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How close do folllow loading tables.... to the letter?

1K views 22 replies 11 participants last post by  drymag 
#1 ·
I've spent some quality feet up reading time with my newest reloading manuals today and am catching some interesting points, actually, they're probably similar to what I read in the Hornady manual a while back but I know a little more about what the heck they are talking about now. One thing I found interesting is that the Lyman manual strongly recommends to follow the load date exactly in every aspect, an example being primers. When they say for a particular load use a Remington 2 1/2 primer, they don't mean substitute with CCI 300 primer.

I would think the name brand primers are built to certain standards and that a CCI 300 would be just as good as a Winchester WLP or are they? Do any of you go to those lengths or do any of you use certain brands because of reliability or other factors regardless of what the tables say? So far I buy the ones that are the lowest price.
 
#3 ·
I use LP primers where called for, and I use SP primers where called for. I don't care who makes them, and am usually looking for what ever is available, and cheapest. I mix, and match.
 
#4 ·
I select primers based on size and application; couldn't care less about what the reloading book says. I think there are marginal applications, or perhaps competition-quality loads that justify sticking to the recommendations, but I don't load any of those.

If you read several different manuals you'll find that they can't agree on anything, and the differences can be ridiculously huge. Digging deeper, you'll find that the different authors used bullets of the same general weight and profile, but changed the seating depth, or used different barrel lengths to develop their min/max data. These are variables that can have profound effects on performance, including safety. What I'm finding is that, if my gun barrel, bullet choice and powder selection are identical to those published in a manual, I have high confidence in the numbers published in that manual for that particular combination of elements. That confidence does not extend to anything else I shoot, however; another manual might have a closer match to one of my other guns.

If I'm venturing into unknown ground, where no manual contains data that exactly matches my situation, I'm learning to apply engineering judgement based on the patterns I see in the differing loading information. For instance, a boat-tail bullet has less bearing surface area against the rifling than a flat-bottomed bullet of the same weight and profile. That results in lower frictional force against the gas from the burning powder while it's accelerating up the barrel, and I can use a faster burning powder without developing dangerous pressures than I would dare to use with a flat-based bullet. Similarly, if the data I have is for a 22" barrel, but my gun has a 26" barrel, I can use a little bigger charge to squeeze out a few more fps without wasting powder by burning past the end of the barrel.

I think you can spend a lifetime developing this sort of judgement based upon study, and adjusted by observation, and I plan to spend the rest of my life doing just that. I have much yet to learn, but I'm looking forward to the journey. In the meantime, I stick to middle of the road charges that several books call 'safe' and take good notes. And I never worry about which primer I poke in the cup if it fits.
 
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#5 ·
I agree rawright. I believe they use the longest barrel that they can get, makes the numbers for their powders/bullets look better than they really are. They also leave a large margin for safety on there min/max loads. Don't dare risk a lawsuit. They say "never go above our max loads", knowing full well that some powder is so slow that it can't all burn in a short barreled hand gun. Like IMR 4227 in a .44 mag case. You simply can not put too much powder in that case for a hand gun.
 
#6 ·
I was working up a .223 load using Varget and the Hodgdon web site said the max load for a 40gr projectile was 28gr but there is no way you can get 28gr of varget in a .223 case. The absolute max I could put in without spilling was 27.8gr and the case was brim full. I guess if I had packed it down I could get another .2gr inside but I'm not interested in packing down the powder for each case.

I came across a minimum pistol load (can't remember if it was 9mm or .40 smith) using power pistol powder that was so light it would not cycle the slide.
 
#9 ·
I was working up a .223 load using Varget and the Hodgdon web site said the max load for a 40gr projectile was 28gr but there is no way you can get 28gr of varget in a .223 case. The absolute max I could put in without spilling was 27.8gr and the case was brim full. I guess if I had packed it down I could get another .2gr inside but I'm not interested in packing down the powder for each case.

.
compressed load imho...
 
#7 · (Edited)
when working up a load I consult all my available manuals and pick a minimum start load the bulk of them agree on, then work up, not passing the lowest listed max, while looking for pressure signs, if I switch primers, I start low again, however I don't mind using any spp in a spot that wants a spp, I just start low when swapping out a new component other than brass ( edit: LDB brings up a good point about mil-brass) other than normal brass i would say.. if swapping in milspec brass, then start low again as with swapping any new component ). If using a projectile weight not exactly listed in the manual, I load down to reduce pressure, using closest data usually, is using 165gr data on a 167 gr projectile. Many time I pull down cheap milsurp for components and you see Ann odd weight projectile now and the... Or more often :)
 
#8 ·
So who here wants to guarantee that deviating from load data in reloading manuals is absolutely safe? Who has enough insurance and a good enough lawyer? Remember, hurt people sue.

