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New Reloading Caliber for me - 30-30 Win

13K views 71 replies 12 participants last post by  gdmoody 
#1 ·
As the title says, new caliber for me in reloading.

I'd asked about using Berry's 150 grain flat nosed bullets a few weeks ago, got the "okay" from the collective, so that's what I used.... along with IMR 4320 powder and CCI Large Rifle (#200) primers. Die set (Lee) I'd ordered came in a few days ago (to include a factory crimp die), so figured I get them set up and do the deed…. working on a batch I shot up a couple of weeks ago.

FWIW - I always get a new turret when I get a new die set. Once I have them set up I don't have to go through the whole set-up process again; makes life a whole lot easier. I also found out that Lee has die/turret holders available, so went ahead and got a few of those to keep the assembled dies/turrets out of the crud out here in the garage. Until that time, I was going to try and make some holders up out of PVC, but that's not necessary now.

Reloaded rounds:


Turret/die holders:


Once this crappy weather clears up, we'll head to the range and see how they do. In the interim, trust ya'll have a nice, safe Thanksgiving.
 
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#4 ·
I started loading for the 30-30 about 3o years ago. It's an easy cartridge to load for, be careful not to get case lube on the shoulder of the brass, because it is very thin and will dent like crazy. If you're loading for a tube magazine lever gun there are two important things you'll need to do. One is to use bullets with a cannelure in either a round or flat nose configuration, and to apply a crimp to hold the bullet in place under recoil and mag spring pressure. The other is to maintain a consistant cartridge trim length, don't vary this length by more than about plus or minus .002-.003" difference from cartridge to cartridge. If loading for a single shot or a bolt action, the two aforementioned details are not a necessity.
 
#7 ·
Appreciate the tips.

These will be used in a Marlin 336C, the same gun that produced the spent rounds I releaded. The bullets I am using have no cannelure, but during my set-up procedure for the dies, I make up several dummy rounds to adjust for proper bullet depth (OAL), and crimp. After pulling the bullets, they had a decent indent around the circumference of their body.

Once at the range, I will mark a line around the round at the bullet/case neck joint. I will also carry my calipers along to make note of their overall length. I'll load up the magazine tube, fire a round, then eject the remaining rounds and check my mark and measure their length to make sure the bullets are staying put. I'll repeat this process for several fired rounds just to make sure everything is okay.
 
#16 ·
Okay, ya'll are making me nervous. I am relatively new at this (reloading) and several of you have mentioned making sure the OAL is correct. I have successfully reloaded (all fired with no drama) .38 Spcl, .357 Mag., .30 Carbine, and .308. Since OAL has been mentioned several times, curious why this should be any more important to any other round being reloaded. In this case (30-30 Win), all of the rounds I have done are right at the OAL dimension called out in Lee's reloading manual and those on the Hodgdon's website for the weight round and the powder selection I am using.

????????
 
#21 ·
The over-all length is more critical in the 30-30 than the 308. After the first round is fired and the lever cycled the bolt retracts extracting and ejecting the fired case, the lifter drops to allow the next case from the magazine to be put into position. If the cartridge OAL is too long, the round will not cycle upward through the action for the lifter to raise it into loading position, and the bolt pushing it forward into the chamber, as the lever is cycled. The 308 and the 30 Carbine cartridge OAL is usually only critical if it exceeds the magazine length. For either cartridge being too short does little else than raise firing pressures
The 38 Spl. and the 357 Mag cartridge OAL is dependent upon cylinder length, presuming it's being shot in a revolver. A crimp should be applied to these rounds to keep the bullets from moving forward in the case under recoil and possibly tying the cylinder rotation. Crimping has in my experience made my ammo more consistent at least in accuracy, and most like in velocity as well (I don't have a chronograph to check it). Some powders like H110 and WW296 require a crimp to get consistent ignition, and these powders (they're the same) are designed to work at maximum pressure and need the crimp to achieve this. The bigger/heavier the bullet and the higher the loading pressure, the more a crimp is needed. A roll crimp with canalured bullets is a more positive method, but a taper crimp will work also. If cast bullets are being used a crimp should be applied in either a crimp groove or at the front shoulder to keep the bullets in place.
 
