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Loading for a tight chamber 38 special - S&W Model 36 (1976)

5K views 36 replies 7 participants last post by  RAJBCPA 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been reloading since '76 but I'm new with this caliber and this is my first batch of reloads for this older revolver. Withing the last two weeks, I have acquired 3 revolvers:

1. S&W Model 66 - 357 mag (1972)
2. S&W Model 686 - 357 mag (2014 - new)
3. S&W Model 36 - 38 Special (1976)

I received 1,000 once fired nickel plated mixed head stamp cases this a.m. I'm loading with lead cast 125 grain projectiles.

I set up the press in the typical fashion. This is a Dillon 550b with the a carbide Lee 4 die set. I ran a dozen rounds through the Dillon and tested them for fitment in the guns. The ammo went "plunk" in the Model 66 and the Model 686, however none of the completed cases fit the Model 36.

The completed cases had to be pushed hard into the chambers and the cylinder in the Model 36 and would not close into the frame. It was hard to remove the ammo from the cylinder with the extractor.

I re-adjusted the carbide Lee sizing die and left it completely down and tight against the raised shell plate. Then, I ran 6 new rounds through the press. Three of these completed cases fit the Model 36 and 3 did not. All of these newer rounds went "plunk" in the Model 686 and Model 66 revolvers.

The fitment issue is tight in the Model 36 revolver only at the base of the case. In the base, it seems the "fat" reloaded ammo that refuses to chamber in the Model 36 is about .002 bigger than factory commercial ammo.

Factory 38 Special commercial ammo fits OK in all three revolvers.

A. Is it possible that this is caused by the Lee factory crimp die (die #4) pushing down too much on the base of the case? This does not sound right to me since the brass case is thickest near its base?

B. Is it possible that the once fired cases were subjected to too much pressure which caused their bases to bulge?

C. Is this caused by dirty chambers in the Model 36? I did clean the gun with patches and solvent first. All guns are S&W revolvers that accept 38 Special ammo.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Even with a sliver of light per the instruction for Lee sizer die, that should be fine. May be you need to have the crimp adjusted a bit differently. Measure them. My sw 442 38spcl reloads diameter reads .3735-ish. Also, make sure you don't have a batch of bad bullets you got somewhere that are over sized so measure them as well. Curious what the final resolve will be so let us know.
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On the Lee FCD, I set center adjustment screw at a half a turn and a tad more when using a cannalured bullet (look for proper roll). Never go past 1 full turn. You will need to measure yours so you can find where yours ends up. If your brass is all noticeably different lengths, that setting on the FCD will not be sweet for each round if using a taper crimp and hitting that cannalure on cannalured bullets will be a task and a half. Don't go overboard on trimming. Pistol brass tends to shorten while rifle bottle necks tend to lengthen. Crimp just enough to do the job so the brass lasts longer. All my range brass is close enough so don't trim as a norm.
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I screw my FCD down to where it presses against the shell holder with flex anticipated. With the adjustment screw way out, then place the cartridge in the holder and adjust the screw down until it touches. Lower the ram, using the scribed line on the top of it (exacto etch from center to edge), I set it to the half turn position. I measure the first one out to verify it is good if it is a tapered variety and just look if it is the cannalured variety.
 
#3 ·
I've been reloading since '76 but I'm new with this caliber and this is my first batch of reloads for this older revolver. Withing the last two weeks, I have acquired 3 revolvers:

1. S&W Model 66 - 357 mag (1972)
2. S&W Model 686 - 357 mag (2014 - new)
3. S&W Model 36 - 38 Special (1976)

I received 1,000 once fired nickel plated mixed head stamp cases this a.m. I'm loading with lead cast 125 grain projectiles.

I set up the press in the typical fashion. This is a Dillon 550b with the a carbide Lee 4 die set. I ran a dozen rounds through the Dillon and tested them for fitment in the guns. The ammo went "plunk" in the Model 66 and the Model 686, however none of the completed cases fit the Model 36.

The completed cases had to be pushed hard into the chambers and the cylinder in the Model 36 and would not close into the frame. It was hard to remove the ammo from the cylinder with the extractor.

I re-adjusted the carbide Lee sizing die and left it completely down and tight against the raised shell plate. Then, I ran 6 new rounds through the press. Three of these completed cases fit the Model 36 and 3 did not. All of these newer rounds went "plunk" in the Model 686 and Model 66 revolvers.

