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45-70 pistol powder load hammers like a MULE!!!

10K views 22 replies 10 participants last post by  TheGunClinger 
#1 ·
I started off loading my new H & R 45-70 by breaking down two boxes of factory 405 grain Corelok ammo, replacing their powder with my HS-6 and their J bullets. The load came fromhttp://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm. 12 grains of HS-6 was their minimum load so I loaded them up and I was fine with the recoil. Then I cast up some Lee 405 grain bullets. WW alloy and water dropped. No sizing as they dropped out of the mold at .459, 413 grains and tumble lubed them. Loaded up a box with HS-6 at 12, 12.5, 13, 13.5. Then crimped the bullet. The first 5 rounds worked fine but were noticeably heavier on the recoil. By the time I got to the 13.5 grain set, these rounds had me wincing. My next box of bullets was from the same cast bullets but used IMR 4198. This load data came from http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm. Their data started at 21.5 grains. Once again I started at 21.5, 22, 22.5, 23. These loads seemed to pick up where the HS-6 left off in recoil. It was painful to finish the last 5. I have added weight to my H & R by filling the stock with bb's and adding a Caldwell bi-pod. I'm guestimating the weight is up to 8 lbs. According to the recoil calculator, the HS-6 should hit about 10 lbs and the IMR 4198 right at 9 lbs. I have shot full military German 8mm in a 9 lb weapon and a 30-06 Springfield weighing the same with armor piercing ammo. And I'm here to tell you these 45-70's were right there with them. No way they should be hitting that hard according to the math. I managed to retrieve 4 from the 2 boxes I shot. The lands on the bullet between the grease grooves seemed to appear smeared towards the rear of the bullet on all of them. Noticeable rifling marks but not down to the bottom of the grease grooves. Can I think that these bullets are so over bore that they are causing such resistance to cause this type of recoil!!! Fired cases came out of the bore with my fingers, no resistance. No flat primers, no swells, cracks or breech face marks on the base of the case. No signs of overpressure. HELP!!!
 
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#2 ·
The .45-70 CAN kick like a Missouri mule. Many others load this cartridge, but here are a few peeps from the peanut gallery: H&R made many .45-70 rifles. Are you loading for a "Trapdoor" model? If so, you need to keep the pressures on the LOW side because of the design.

Second, you are shooting bullets of .459 diameter? That MAY be a tad on the large size. I've shot an H&R "Cavalry Carbine" in the past, and used bullets sized to .457 with good results. Many years ago I traded it off and eventually bought an 1884 Springfield Carbine. I size my bullets to .458 for it. Most rifles of this type have shallow rifleing.

You may already know that there are 3 distinct loadings for .45-70. The first are milder loads for the Trapdoors and for older .45-70 rifles. The 2nd are loads for the stronger Winchester and Marlin lever guns. The 3rd - and the 'hottest' - are for stronger modern action types.

In many years of handloading for the .45-70s that I shoot (Trapdoors) I have found that bullet wieght and powder type is critical. I eventually ended up useing IMR-3031 powder and a filler to take up empty case space. I also have loaded original spec blackpowder cartridges for it. The recoil - even with blackpowder - is respectable. My IMR-3031 loads are a bit kinder to both me and my Carbine. The 405 grain bullets are great, but I like the 385 grain Lyman cast bullets a tad better. I'm not bumping quite as much mass with that bullet.

Couple of things I'd do if it were me: First, slug your barrel and find out the exact diameter. Then size your bullets to that - or even a thousandths over that. I wouldn't go much more than that. Second, I would try some IMR-3031. There are many powders you can use, but I'm just telling you what I've found to work.

I know this will sound wierd, but I use puffed wheat cereal as a filler. I've done this for many years and it works great for me. It takes up the empty space between the powder and the bullet base. It compacts well, leaves no mess or residue in the bore and is cheap. The .45-70 case has a large capacity, and the filler keeps the powder charge in one place and consistant.

