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How big of an invitation for the ATF is owning a Class III Permit?

4K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  Alpo 
#1 ·
I've been considering obtaining a Class III Permit, even though I may never be able to afford (without the guilt of having spent that much money) any class III items. I do want the privilege of ownership though.
 
#2 ·
I may have it wrong, but I think you are going about it backwards. You have to have the Class III item at hand before you apply for the permit. They want the details, serials and proof that it is currently on the register as part of the permitting process.
I'm sure that someone with detailed knowledge of the process will chip in soon.
 
#3 ·
There is no such thing as a Class III permit.

We got that? NO. SUCH. THING.

There is, however, a tax document that you get for each NFA item you possess.

You find the item. You pay for the item. The owner of record of the item sends in the tax document, along with the tax (either 200 dollars or 5 dollars, depending on what the item is), and then you wait. They decide whether or not you can have the item. If they decide no, they send back the tax. If they decide yes, they send back the tax document, now with an approval signature and a tax stamp, and now YOU are the owner of record.

If you wish to buy another NFA item, you do the same thing, all over again. Each item requires a new tax document and payment of another tax.

People that say that they have/they-had/they-know-someone-that-has a Class III permit are either liars or fools, because there is no such thing.
 
#4 ·
But as to your question. I've heard all the horror stories. You get an FFL and ATF will come search your house whenever they want. You get a C&RFFL, and ATF will come search your house whenever they want. You get a machine gun and ATF will come search your house whenever they want.

Bull.

If the country ever goes far enough in the toilet that they start to confiscate guns, then yes, being on the NFA rolls will have them come to your house first. But otherwise? I been on their list for right at 17 years. They've never come to see me, never called me, never showed up wanting to search.

Why should they?

So, if you want a machine gun, get one. Know that, while it is expensive now, it will get more expensive as time goes on. They passed a law in 1986 that said NO MORE NEW ONES. So all of 'em that are out there now, are all there will be. When you have a limited amount of merchandise, and the prospective buyers pool keeps getting larger, the price of the merchandise goes up. In 1980, when I opted to NOT buy a Thompson, they were 450 bucks. In 1998, when I bought one, it was 5000. Today - 10 to 12 thousand.
 
#6 ·
I doubt that you'd have any problems with visitation. You're not applying for any kind of permit or license, you're paying an extortion fee. Which as Alpo stated, you pay for the firearm first, then pay and ask for the okay.
 
#9 ·
There is no such thing asII permit.

We got that? NO. SUCH. THING.

There is, however, a tax document that you get for each NFA item you possess.

You find the item. You pay for the item. The owner of record of the item sends in the tax document, along with the tax (either 200 dollars or 5 dollars, depending on what the item is), and then you wait. They decide whether or not you can have the item. If they decide no, they send back the tax. If they decide yes, they send back the tax document, now with an approval signature and a tax stamp, and now YOU are the owner of record.

If you wish to buy another NFA item, you do the same thing, all over again. Each item requires a new tax document and payment of another tax.

People that say that they have/they-had/they-know-someone-that-has a Class III permit are either liars or fools, because there is no such thing.
I was kind of thinking he was asking about a ffl for nfa weapons, though img
IF YOU ARE A FFL the ATF can come and search your PLACE OF BUSINESS within the hours you have listed with out letting you know. that is it , whether it be in your house or a
separate building
 
#10 ·
Darn phone..


To alpo

I was thinking he might be talking about a ffl for MFA guns in case he wanted a dealer sample which we pleebs can't get on a form 4.

To wvh

If you have a car ffl, you usually have the option of a compliance inspection at their office.

With ts size of a board I'm sure more than a few of us collect nFA toys.. anyone ever have anything other than a telephone call about n f a or cr issues? Not me..
 
#11 ·
Dang phone is giving me fits typing n f a wants to put MFA

In 15 yes n f a I've had a phone call and 1 letter which was a reply to one I sent them anyway. About the same with atf over a c r license. A couple phone calls or emails.

I really thing the average non selling collector of old stuff and old fast stuff is really way at the bottom of the worry list for alphabet soup
 
#12 ·
Add whatever an FFL costs, for three years, and add the 1000 bucks a year for having a Type 2 or Type 3 SOT added to it - it'd be cheaper to buy the gun.
 