The fitment issue is tight in the Model 36 revolver only at the bass of the case. In the base, it seems the "fat" reloaded ammo that refuses to chamber in the Model 66 is about .002 bigger than factory commercial ammo.

Factory 38 Special commercial ammo fits OK in all three revolvers.

A. Is it possible that this is caused by the Lee factory crimp die (die #4) pushing down too much on the base of the case? This does not sound right to me since the brass case is thickest near its base?

B. Is it possible that the once fired cases were subjected to too much pressure which caused their bases to bulge?

C. Is this caused by dirty chambers in the Model 36? I did clean the gun with patches and solvent first. All guns are S&W revolvers that accept 38 Special ammo.
Resize a case, then see if it fits in your 36. I'll bet it does! If it does then you are out of adjustment on your seating, and crimping die.
 
#4 ·
One tool every handloader should have is micrometers. When a problem arises, measure! Measure the offending round to see where the round is too big. Measure the round after each operation to find out when it becomes too big.
 
#5 ·
I bought a used Model 19. It had been reblued. Because of the new finish (I guess) the chambers were too tight. I took a piece of 30 Carbine brass, slit it so I could wrap some 1200-grit wet-or-dry around it. Chucked it in a drill motor, put some oil on the sandpaper and polished the chambers.

Problem went away.

And I agree with Carver - try to seat an empty piece of resized brass, and see if that works, if five will go in, if the cylinder will close and rotate.
 
#6 ·
...seems like a lead cast bullet issue - too big for only this revolver.

125 grain lead cast bullets measure = .359 inches
158 grain copper plated bullets measure = .357 inches

1. I re-sized only several once fired empty cases and after sizing they all fit in the M36 chambers (Lee Sizing die OK)

2. I filled a few sized empty cases with powder and flaired the case in Die #2. Then I put in the .357 copper plated bullets in the flaired case and ran them through the bullet seating die and the Lee factory crimp die..... All completed ammo chambered in the M36. Plunk! Copper plated bullets - OK.

3. I measured a completed case that refused to chamber with the lead cast 359 lead cast bullet in the M36. The completed case measures .377 at the crimp.

Question: Are these lead cast bullets that measure .359 useless for the Model 36 revolver but OK for the Model 66 and Model 686 revolvers? I assume this answer here is - YUP!

Thanks all!
 
#7 ·
Absolutely. You have tight chambers on the 36, apparently.
 
#8 ·
You could buy a resizing die?
 
#9 ·
RAJBCPA:

All modern cartridges have specification as to the size and the tolerance. The manuals list the maximum allowed. The max dimension at the crimp is 0.379 inches and that same dimension is applicable to the case just above the rim. Hornady makes both lead bullets ( I think they are swaged) and jacketed bullet. The lead bullets are listed at 0.358 inches whereas the jacketed bullet are listed at 0.357 inches. I think the idea is the soft lead of the lead bullet will form itself to the chamber and bore whereas a jacketed bullet is much harder and must be closer to the bore size or the pressure will sky-rocket.

The fact that you were able to make cartridges that fit the gun with tight chambers tells me the once fired brass you used must of come from a gun with generous chambers and/or loaded hot and expanded much more than normal. It also points out that the LEE sizer (and others, too) did not reach all the way to the rim in sizing. It also says the LEE FCD (the fourth die in a LEE set) is not good at resizing down to the rim. The FCD for pistols has a sizing ring in its mouth that is suppose to assure even blown out cases will fit any gun.

If this was once fired (by others) brass it points out the folly of using used brass of unknown origin.

This also might point out that S&W may have made tighter guns back in the 1970's, at least some of them (??).

What would I suggest? Throw away the errant cases and buy 500 new 38 Spl cases and start anew. But buy new Winchester or Remington or Starline cases.

LDBennett
 
#10 · (Edited)
LDB:

Thanks. Initially, I thought the base of the unknown once-fired cases were too big in the tight chambered Model 36. Now I'm thinking it is the larger .359 sized lead cast bullets that are causing this.


I need to go back and measure everything again a few times and compare these measures against the Speer book to solve the puzzle, I suppose.

Questions:
B1. Is it possible that the chambers in the Model 36 are smaller at the forcing cone end?

B2. The directions for the Lee FCD say to screw the die down to the shell plate and back it OUT 3 turns. If the lead cast bullet is on the large size (.359 inches) is it possible that I could reduce the diameter of the case length of the seated section by screwing the FCD down to the shell plate?

