on that???

In both the Lyman#49 and the Hornady #8 the .357 loads differences for IMR4227 for rifle and pistol data are so tiny as to basically being the same data. No data at all for the 158 grain .38 using H4227 in either manual.
 
#12 ·
HP38 and WW231 ARE the same. I've already checked with Hodgdons. So is H110 and WW296.

You hear the rumors all the time. "I saw this on so-and-so's website". Call the maker and ask. Don't take much time. They are very nice people. And truly, they would prefer you ask first, instead of blowing up your gun and then crying loudly that Hodgdon powder is crap.
 
#13 ·
HP38 and WW231 ARE the same. I've already checked with Hodgdons. So is H110 and WW296.

You hear the rumors all the time. "I saw this on so-and-so's website". Call the maker and ask. Don't take much time. They are very nice people. And truly, they would prefer you ask first, instead of blowing up your gun and then crying loudly that Hodgdon powder is crap.
I would be curious to know if they have compiled a list of their three brands that are the same. Sure would clear up a lot of confusion. That's one of the things I'll ask when I call.
 
#14 ·
Let us know what they tell you after you have talked to them. I'm pretty sure that they will tell you that the IMR4227 is good to go in all three calibers. I have used it in .357, and .44 magnum, and I have seen load data on .38's for this powder. I just never loaded any .38's with it. It's not the best/fastest/cheapest way to go, but in todays reloading world, you load what ever you can find that works!
 
#16 ·
I will. I just sent them the below note since I'd prefer to get information like this in hard copy for the record. If I don't get a timely response I will call.

"I recently (2 weeks ago) purchased an 8 lb. jug of IMR 4227 that indicated it was made in Australia. The intent was to specifically use this powder in reloading some 30 Carbine cases with 110 gr. JRN bullets. This recipe is listed on your reloading data pages, as well as the Lee Modern Reloading Manual, Second Edition that I have. H4227 is also listed for that application, with the specs. for both being identical across the board.

"I also have a slew of .38 Special and .357 Magnum cases I intend on loading with 158 gr. plated round nose bullets. Your reloading chart indicates that both IMR 4227 and H4227 can be used for the .357 application, again with the specs. being identical across the board.

"In the case of the .38 Special reloading chart (same 158 gr. bullets), only H4227 is listed, and NOT IMR 4227.

"Bottom line: Given the difficulty in finding specific pistol powders for specific loads, I would like to use the IMR 4227 in both the .38 Special and .357 Magnum applications since the specs. appear to be the same in a couple of applications as I indicated above.

"So, the basic question is: Is IMR 4227 and H4227 the same, and can their application be interchanged?

"I'd also be interested to know if you have developed a chart to show which of your three (3) powder brands have the same characteristics and can be considered the same."

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
 
#18 ·
I decided to call Hodgdon back (again) and got a real person on the line this time. He told me that the H4227 was actually discontinued about 5 years ago, and only the IMR4227 is being made available today. He also told me the two (2) powders were essentially the same, but threw in the requisite "Begin at the Starting Load recipe and work up."

Therefore, I'm calling my questions answered, problem solved, and I can go forward by using the IMR4227 for my Carbine, .357 Mag., and .38 Spcl. loads.

Appreciate ya'lls patience during this little exercise. I had to start somewhere and you guyz managed to draw the short straw. :)

Best, and happy (safe) shooting.

Guy
 
#19 ·


Pile of 30 Carbine cases (256 to be exact) cleaned, sized, and primed. Finally got comfortable with my powder measuring equipment (Frankford Armory Digital Scale and Lee Precision Powder Measurer) to where I was getting consistent drops, I charged and loaded about 12 rounds. I'll try them out at the range Monday, and if everything works according to Hoyle, we'll load up the rest.

First time I've ever fooled with any powder, but man, this 4227 is some "bouncy" stuff. Had to hold the powder scale pan right up to the neck of the Measurer discharge tube, else it was going everywhere. Once I sorted that technique out, everything was good.
 
#20 ·
Don't measure it into the powder pan. Measure it into a case. If you need to weigh the load, pour it from the case into the pan.

Much less mess that way.
 
#22 ·
I've just recently figured that out myself. Pouring into the pan lets a few particles of powder bounce out of the pan, onto my tabletop. Dropping powder into the case, then gently pouring the metered powder into the scale pan doesn't cause any bounce, and provides a far more accurate measurement.
 
#21 ·
Just curious - are you loading .30 Carbine for a carbine or a pistol? I've found IMR-4227 the best choice for the carbine loads when useing the 110 grain FMJ. I don't think you will regret buying that 8 pound jug.

I suspect you will end up useing powder other than that 4227 for your pistol loads. I use Unique, myself, for most pistol loads. I chose it because of it's versatility in so many calibers and uses for both jacketed and cast bullets.
 