#18 ·
FCD, not fod

factory crimp die, lee's uses a collet crimp, thus no need for a cannelure, in no chance to bulge the neck ir crush the shoulder roll crimping with no cannelure.

is rill crimping needs exact oak for the crimp to be correct, fcd less picky on exact case length.
 
#23 · (Edited)
If you can't find jacketed bullets there is always cast lead,the 30-30 is probably one of the easiest calibers to shoot cast lead in. My old Sav. pump 30-30 hasn't seen a J bullet in 10 years and probably never will. I'm currently casting an shooting the Lee 170 gr. RNFP and Lee 90 gr. SWC bullets and hope to add a NOE Ranch Dog mold with optional HP pins soon. If you don't cast there are many commercial casters that offer 30-30 bullets in standard lubed lead or the newer coated bullets.
 
#25 ·
I've shot lots of the Berry's plated pistol bullets in the past mostly the 9mm but I cast for that now as well.

I've looked at those bullets your shooting in the past but never bought any,they have a decent meplat and should make a good hunting rd. as well as long as you don't push them to fast. I believe 1700 fps. is the Max recommended velocity.
 
#27 ·
I've shot lots of the Berry's plated pistol bullets in the past mostly the 9mm but I cast for that now as well.

I've looked at those bullets your shooting in the past but never bought any,they have a decent meplat and should make a good hunting rd. as well as long as you don't push them to fast. I believe 1700 fps. is the Max recommended velocity.
Since I may already be in trouble, what are the repercussions if you do shoot them too fast?

As you pointed out, the plated Berry bullets I have are rated at 1700 fps. The powder I was able to find for 30-30 Win and several other rifle rounds I have already reloaded, and fired, was IMR4320. Even at the recommended starting load Hodgdon's website says this powder is rated at 2,062 fps. for a 150 grain 30-30 bullet. I've already loaded up a number of rounds using the Berry Preferred Plated bullets and the above powder at the starting load, but have not yet gone to the range.

I've asked Berry for their recommendation, but haven't heard anything back yet.
 
#28 ·
You should be using cast lead bullet data designed for bullets of equal or slightly lesser weight and under the Max. velocity rating of those listed below. The bullets are designed to work on the same pressure curve as hard cast lead so the velocity will be similar.

If you use Jacketed bullet data with the Berry's bullet according to them you probably going to get around a 5% to 8% velocity increase over the J bullet data,so if you using the starting load it's possible that your actually firing those bullets in the 2100+ fps. range.

What's the most likely issue,probably stripping the plating off the bullet when it's fired and poor accuracy.

Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets.

Our 30-30 and 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.
 
#30 ·
You should be using cast lead bullet data designed for bullets of equal or slightly lesser weight and under the Max. velocity rating of those listed below. The bullets are designed to work on the same pressure curve as hard cast lead so the velocity will be similar.

If you use Jacketed bullet data with the Berry's bullet according to them you probably going to get around a 5% to 8% velocity increase over the J bullet data,so if you using the starting load it's possible that your actually firing those bullets in the 2100+ fps. range.

What's the most likely issue,probably stripping the plating off the bullet when it's fired and poor accuracy.

Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets.

Our 30-30 and 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.
Okay, took your recommendation and picked up some Missouri Bullet #2 Whitetail 135 grain RNFP cast bullets they advertise for use with 30-30 lever guns. All the reloading data resources I have/use (Hodgdon's and Lee Reloading Manual) do not list any load data for 135 grain cast bullets. Remembering that the only two powders I presently have available are IMR 4227 and IMR 4320, the latter I was wanting to use for my 30-30 loads. What would be your recommendation on starting loads, for either, with these 135 grain cast bullets?

Please, no snide remarks from anyone. I'm new at this and still trying to learn.
 
#31 ·
not a snide remark, but as you have found, you can't always find a powder load for every powder and projectile. Best to decide on the projectile you want, then choose a powder that I lusted for your load.

being limited on powders means you are limited a bit more on what projectiles and calibers you can load.
 
#41 · (Edited)
gb let's put on the brakes here for a moment before we make a big mess of things. First off in general you can use the heavier bullet data with a lighter bullet but not vice versa. In doing so you should always start with the starting loads and work up keeping you eye out for signs of pressure.