B3. I don't mind buying new cases but the batch I am using is mixed head stamps. Wouldn't that generally be indicative of the subject case batch being shot from more than one revolver?

B4. The empty cases that have been run through the Lee sizing die fit into the Model 36 chambers - plunk! Doesn't that mean the brass is OK? All completed ammo using the smaller plated bullets (.357 inches) chambers in the Model 36. This makes me think I have a bullet and not a case issue; right?
 
#12 ·
I ran into something like this myself. I shoot a Bull Dog, .44 special, and I own a Ruger Black Hawk in .44 mag. Shooting the .44 special in the Ruger, I wind up with the same problem, brass that
is a little large at the base for the Bull Dog, once resized. Now that I know this, I just load up the .44 special ammo, shove it into my .44 special, and fire it! Once it's fired, it now fits the chambers of the Bull Dog again. If your problem is the bullets, just mark them so you will know not to shoot them in the .38, then don't buy any more.
 
#13 ·
RAJBCPA::

I am not a proponent of range brass or once fired commercial brass unless I know its history. In addition the bullet diameter is greater than I would expect and may be from a suspect supplier or perhaps ordered in that bigger diameter on purpose or by mistake.

Exactly where does the errant reloaded cartridge stop in its attempt to ender the cylinder? If it is initially then it could be the crimp is too aggressive. If it is farther into the cylinder it could be the base of the case is blown out. But you said that the errant cartridges measure 0.377 inches and that is 0.002 inches UNDER the max for that cartridge. It should slide right into the chambers of any 38 Special gun. I suspect you are not measuring along the entire length of the case. You need to re-visit measurements.

I am a proponent of the LEE FCD for rifles, but NOT for pistols. The pistol version is completely different from the collet version for rifles and is nothing more than a crimp only die with a sizing ring at the die entrance to fix a screwed up crimp. After looking at the way the FCD is made I see no reason the die can not be put right down on the shell plate to iron out any bulges close to the rim. But back the crimp adjuster out and readjust it to get the correct amount of crimp. Do not over do the crimp. If the crimp ends up greater in diameter than the case body (bulges) then you have gone too far with the crimp adjuster.

It is possible that the cylinder was made too tight at the end closest to the forcing cone. As tooling wears out in the factory there becomes a variation in the fit of gun parts even though the completed gun is with in spec but at the big end of the tolerances. S&W's history has not been all roses. They have hard times and good times. The guns supplied in bad times have sometimes had issue do to poor quality control and details not done to completion. Were the 1970's one of those periods? I don't know. I can tell you guns made in the late 1980's to early 1990's did suffer. My 44 Mag N framed S&W from that era was delivered to me all gritty in operation because the gun was full of machine shop grit not cleaned out. How any inspector could pass that gun is beyond me unless directed by management to reduce inspection times and squawks on the inspection paperwork. Once torn down and thoroughly cleaned the grittiness disappeared. Apparently the cleaning step was eliminated. An L framed 357 gun from much later was delivered pristine and is now a favorite.

LDBennett
 
#14 ·
I spent hours going back and measuring everything and comparing these to the measurements in the Speer book for 38 Special and then adjusting the dies.

Did I mention earlier that the lead cast bullets (.359 inches) are .001 over specification? The seller lists these as .358 inches.

* I ran a two dozen once-fired cases through the Lee sizing die and the empties went plunk in the small chambered Model 36.

* Using the too large .359 lead cast bullets, I adjusted both the bullet seating die and the factory crimp die more than a half dozen times. The completed ammo goes "plunk" in the Model 66 and Model 686 but they DO NOT chamber in the Model 36.

* Using the last die settings, I went back and loaded three dozen cases using a different copper plated bullet that measures a smaller .357 inches. This completed ammo chambers correctly in the Model 36. Plunk!

For $66 bucks per 1,000, I'm not going to make a fuss with the bullet maker about the over-sized 125 grain lead cast projectiles. However, I probably will not buy from them again.
 
#15 · (Edited)
One other observation here. Looking down the chambers of the tight Model 36, I can see machining marks on each cylinder. These start about 1/4 inch in from the forcing cone side of the cylinder. I put a wood barbeque skewer down the chambers and these machining marks (raised) can be readily felt.

The same machining marks are present on my Model 66 - 357 Mag, and Model 686 - 357 mag, however, they start much closer to the end of the chamber - again at the forcing cone side. The machining marks are both much shallower - about 1/8 inch from the end and are not as restrictive as the tight Model 36.