Finally, when I first started loading the .45-70, my old loading manual suggested a pistol powder (Unique). Useing the old recepie and the old style Unique, those worked reasonabley well. I didn't load for that caliber for about 20 years and got back into it. Whipped out my old dies and components and loaded a batch with some fresh (newer) Unique. Kicked like a mule and shot groups like you'd expect from a shotgun. I gave that up and ended up with IMR-3031. Much better than pistol powder.
 
#3 ·
I also use IMR 3031. In the Lyman 49th it is the favored powder using z 405gr JSP. I am using 49 grains or powder and yes, kicks like a mule!
I also use Varget 50 grains, H4895 51 grains, and IMR 4198 39 grains. All those loads are very potent. As I dont recoil from recoil I love the kick. I shoot it through my Marlin 1895 SBL.
 
#4 ·
First of all Jim spoke volumes. Great advice.

I shot a 45-70 for many years in lever rifles, a Pedersoli rolling block, (never did like that rifle), and a Shiloh Sharps. My go to load was 34 gr.s of IMR-3031 with no filler under the 405 gr. bullet. I have nothing against fillers and use them frequently but that load in that case never seemed to call for one. That load isn't a screamer but it was accurate in every 45-70 I ever tried it in and lay deer and hogs flat. Shortly after that I went to straight black powder in the case. Since those days I've "graduated", if it can be called that, to the 45-90 in a Shiloh Sharps. All I've used in it is black.
 
#5 ·
A couple things:

I use 300 gr Remington bulk Jacketd bullets and 37 gr of H4227 magnum pistol powder in my modern Browning 1886 Winchester clone. The steel butt plate makes for painful recoil so I use a shooting recoil pad on my shoulder of Sorbene rubber. It does kick hard.

The latest thinking from LYMAN according to one of their technical representative on their phone TECH line is to never use anything for a filler. (I made the call a couple years ago). Maybe it is a liability thing but they now discount any mention in their manuals of the use of ANY fillers in cartridges. It is better then to use a rifle powder that is more filling of the big 45-70 case. The 45-70 is a black powder case whose total capacity was filled with black powder by necessity to avoid detonation with black powder from an air space. Smokeless powders are generally more able to handle extra air space but more filling powder charges tend to be more uniform in firing.

LDBennett
 
#7 ·
Nice reply, LD. I've been useing puffed wheat as a filler for a long time. The theory that convinced me to start way back doing so was that - as you correctly stated - the case was intended for a large volume charge of black powder. Smokeless powder doesn't take up nearlly as much space. Typical loads are somewhere around 1/2 of the interior volume of the case. When in actual use, a cartridge is up, down or sideways at different times. A shot can be up hill, flat across or down. That being the case, your charge can be against the primer, or up against the base of the bullet, or just laying half flat in the case when the primer flashes into it. I remember way back reading up on this in multiple sources, but I could'nt tell you where it was now. I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last Friday.

A filler just keeps the powder in the same spot when it is ignited. Having said that, my OLD Lyman manual calls for a 1/4" 'dacron wad' cut to size. I never used that 'dacron wad'. I use puffed wheat cereal because it is cheap, works very well, and I can find it in bulk in just about any grocery store. It leaves no residue in the case or in the barrel.

Again, I'm not recommending a specific load ot technique - just 'splaining what I do. If you use it - great. If you don't - great. If you do try it, be sure to work up your loads and watch your results carefully. Just common sense like most reloading practices. Wouldn't you know that the first thing I'd loose is the vision in my shooting eye......... Old age sucks, but I guess the alternative sucks worse.
 
#9 ·
jim brady:

I know many here use filler but for some reason LYMAN choose to no longer recommend any filler at a all. They must have gotten sued or something. I could also be that the realtime Presure Transducer measurement of pressure showed a spike in those filler loads that LYMAN did not like.

My 37 grs. of H4227 or IMR 4227 don't fill the 45-70 case either and I have not had any problem with in consistencies in velocity or impacts on accuracy. But some powders are a lot more susceptible to where the powder is in a big case like the 45-70. I certainly understand the concept of the fillers but I have need to use them anyway.

By the way my load is not on the Hodgdon Reloading Center. It is of the "Lever Action" load level and not to be used forTrapdoors. It is listed in the Sierra Manual as a max load for lever guns.