The amount of powder in a given charge weight is not the only factor that determines the pressure a load generates. You can add to that the type of primer used,bullet weight,diameter,the amount of bearing surface of the bullet as well. All these added together as well as the test weapon or barrel the test rd. is fired in will determine the pressure the load generates.

The load data on the Hodgon site using IMR-4320 is for the Speer 130 gr. flat point and Hornady 140 gr. Flex Tip both which are jacketed bullets. Both the velocity and pressure data will be totally different when you substitute a cast lead or plated bullet using that data. The pressure will be slightly lower or about the same depending on which charge weight you use but the velocity will be higher because cast lead bullets of equal weight and bearing surface produce less friction so the velocity will be slightly higher how much is hard to know exactly without the use of a chronograph to record the velocity.

A few other problem arise with using the two powder you have the velocity even with the starting charge weight is just to high for a plain base non gas checked cast lead or plated bullet. A cast lead bullets can only handle a certain amount of both high pressure and high velocity without either using a harder alloy/ BHN and adding a gas check which protects the bullets base for gas cutting which leads to bore leading and poor accuracy.

The two bullets you have recently purchased either the 150 gr. plated bullets or 135 gr. plain base cast lead would work fine provided you use the right powders to keep those bullet in the low pressure low velocity range.

For the 150 gr. plated bullets you can use 150 gr. cast bullet data from the Lyman cast bullet manual. For the 135 gr. cast lead bullets I would keep the velocity at 1400 fps. or lower any of the starting loads would work fine for the 135 gr. bullets.

150 gr. cast bullet

Red Dot 6.8 grs. 1257 fps. 9.0 grs. 1481 fps.

Unique 7.5 grs. 1333 fps. 11.0 grs. 1691 fps.

SR-4756 8.0 grs. 1282 fps. 11.1 grs. 1573 fps.

The starting loads for 170 gr. cast bullets will work for the 150 gr. plated as well as the 135 cast lead bullets but understand the velocity is going to go up quiet a bit more as the loads are for heavier bullets so if you use these loads stick with the starting loads. I would only go above the starting loads if you have the use of a chrono to check the velocity as both these bullet will probably be the most accurate when shot in the 1400 fps. or less range. One of my favorite 30-30 loads is the Lee 170 or 150 gr. RNFP bullet I cast myself. I leave the gas check off lightly tumble lube the bullet once before and once after sizing and use 7.0 gr. of Alliant Red Dot which give me a velocity on the chrono just over 1200 fps. Here is a 10 shot group out of my old Sav. pump 30-30 at 50 yds with the irons.


170 gr. cast bullets

Red Dot 6.5 grs. 1159 fps. 8.5 grs. 1348 fps.

Unique 7.0 grs. 1240 fps. 10.6 grs. 1555 fps.

SR-4756 7.0 grs. 1102 fps. 10.5 grs. 1423 fps.

W231 6.0 grs. 1175 fps. 8.0 grs. 1275 fps.

TiteGroup 4.5 grs. 960 fps. 6.5 grs. 1383 fps.

2400 7.0 grs. 1005 fps. 11.0 grs. 1377 fps.

Bullseye 5.0 grs. 990 fps. 7.4 grs. 1263 fps.

As other have said research and a working knowledge of all the different options as to bullets and powders that will work together will help you get some good loads for your rifle instead of having a pile of different bullet and powders that want work together. It's a learning process that never ends as I have been doing this for over 35 years and I'm still leaning and trying new things.
 
#42 ·
gb let's put on the brakes here for a moment before we make a big mess of things. First off in general you can use the heavier bullet data with a lighter bullet but not vice versa. In doing so you should always start with the starting loads and work up keeping you eye out for signs of pressure.

SNIP
Appreciate that; good info.

Think the best thing for me to do is pick up one of the Lyman Cast Bullet manuals so I'll have it for the cast bullets I have, and any future ones that I may choose to use. I'll also put the 30-30 bullets I have on the back shelf and keep an eye out for the specific powders I'll need so I can use them (the bullets) in the future. Fortunately, I have a good stash of commercial 30-30 ammunition so I'm in no big rush to have to reload the spent brass I create. I also have a fair amount of Speer 150 grn. FP bullets on hand and those will be used as I need to.
 
#44 ·
"What am I missing here?"

