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Need help identifying Greman Schuetzen rifle

2K views 16 replies 4 participants last post by  sharps4590 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have a German Schuetzen rifle, too. It says "Victor Trülzsch in Nürnberg" on the barrel. It's basically covered with hand carving and engraving.

My uncle brought it back from occupied Germany at the end of WWII. His unit was disarming German homes, and they put confiscated rifles in the street- muzzles on the curb, and stocks on the street. Then they ran over them with a tank. I guess that's war- effective, but imagine the antiques that were lost… My uncle saw this particular rifle about to be crushed, and saved it and took it back to the States.

Anyway, I decided it was time to put it on the market- sad but true.

Better pix on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/gp/kimhill/5YEpS2

I set a reserve price of $3,000 for it, and I'm not sure if that's the appropriate amount. Does anyone here have any perspective on this? I only have two days left to change this…

Thanks!

Kim



 
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#3 ·
Does the gun have sights? Your pictures do not show enough of the gun to estimate if it is complete or missing parts. If 100 percent complete and it as nice as the pictures you have shown then 3000 is a reasonable number. These guns are not easy to sell as the interest in them is not widespread. They are a specialty item.
 
#4 ·
It is essentially a Marini action but proof marks are needed and should be evident on the barrel near the breech and perhaps beneath the forearm. The cartridge it is chambered to would also be helpful as some are more desirable than others. I looked at the pictures in your link and I don't believe you are off base with your price. You see them from less than $2000.00, but rarely, and more often closer to 4K-6K.....which would explain why I don't own one as much as I would love to add one to my German collection. Mike is correct in that they often do not sell quickly...but you never know who may be looking for what.
 
#8 ·
…I looked at the pictures in your link and I don't believe you are off base with your price. You see them from less than $2000.00, but rarely, and more often closer to 4K-6K.....
Thanks, sharps4590! Actually I spoke with Heritage Auctions' San Francisco office, and a guy there told me that they had sold a similar German rifle a year or so ago for $4800. But he also said that 4800 was a very good price - not typical.

Unfortunately, the rifle has been out of state at a relative's home, and there were some real logistical challenges in managing cross country transport to CA via Fedex (their preferred firm) - expensive, time-intensive, and potentially a damage risk. So I stuck with the local auction house in Massachusetts.

What I was most interested in was to make sure that a $3000 reserve was not an obviously bad choice, and I'm grateful for the feedback on that. The Massachusetts auction guy said that he had already received four inquiries about the rifle, which I take as a good sign. His rifle listing is here: http://www.oldetymestuffe.com/aboutus604.html (I saw that this link was missing, but I received no notification of a problem, and a review of the forum rules hadn't turned up anything - perhaps it was an error? In any case, I have a real interest in firearms and am not here just to sell - also I assume that availability of a rifle like this is of interest to some forum members, if a post is sincere & serious, which is certainly the case here.)

Also, sharps4590 - It's interesting that your "between 4K and 5K" is so close to what Heritage said. It's clear that at least under some circumstances, that price is ok. I wish I had more time and access for this. Among other things, I'm based in NYC, which is extremely hostile in terms of gun laws. Even though it's an antique, I would be concerned about running afoul of something/someone if I brought it here. Sad, but true…
 
#5 ·
Kim, I looked at your rifle again because I couldn't get it off my mind all morning. Admittedly I am something of a German firearm crank. I think the rifle is worth more than the 3 grand you set as a reserve. Were it mine I would be between 4K and 5K I believe. It is a fine piece. A lot of that depends on how quickly you want or need to sell it. As I said in my earlier post you never know who is looking for what and sometimes you can price things too low and not get any interest. If you're comfortable at 3K then leave it there but don't be bashful about raising the price. Of course, as it's already listed at 3K if you raise it you will turn off anyone who might be looking. Sure wish I had 3K lying around I didn't need.
 