LDBennett
 
#10 ·
I use 3031 for my 45/70 GuideGun loads....I carry it in my TT for on road protection and hogs-but I don't load it hot-using my cast450gr bullets,I load it at 1400fps-nothing has walked away yet.I tried factory 325grFTXs-they will ROCK your world-wow.IMR4227 is a good powder but I have a lot more 3031,that's why I use it.
 
#11 ·
One mistake when looking for a lessor recoil is to use pistol powders.

Recoil isn't only a product of velocity and mass being moved - but also the acceleration of the mass.

Pistol powders burn at a faster rate than rifle powders. Which will accelerate the bullet faster, thus creating a harsher impulse which tapers off. Rifle powders burn slower, but more continuously throughout the transition of the bullet down the bore, which results in a lower initial recoil impulse that ramps up to about the same overall recoil energy.

When trying to obtain the same velocity when using pistol versus rifle powders, using the same bullet and gun - pistol powders, more often than not, result in a harsher recoil because of the faster burn rate. The overall thrust of the gun backwards is the same in foot pounds of energy, but the acceleration is greater with the pistol powder.
 
#13 ·
Well I have an update from my problem. On suggestions, I went back loaded up 4 rounds from scratch. All 4 of the rounds were the minimum load for these powders. Trail boss, HS-6, IMR 3031 and IMR 4198. Since I was using all new brass from Star, full length size, trim to length, flash hole cleanup, expand the neck, prime and charge with the powder. But this time instead of using the book recommended AOL, I put a bullet in the chamber to get my maximum overall length like I do with my jacket bullets. My max AOL for this bullet was 2.464, not 2.550 like the book says and what I did last time. This time I made my AOL 2.455 and didn't crimp the case. TADA! Instead of the bullet in the lands kicking the crap out of me, all were pleasant with only the 4198 being noticeably sharper recoil but still good. Thanks y'all for the hint on 3031 because it's recoil wasn't much more than the Trail boss. Also got a # of IMR 4064 to try. I have always had great luck with it in 308. Hopefully it will work well in 45-70 also. Missing one step in my loading process caused me lots of pain. Let's not do that again :)
 
#15 ·
i love imr 4064, havn't checked on it for 45 70 though.

ps, how did you like trail boss in 45-70?

good luck
I do like the recoil of Trail Boss and had a lot better luck with accuracy in my 45/70 than I did in my 7-08 w/cast bullets. I also love IMR4064 in my 308. Give me the best groups over all the bullet weights I use(110-165) and the best thing is I only use 36 grains with all of them. All are sub MOA. Tried IMR 4064, H4227 and BL-C2 yesterday and all were LOW in recoil. Not sure about the un-burned powder in the bore though. Should I worry about in and step up the load? Even if I do, the recoil still shouldn't be to bad. I guess I should have started with rifle powder to start with. :)
 
#16 ·
You guys gave me the itch to snatch the 1886 'Cavalry Carbine' out of the safe. Going to get it out before the snow flies. I love shooting that old thing. My loads collecting dust are 31.0 grains of IMR-3031, about 5 kernals of puffed wheat and the Lyman 385 cast bullet sized to .458. The data from back then was about 1100 FPS. Might be an unpleasant experiance for those mice and spiders who've made a home in the barrel.;) Don't know if they will be smileing - but I sure will be!:D
 
#21 ·
Update,Well I loaded up those 405's with some BL-C2 as 27, 28, 29 and 30 grains in groups of 5 rounds. All went well with the ammo and the recoil. The 29 grain load worked best for my Handi Rifle. Grouped about 1.5 " at 50 yards. Not bad without tweeking so far. Things to note though. I was shooting in 35' weather with a heavy coat on. Still not a kicker, but a pusher. LOVE IT. Also noted on the rounds I seated the primer with a bit more depth than I should have, the load fizzled as if I crushed the primer and didn't get full ignition. I will definitely watch out for this next time. Never really noticed it on my 7-08. Overall cartridge length was 2.455 with this bullet NOT the max noted in the manual. I ended up .010" off the lands. Thanks for the input yall. This cartridge and I are starting to shape up
 
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