The 158 grain platted bullets that measure .357 inches are round nose.

The 125 grain lead cast bullets that measure an over-sized .359 inches are round nose, flat point with a two rings. One ring is a lube ring - below the crimp. The other ring is above the crimp and does not contain lube.
 
#17 ·
One other observation here. Looking down the chambers of the tight Model 36, I can see machining marks on each cylinder. These start about 1/4 inch in from the forcing cone side of the cylinder. I put a wood barbeque skewer down the chambers and these machining marks (raised) can be readily felt.

The same machining marks are present on my Model 66 - 357 Mag, and Model 686 - 357 mag, however, they start much closer to the end of the chamber - again at the forcing cone side. The machining marks are both much shallower - about 1/8 inch from the end and are not as restrictive as the tight Model 36.

The 158 grain platted bullets that measure .357 inches are round nose.

The 125 grain lead cast bullets that measure an over-sized .359 inches are round nose, flat point with a two rings. One ring is a lube ring - below the crimp. The other ring is above the crimp and does not contain lube.
Aaaaaand, we're back to polishing the chambers.
 
#16 ·
Carver, up in post #8, suggested getting a sizing die. I presume he meant one of these.

http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision...d=1411047951&sr=8-4&keywords=lee+bullet+sizer

You take them .359 bullets and make 'em .358, which should solve the problem.

Although, before I did that, I'd try to find someone that had some .358 bullets, and load a couple and see if they went "plunk" into the 36. It would suck to drop 20 to 25 bucks on a piece of equipment and that did not solve the problem.
 
#18 ·
Well, reaming or polishing the chambers would be a tough choice for me.

The factory machining marks must serve some purpose, I suppose they may help with accuracy, maybe?. Does anyone here know why these rings are designed into the chambers of S&W revolvers?

I guess I would prefer to find a bullet that consistently works in this gun and stick to that for the reloading bench. It is not a high value gun, but I assume that chamber re-working might make it less valuable too.

Would anyone like to speculate about the chances of this happening with another lead cast bullet which are typically sized .001 over the bore size? I know the copper plated .357 inch projectiles work in this gun but they are almost twice the cost of lead cast.

I'm retired now and hope to shoot the revolvers at my new range frequently. Therefore, I prefer the low cost of lead cast bullets.
 
#21 ·
I believe you are misnaming something. As Mr. Moody said, "machining marks" are chatter from the machine tools. What I think you may be looking at is the little step in the cylinder. You can see them, in the ends of these chambers.



Their purpose, mostly, is to prevent you from sticking 357s in that little 38 and blowing it (and your hand) all to hell.

The case-mouth rests against that little lip, while the bullet extends into the "smaller diameter" section of the chamber.
 
#22 ·
Alpo:
That is correct. These are the same "machining tool marks" that I am seeing on all my S&W revolvers.

So, if the 38 Special case is too long (or a 357 mag case is loaded) for the Model 36, would these cylinder steps prevent the round from chambering (plunking)? It still does not explain why all the same completed once-fired cases that have been loaded with the smaller plated .357 inch projectiles fit the Model 36 just fine.
 
#23 ·
No. If the empty case goes in, then being loaded would make no difference. The case mouth hits the lip, whether the shell is loaded or not.

UNLESS, the narrower part (where the bullet goes) is too narrow for the diameter of bullet you are using.

It could just be that you have super-tight chamber mouths, and your .359 bullets won't fit.

Or it could be that there is a build-up of lead or bullet lube (or similar) in that section, which is so thin you can't see it, but is thick enough to block chambering the round.

You might try (and this will trash the brush, but what the hey) chucking a cleaning rod into a drill motor, and screwing a 40 caliber brass brush into the rod. Put some cleaning solvent on it, and run it in and out of the chambers. The brass will not hurt the steel chambers, but if there is any foreign matter in them, the spinning brass brush should clean it out.

edit: >So, if the 38 Special case is too long (or a 357 mag case is loaded) for the Model 36, would these cylinder steps prevent the round from chambering (plunking)?< Yes, if the CASE is too long, it would prevent it from chambering enough to allow the cylinder to close. But that's not what's going on with you. Both empty cases and cases loaded with the other bullet chamber fine, so it's a bullet-problem, not a case-problem.
 
#27 ·
I don't know if this would solve your problem, but if I was loading those bullets, I'd crimp it in the top groove.

It dang sure looks like this bullet

and if so, you're crimping it in the grease groove, not the crimping groove.
 
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