#14 ·
Actually, that depends.

If it's a pre-86 dealer sample, then you can keep it after you let your license go.

Post-86 gun cannot be owned by a "regular guy", so if you have a post-86 dealer sample, if you give up your license you have to get rid of the gun.
 
#15 ·
True. It still need to be a pre may sample. Is, made before may, but wasn't transfered before fopa went into effect.

I know people that went for MFA licenses just to get per samples so they could keep an otherwise unobtainable gun.

I bid and won a 712 schnel, only to find out the seller goofed and found out he could not xfer it. He used to have a ffl, and kept the gun, and only after contacting atf found out he could not xfer it to anyone other than a sot. Based on his inaccurate auction listing, stating it was a fully xferable unit on a form 4, I got out of the auction. ( he actually got banned.. there's a long story to that but he contacted me off auction asking for the sales commission he was going to loose from the non completed auction. I of course refused as the error was his, and I had already tied up plenty of my time too getting documents for the form 4 prep aired and some overnighting of paperwork, before the dunce or con man decided it wasn't transferable. A letter to the auction house got me out of the deal, auction was deleted and he got banned )


I would a loved that gun. Heck, if I had the time, etc, I would have jumped thru the hoops for a ffl /sot just to get it, then hold on to it. Timing wouldn't work though. I never did find out what happened to the gun. I never saw it go up on the other major auction sites I monitored. I know atf got involved as there were calls from both the seller and me to them for clarification. Who knows.. may bee atf disappeared him for trying to sell a gun he couldn't sell ( to me)???
 
#16 ·
I gave up my SOT when they went to 3k for 3yrs....I didn't make enough to cover the expenses but I did keep a couple of PreMay86,so it evened out....The price differences because of an arbitrary date are ridiculous
1.HK MP5-transferable-12-18,000
2.HK MP5-PreMay86-3500-5000
3.HK MP5 PostMay86-1500
PostMay AKs go for about 600,PM M16s-8-900
 
#17 ·
A shop that I used to visit had a m-14 on display. He talked about a class 3 license, and what a hassle it was. Visits at all hours, and so on. That m-14 was sweet! Thumbhole stock, flash hider, it was bad. The shop was in south Florida. It was the early '8o's.
 
#18 ·
Sounds like the store I was at. 1980, Boca Raton. Damn salesman talked me out of it, with the hassles and the paperwork and the time involved and the ATF random inspections. Thompson was 450 dollars, and he talked me out of it. 1998, when I finally got one, it cost 5 grand.
 
#20 ·
In addition to what others have mentioned..

If you're looking to get a FFL+SOT3 or any other FFL(except C&R) - you'll need to be in actual business to sell such things. The ATF will not issue a FFL just so that you can pad your collection. So, that means you'll need some sort of "store front", you also need to make sure it doesn't violate any state/local laws, you'll need to be in compliance with property usage(commercial, residential, etc, etc), you'll also need any state/local licenses, you also need tax ID's for your business. Then on top of that you'll probably want to create a corp/LLC or something like that to separate the business from your personal assets should the "store" get sued. You'll also want some liability insurance that covers you upto at least 2-3 million dollars.

Then, for post-1986 machineguns, you'll only own them under letterhead samples. They really won't be yours to do with as you please. ...they are merely for demonstrations for police and military sales. If you lose your FFL+SOT, you wont be able to keep them.

Another thing to point out - you may have to register with ITAR(via US Dept of State) at a cost of $2250 per year.
 
#21 ·
The tax stamp is extortion??. I don't think so. It was 200 dollars in 1935. At that time 200 dollars was a heck of a lot of money { it would buy a new Model A }, But the rate hasn't changed in 80 years. Now, 200 dollars is nothing, just pray congress doesn't wake up and up date the rate allowing for inflation:oops:. today the inflation idex would make that around 8,000 dollars, do you still think 200 is high????
 
#22 ·
How much it is, I don't think, really matters. What matters is they force you to pay. I agree, that's extortion.
 
#24 ·
Everything else was put in to prevent the motorized bandits. Silencers were added because, it being the Depression, people MIGHT use them to poach game to feed their families.
 
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