My data comes from the Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Manual which only uses Lyman cast bullet molds as well as a couple other reliable sources. The Lyman #4 manual uses Lee,RCBS,Saeco as well as Lyman molds so there are going to be some differences in load data between manuals.

Also the editor of the #4 manual who I don't care much for omits lots of tried and true cast bullet powders from the #4 manual which irritated many over at the Cast Boolit Forum but it is what it is.
 
#45 ·
"What am I missing here?"

My data comes from the Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Manual which only uses Lyman cast bullet molds as well as a couple other reliable sources. The Lyman #4 manual uses Lee,RCBS,Saeco as well as Lyman molds so there are going to be some differences in load data between manuals.

Also the editor of the #4 manual who I don't care much for omits lots of tried and true cast bullet powders from the #4 manual which irritated many over at the Cast Boolit Forum but it is what it is.
Appreciate that. Any reason this updated info shouldn't be considered valid? If not, I'm particularly interested in using the IMR4227 (since I already have it) for my 150 grn. plated, and 135 grn. cast bullets.
 
#46 ·
The starting load of IMR-4227 should work fine with the 150 gr. plated bullets.

I would load up just a couple rds. using the starting load of IMR-4227 with the plain base 135 cast bullets and check for leading if so at least you don't have a bunch loaded up as you can always just save them till you can get a faster powder and keep the velocity lower.

Velocity is going to be slightly higher with the 135 gr. bullet using IMR 150 gr. data which I don't like pushing a plain base bullet that fast so leading may be an issue it's hard to say until you try.
 
#47 ·
The starting load of IMR-4227 should work fine with the 150 gr. plated bullets.

I would load up just a couple rds. using the starting load of IMR-4227 with the plain base 135 cast bullets and check for leading if so at least you don't have a bunch loaded up as you can always just save them till you can get a faster powder and keep the velocity lower.

Velocity is going to be slightly higher with the 135 gr. bullet using IMR 150 gr. data which I don't like pushing a plain base bullet that fast so leading may be an issue it's hard to say until you try.
Okay. Once again, thanks.
 
#48 ·
Okay, I'm happy.

After all this discussion, finally got to the range today with my first batch of 30-30 reloads. The ones I was using today were Sierra 150 grn. FN, starting load of IMR 4320 (30.5 grns.). 50 yard range, 5-1/2" overall target diameter with a 1/2" center.

LH target was getting the scope dialed in. After the holes started disappearing I shifted to the right target. First two were slightly right of center, made a slight scope adjustment and the first after that was dead center of the red. The rest were pretty much in there but will blame the slight spread on me and my shakes. Still, very happy with the results.

 
#51 ·
The starting load of IMR-4227 should work fine with the 150 gr. plated bullets.

I would load up just a couple rds. using the starting load of IMR-4227 with the plain base 135 cast bullets and check for leading if so at least you don't have a bunch loaded up as you can always just save them till you can get a faster powder and keep the velocity lower.

Velocity is going to be slightly higher with the 135 gr. bullet using IMR 150 gr. data which I don't like pushing a plain base bullet that fast so leading may be an issue it's hard to say until you try.
I haven't tried the 135 grn. cast bullets yet, but did get to try out some reloads using 16.4 grns. of 4227 ( starting load) and 150 grn. plated bullets. They're limited to 1700 fps. and that powder brings them in slightly in under that. Was a little concerned since that was the least powder I have ever seen in a case since starting this little reloading venture. Normal 30-30 loads I was using for the Sierra's was 30.5 of 4320, and that almost filled the case up to the taper. I was fearing some sqibs, but that didn't happen. Rounds were just hitting low, so I adjusted my aim point and brought them up to where I was happy. I didn't want to fool with the scope adjustments since it is dead nuts with my normal 30-30 loads I had worked up. I only worked up 8 rounds, but that was enough for me to see how the combination worked.
 
#57 ·
I was just about to edit my last post. The only cast bullets I reload are for pistol. I've got some that I've cast for my 303 and 30-40, just haven't done anything with them yet.
 
#60 ·
Thinking about this, I would stick with a roll crimp on the cast bullets. With the FCD it will squeeze the brass and also compress the bullet. The problem being, the brass will spring back slightly and the cast bullet won't.
 
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