Reloading is about safety. The only way a publisher of reloading manuals can assure absolute safety is by testing each and every load for pressure and results. When you deviate from that data you are at risk.

There are ways to stay safe and still not use the exact recipe. You can use different brass but be aware that military brass is thicker and with the listed load you will get more pressure. If you use different primers you may get more pressure. If your load is at the starting load levee and not at MAXIMUM then you probably will still be safe. So anytime you use different components than listed move down to the starting load and work the load up observing the spent cases for excessive pressure indications. But NEVER exceed the MAXIMUM load.

For primers I have only used Winchester Primers as those are the ones I get the best deal on. They are more energetic than other manufacturers primers so I keep that in mind since they add energy to the charge. I use anyone's commercial brass but in some calibers I use military once fired brass. But I start at the starting load and work up which usually gives me equivalent developed loads a grain or two lower than when in commercial brass.

If you are new to reloading and regard life and gun as sacred then follow the listed loads EXACTLY. When you deviate from the listed components you may generate problems that will make your reloading experience frustrating and/or unsafe. At some point over time and experience you will understand the process enough to know how far you can deviate from those component choices. At starting load levels changes in brass and primers will make little difference but load levels changes above and below the listed range may make massive differences and be unsafe. Bullet choices also effect the pressures generated and for that reason use the load data developed by the bullet manufacturers or where that exact bullet is listed in recipes in manuals. Remember that powder loads must be reduced for heavier bullets but the published reloading data takes that into account. NEVER use data from the internet or buddies. Stick to published load data in recognized reloading manuals or from web pages of component manufactures.

BE SAFE!

LDBennett
 
#11 ·
You can use different brass but be aware that military brass is thicker and with the listed load you will get more pressure.

BE SAFE!

LDBennett
Good point.

I always start low when swapping new components. I will use any primers i have on hand.. but if i change primers i'll start a new batch and start low again.

My comment above on brass was vauge, so i edited it. I will swap in/out normal brass without starting low.. but if i swap in mil-brass, i'll start low again.

good catch.. I edited my post above.
 
#10 ·
I just read a small piece about primers and pressures. The cartridge in the test was the .45 Colt, the primers used were standard Remington LP, Federal LP, Winchester LP, and CCI LP magnum. The same cases, bullets and powder charge were used for the test. By using the magnum primer, the pressure level went up by 13,000 psi over the standard primers.
 
#12 ·
Lot-to-lot production of powder or primers will have enough built in variables that I don't want to toss in any more than I have to. I agree with Carver in that I don't usually stick with the exact same components listed in the manual, but my loads have been worked up with the components I always use.

I also agree with LD in that, especially for a new reloader, the safest thing to do is to use the exact components listed in the reloading manual, and to work-up loads based on safety, function and accuracy.

The only 'experimenting' I really ever done was with my 7.65 French Long. No published reloading data is available for this cartridge, so I had to start from scratch. I used starting load data from the .32 ACP (a slightly less powerful round), and a chronograph, micrometer and calipers. I developed my loads by carefully watching both the velocities and primer/brass for the slightest indications of excessive pressures. My loads are very close to the original specifications, but about 25 FPS slower than the original loads. I would not recommend that an inexperianced reloader try anything like this.
 