#24 ·
Just curious - are you loading .30 Carbine for a carbine or a pistol? I've found IMR-4227 the best choice for the carbine loads when useing the 110 grain FMJ. I don't think you will regret buying that 8 pound jug.

I suspect you will end up useing powder other than that 4227 for your pistol loads. I use Unique, myself, for most pistol loads. I chose it because of it's versatility in so many calibers and uses for both jacketed and cast bullets.
Rifle. Have two (2) M1 Carbines - an Inland and a Eock-ola. And yes, I will also be using 110 grain FMJ bullets. I selected the same weight as the factory ammo I've been using.
 
#23 ·
That's why the spout of the powder measure is a "reverse funnel". So when you stick the case up there, it automatically centers it under the hole.
 
#25 ·
Hmmm? Didn't know that. As previously mentioned, I'm totally new to this and still learning. And because of that, I'm being really careful with my powder loads, which is why I was weighing each load before dumping it in my feed through die. Wanted to make sure the Powder Measurer was being consistent in its preset discharge.

Think what I might do until I'm really comfortable is put the expanded case on the scale, set tare, add the charge, then remeasure. That should give me the weight of the powder charge, eh?.
 
#26 ·
I don't know if I mis-understood what you are saying, but if you wiegh the powder AND the brass case/primer along with the powder charge, your charge wieght WILL be off. There are differences in the wieght of the cases, even within the same lot of manufacture.

To make it simple, and consistant and certainly faster, I'd advise to either buy or make a cartridge loading block. That way you can stand your primed cases in the block and charge them with your measured powder charge.

Don't know which powder measurer you use (I used to use an RCBS Uniflow Powder Measurer), but after you adjust it to throw a certain charge, and lock the settings in place, you CAN (but don't need to) wiegh each and every charge. I used to set up my measurer, check the first ten or so charges, then only check every 5th or 10th charge to make sure my measurer was still locked.

Last thing on the .30 Carbine: Case length is critical because this round headspaces on the case mouth. Also watch the crimp, as you don't want an excessive crimp on this one. The simplest/cheapest solution is to get a Lee case trimmer and check your cases AFTER you resize/deprime them. A decent caliper is also a good idea. Harbor Frieght sells some really inexpensive ones.
 
#27 ·
I don't know if I mis-understood what you are saying, but if you wiegh the powder AND the brass case/primer along with the powder charge, your charge wieght WILL be off. There are differences in the wieght of the cases, even within the same lot of manufacture.

To make it simple, and consistant and certainly faster, I'd advise to either buy or make a cartridge loading block. That way you can stand your primed cases in the block and charge them with your measured powder charge.

Don't know which powder measurer you use (I used to use an RCBS Uniflow Powder Measurer), but after you adjust it to throw a certain charge, and lock the settings in place, you CAN (but don't need to) wiegh each and every charge. I used to set up my measurer, check the first ten or so charges, then only check every 5th or 10th charge to make sure my measurer was still locked.

Last thing on the .30 Carbine: Case length is critical because this round headspaces on the case mouth. Also watch the crimp, as you don't want an excessive crimp on this one. The simplest/cheapest solution is to get a Lee case trimmer and check your cases AFTER you resize/deprime them. A decent caliper is also a good idea. Harbor Frieght sells some really inexpensive ones.
All the cases were checked (with an accurate Mitutoyo caliper), and trimmed to spec. if necessary, with a Lyman Accutrimmer after they were de-capped and re-sized.

I am using a Lee Precision Powder Measurer, and yes, I am aware of differing case weights. My intent until I get fully comfortable with my equipment is to set each case on the scale and zero it out with the tare setting. Drop the charge in the case and re-weigh. The charged case weight should now tell me the weight of the powder in the case. I'll go through this same exercise for each case I am doing. Extra steps I know, but will only be doing it until I am completely comfortable with the equipment I have, and myself.
 
#28 ·
That will work, but - why? Zero your scale. Throw a charge in a case. Pour it in the pan. Weigh it. Pour it back in the case. Put a bullet on top.

To get around pouring the powder out of the case and then back into the case, you are having to reset your scale EVERY TIME.

Seems like more work, to me.
 
#29 ·
Zeroing the scale is a touch of a button. Powder only needs to be put in the case one time if the measured load is correct. If not, dump it back into the hopper, make any necessary adjustments, zero scale with empty case, dump powder and remeasure. If correct, seat bullet and move on to the next case.
 
#30 ·
This reminds me of a story my Economics professor told us, one time.

As a little boy, one of his chores was to bring up coal from the basement. His mother saw him getting it, one day, and yelled at him. He was picking up a piece in his right hand, passing it to his left hand, and putting it in the bucket.

She said that he should just pick it up with one hand, then turn slightly to put it in the bucket. He was getting BOTH hands dirty, and only needed to get ONE

He told us that he did not understand her complaint, as when he washed the right hand, he had to wash the left hand also.