#6 ·
Hey guys- thanks for the feedback! I didn't see it until tonight, because my post got moved into a new thread — I guess the move was why I didn't get any email notification of your replies. I figured that no one was interested…
 
#10 ·
Mike, if you haven't you really need to take a look at the pictures in Kim's link. It has the typical, wonderful German diopter sight. That and his few pictures in the thread don't do the rifle justice regards condition and completeness.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I always thought the gun was pretty extraordinary, but I didn't have the experience/knowledge to compare to other rifles in its class. What amazed me was that almost all the exposed metal had some kind of engraving - even pieces that aren't visible unless you look. Hell, the screws are engraved! I wonder how long it took to do all that handiwork. Another interesting question- if you wanted to recreate a gun like this today, how long would it take & what would it cost? If anyone's doing it, they might be in line for a show on the Discovery Channel… ;)

I really wonder who this "Victor Trülzsch in Nürnberg" was- whether it was just him, or a whole workshop. Google is not really of help here…
 
#14 ·
As you've signed up here at the firearmsforum, try here for info on your rifle.

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/forum.php

I belong to the GGCA but there is no cost for the web site. If anyone can tell you about Victor Trulzsch someone there can. There is several members in Germany so obviously they have access to extant records those of us in the US don't. That and simply by being there they have knowledge of the trade we don't. Oddly, Victor is my first name....but I can't do that work!!!!!!

If you aren't aware it is entirely possible that Trulzsch was simply the retailer. Many shops built firearms and/or parts of firearms for the trade and were never identified as to the maker. Who made the barrel(s) can often be ascertained but on older firearms the rest may be a SWAG. The British gun trade of the time was similar.

Yours is a fine rifle but for a Scheutzen it is nothing really extraordinary. What I find so appealing about yours is the overall condition. It is very nice. I have a few drillings, combination guns and stalking rifles and the work put into them for fairly common firearms pales all but the most highly embellished, and expensive, of American firearms of the time. However, we must remember that hunting and shooting in central Europe was not a pass time the common man participated in. Those well heeled enough to be able to afford to hunt could also afford fine firearms.

I understand that Scheutzen matches are making something of a comeback across Germany/Austria/Switzerland and there are those making Scheutzen rifles again....and the wait is long and cost high.
 
#15 ·
sharps4590, thanks for the tip on the GGCA- I submitted a membership request. And thanks for the historical info too. Apparently this Trülzsch guy also made shotguns, but there's very little I can find online. The GGCA forum doesn't come up with any search hits for Trülzsch. Curious- what's a "SWAG"?

I did find this:

http://www.montywhitley.com/category_details_print.php?i=49&id=1940

It's obviously the same guy- very similar construction & decoration. I left voicemail for the Monty Whitley people, but didn't hear back.

>> "I understand that Scheutzen matches are making something of a comeback across Germany/Austria/Switzerland and there are those making Scheutzen rifles again....and the wait is long and cost high."

I'm guessing that it would be prohibitively expensive/difficult to produce a gun like this today. How many craftsmen are even left for that sort of thing?
 
#16 · (Edited)
"SWAG"....acronym for "sophisticated, wild a$$ed guess". You never heard of "the SWAG method"...lol.

Germany is still full of craftsmen capable of such work as is much of Europe and Great Britain.....and the US isn't lacking in individuals capable of doing the same. There are many who are capable....just not many willing to pay for the work for a rifle with basically one, exclusive use.

I shot matches in various disciplines for just about 30 years. Being about 70% German myself, if there was a renaissance of Scheutzen matches somewhere within 100 miles of me I'd sell a couple of my rifles to buy one Scheutzen match rifle....but as yet I am ignorant of any matches being held. Take a moment and look up the Scheutzen matches. Often the targets were as exquisite as the rifles.

I saw your thread on the GGCA site. Give them a little time and you should get some good answers. Not having the firearm in your possession and being able to take good pictures of the proof marks and any other identifying marks will make it difficult to have definitive answers unless one of the guys recognizes the name and characteristics of the rifle.

Sent you a PM
 
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