#13 ·
I buy the Winchester and reload both magnum, and standard LP primers.
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#14 ·
I deviate a bit, not intentionally (well sort of). I use a beam scale and if I am reading about a tenth high and my scale is off a tenth low, that puts me 2 tenths off. I'm not worried about it as I load start to middle as that so far with my components gives me the best groups. Fortunately my powder measures do really well if I do a good set up using graphite, etc. Lymans 49th says you can be off +/- .005" in seating. I can go along hitting the oal then out of the blue I'll get one off .002 - .004 then they are back at on the money. Normally when that happens, it's on the long side. Rarely a .004 though. I check all my oals. On the Lee Turret I can adjust as I go if needed, but on the LNL, that is too much hassle so I just accept the .002 - .004 on occasion if long. I'll let it go if .002 short but shorter than that, I fix (on 9mm and 40sw). So those I may be off a tad but the book said ok. Until I learn more about pressures in 9mm and 40sw, I want to avoid that short .004 or .oo5 stuff.
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The above is using powder (ie some thing like a ball or flake) that my hoppers like. I can't use that extruded log jamming powder in my Lee plastic stand alone hopper. That one is like a kid hitting a rock on a skateboard. I don't use it in any of my powder measures. I load by hand for the extruded since it's for rifle anyway in my case and I don't load that many and I like doing that anyway.
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Basically I stay in the book. I have went outside the book when using 303 Brit 150gr and 180gr bullets for my 7.62x54r, but the books I have lists similar gr bullets and their ranges for 7.62x54r , so in that since I stayed in the book recommendations. That's the only straying I have done.
 
#16 ·
I've always wondered about those Winchester WLP primers and don't really understand how they can be both standard and magnum. The only conclusion I can come to is they are slightly hotter than standard, but less hot than magnums. Meaning they are a compromise between the two, but not really what you want for either.
 
#17 ·
To me a small primer is a small primer, no matter who makes it. Whether you use Tulammo or CCI primers, you always start at the minimum load and work up anyway, so what difference does it make who manufactured it.

I have used standard primers in every thing I have ever loaded. The last Small Rifle primers I bought were Magnum so whenever I run out of the standard ones I will use the magnum ones (I have 10,000 of them). The only thing I really use small rifle primers in are .223 rounds. The only other thing that I load that could use them in is 5.7X28, which can be loaded with either SR or SP primers.
 
#19 ·
i use winchester if i can find them, as my main, go-to primer, always.

I also have used:

wolf
tula
S&B
CCI
Federal

i have YET to ever have a new primer i loaded into a case not go bang.

I have on a few ocasions found commercially loaded ammo with problems though.

I have found a 380 with a crushed primer seated SIDEWAYS

I have found a 30-06 with the lip of the case mouth folded over and bulged exposing the base of the projectile.

I have found a 45acp that failed to pop, tried it about 6 times till the primer had nothing left to hit with the fire pin.

those were all new manufacturer commercial ammo..

I've never used rem primers, but do have a couple trays full in specific #'s for a couple pet loads to work up, and people tell me they work best with those rem primers.. so I got them. maybee sometime this decade I might actually get to them. :)
 
#20 ·
After reading all the replies I got to wondering........ Has anyone ever experimented to see the difference primers make by loading a dozen rounds of identical brass, same bullet, same minimum recommended powder charge, same seating but load six with CCI 300 primers and six with Winchester WLP primers then shoot through a chronograph to see if there is any appreciable difference? Or is the difference just pressure?
 
#21 ·
Primers from various manufacturers have different degree of energies. All meet the minimum required but the Winchester primers for some sizes and types are so energetic that they can serve both regular cartridges and magnum. It says so right on the packaging for those that can.

Why the different primers? First there is the small and large primer in both pistol and rifle. Those differences are base on the dimension of the cups that makeup the primer body. Rifles typically have firing pins that generate more of a hit on the primer (greater mass) and the cup thicknesses tend to be thicker for rifle primers. Then there are standard, magnum, and Benchrest. Between the first two the difference is the ability of the primer to ignite the powder to get it started burning. Some slow burning powders as used in magnum cartridges are difficult to start reliably burning so the magnum primers are more energetic than standard ones. For that reason some reloader who shoot in extremely cold climates, where ignition of the powder is hard, go with magnum primers for non-magnum cartridges.

In tests as documented several years ago in a popular gun magazine, the Winchester primers were in general more energetic. Hence, Winchester gets away with some sizes having one primer for both standard and magnum.

Primers are made in quantity but basically by hand. Some workers are better than others in making them consistent. Only those special workers make the Benchrest primers.

You must take into account that the primers add energy to the burning of the powder. If you change from standard to magnum then you had better back down the powder charge level if you are anywhere close to maximum but it probably is wise to move all the way to the starting load and work you way up watching for signs of excessive pressures.

There are tons of variable in reloading cartridges. If you are just starting out and you want to make good ammo right out of the gate and avoid frustration from mistakes in the varying the components then do the reloading manual recipes EXACTLY as listed using all the components the manual prescribes.

LDBennett
 
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