I never did figure out what point he was TRYING to make with that story, but this is what I took away from it.

Sometimes others do things that appear to make no sense to you. But as long as it works for them. :)
 
#31 ·
I'd listen to Alpo, if I were you. I've read many postings by many of the folks who have responded here - and there are a number of REALLY great reloaders who have answered here - and Alpo is one of the most reliable sources on the Forum as far as reloading information goes.

I stand by my advice NOT to add your case to the scale when you charge your case. Take 2 cases that are timmed exactly to the same specs, and the odds are that the wieght will be different for both. Take 50 or 100 cases and do the same thing and I can guarantee that you will have cases that wiegh in differently, even though they are the same length. When you adjust the powder charge to adjust for the wieght difference, you are completely throwing away shot to shot consistancy in chamber pressure, and accuracy will suffer.

Not only are you adding an un-necessary step, you are actually making your charges for your loads less accurate.

Bench Rest shooters DO wiegh and segregate their cases individually to assure consistancy - and they load some of the most accurate ammo ever made - but they also wiegh and segregate their bullets individually, and certainly they wiegh the powder charges individually.

Do as you please. It doesn't sound like you are adding or doing anything dangerous - just a counter productive extra step.
 
#32 ·
my view of this is the more steps you do.. IE.. zeroing the scale every load. the more chance you have to introduce innaccuracy.. what if you miss that step, and the last case was much heavier than the next and you get an overcharge?
 
#33 ·
I hear what you are all saying, but I still wanted to test my pending process. And just to be clear, I AM NOT adjusting the powder charge based on the weight of an empty case. I've got a hellava lot better sense than that. The intent is to get the same exact charge weight in a case, regardless of its weight.

What I did today was to find three cases whose weights varied by as much as three grains. I then set up my Measurer to where I was getting consistent powder drops into the pan by weighing them on my scale. Once satisfied with that, I then put a case on the scale and zeroed it out by setting it to tare weight. I then dropped a load in that case feeding it directly under the Measurer drop tube (that worked well; thanks for the tip). I then put that same case on the scale and the weight difference was exactly what my original powder drop weight was in the pan.

I picked another case, put it on the scale and set it to zero using the tare weight setting. I then dropped load in that case and put it on the scale. Again, the weight difference was exactly what my original drop weight was in the pan.

I repeated this for the third case and came up with the exact same results.

As a final check, I put the pan on the scale and zeroed it out using the tare weight setting. In turn, I then dumped the load from each round in the pan and weighed each. The results showed each powder charge was exactly the same as the charge weight I originally set up at the beginning of this exercise.

It appears ya'll think I am nuts by going through this process, and creating more steps for myself. Actually, I'm not. Instead of weighing the charge in a pan, I am simply weighing the charge in a case whose weight has been set to zero. Once I am fully comfortable that my Measurer is giving me consistent drops, I'll eliminate doing all of this for each case and will only check the 5th. Or 6th. one (as someone suggested) as I run through the batch of cases I am reloading for a session.
 
#34 ·
The type of powder and the powder measurer itself are two key factors in just how consistant your charges will be. Another thing to consider is consistancy in how you operate the measurer, the powder level in the hopper, and using the same force and movements each and every time.

I found - when useing my old Uniflow powder measurer and an Ohaus 10-10 scale with my standard Unique powder for pistol loads - that I could keep my charges pretty much within a tenth of a grain or two if I was consistant. For me at the time that was good for practice handgun ammo. Flake powder like Unique isn't as consistant thru a powder measurer as a small ball type powder (BLC (2), H-335, etc). IMR-4227 always seemed to meter fairly well.

After reading all of these posts and the advice presented, and your replys, you are going to do it your way. Nothing wrong with that. Good luck with your loads.
 
#35 ·
After proper case prep (re-sizing, trimming if necessary, priming, etc.), charging the round with the proper weight of correct powder specified for your round weight, and overall round length..... what else can you do? Initially, I'm simply weighing the powder charge a little differently to get the correct load.

We'll find out Monday if the weather cooperates. I've done 13 or so rounds and will be trying them out in one of my Carbines. If those work out okay, we'll finish the rest and move on to all the .38 Special and .357 Mag brass I need to go through. I've got a ton of it so will need to get into a Zen mode and just do the deed.
 
#37 ·
Just curious - are you loading .30 Carbine for a carbine or a pistol? I've found IMR-4227 the best choice for the carbine loads when useing the 110 grain FMJ. I don't think you will regret buying that 8 pound jug.

I suspect you will end up useing powder other than that 4227 for your pistol loads. I use Unique, myself, for most pistol loads. I chose it because of it's versatility in so many calibers and uses for both jacketed and cast bullets.
"for a carbine or a pistol?"

I wasn't aware a 30 Carbine pistol was out there, so had to look it up.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight; learn something new every day. :)
 
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