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The Remington Model 700/600 series trigger. Safe enough?

8K views 33 replies 15 participants last post by  shootbrownelk 
#1 ·
To start out I have no ball in this game. I present what I learned from reading the book:

"UnSafe by Design: Forensic Gunsmithing and Firearms" by Jack Belk

And by making an engineering judgement as to the veracity of what is presented there.
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Remington started offering the Model 700 some 60 years ago and make derivatives of it today. Included in the vast majority of these guns is a trigger assembly designed, in the main, by Mike Walker (recently deceased at 101), an engineer and, in the day, a bench rest shooter. For reasons not really known today the trigger is unconventional in design.

The trigger system has a sear with a pivot at the front of the trigger box that houses all of the trigger system. When the gun is cocked a part of the firing pin assembly pushes down on the sear in an attempt to override it. To keep that from happening the trigger piece itself has a leg that props the sear up, holding the gun cocked. The the trigger is not a simple one piece part but has a "connector" on its front edge for virtually the whole height of the trigger box. The connector is a U shaped piece of hardened sheet metal loosely attach (actually floating) on the front face of the trigger. The top part of the U hooks over the top of the trigger piece and becomes the place where the sear engages to keep the gun cocked. The engagement of the sear and connector edge is about 0.020 inches. The bottom of the U piece wraps around a cut in the trigger piece to stabilize the connector on the trigger front face. The connector floats on the trigger piece with the trigger pull level spring driving or holding it to the trigger piece. When the sear falls it pushes the connector off the face of the trigger piece.

In operation once the bolt handle is rolled over to the closed position the firing pin assembly engages the sear and the firing pin is held to the rear by the sear which is propped up by the trigger/connector. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger moves forward so as to reduce the engagement of the sear/connector to zero, releasing the sear to move downward out of the way of the firing pin assembly. Once the sear has fall en off the trigger/connector, the loose connector moves forward off the face of the trigger driven by the falling sear, out of contact with the face of the trigger piece. It is guided by the legs of the U. When the trigger piece is released from the shooter's finger, the trigger piece moves forward to recapture the connector to its face. This connector action was supposed to reduce lock time (??) and make the trigger feel crisper. In general, it works as advertised until…..

If dirt or debris fall into the space between the connect and the trigger piece then over time the sear/connector engagement is reduced. That makes the effort to get the gun to fire become continuously reduced by the building debris to the point where the sear/connect engagement may not be able to hold the sear from releasing the firing pin assembly. This may mean a no-cock situation or the gun firing as the bolt is closing. Such a unwanted firing is dangerous and could seriously hurt someone or even kill them. It could be the shooter or an innocent by-stander. There is also the chance that just touching the gun would be enough to set it off. Or taking the safety off may allow the gun to fire.

In addition there is one documented case of the over travel adjustment screw which pokes through the floating connector dragging on the side of the clearance hole for that adjustment screw and holding the connector off the face of the trigger and reducing the sear engagement randomly.

Just conjecture you say? Watch this documentary:

"Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation,"

It turns out that many lawsuits have been filed over this safety issue. Remington settles them if the lawsuits are indeed their trigger design fault, but all evidence and information is sealed by the courts as part of the settlement. There are records of thousands of these inappropriate firings and casualties and killings. Remington will not admit in public to a design fault, in my opinion, because to fix the millions of rifles using this trigger from over 60 years of production would bankrupt them. Mike Walker, in the early days, many decades ago offered a cheap fix but Remington management chose not to make the changes, maybe for the bankruptcy reason (??). Along the way Remington has made minor changes but never eliminated the connector, the heart of the problem.

So the results maybe a firing of the gun without the trigger being pulled, or at bolt closure, or at removal of the safety, or from a minor bump. What can you do about it?

Supposedly Remington is offering an updated trigger to anyone requesting it (It is NOT a recall). I am not privy to what the changes are so I can not recommend that path. You can install a drop in after market trigger like a Timney or anyone of the many offered. Are they better? Probably, if well made of adequate material and have no connector like design. Which one…I don't know. Or you can get the JARD update kit that replaces the sear and the trigger with new parts without a connector. But a warning: I know nothing of the quality of the the JARD trigger parts and the instruction for assembly are very weak with no pictures and the adjustment instructions are even weaker. The latter fact is important because the port in the trigger box that allowed you to see the sear engagement no longer will line up with the new trigger/sear engagement point. That critical adjustment has to be done blind with the only instruction being to have enough engagement by feel.

Now, you can choose to believe all of this of your favorite hunting rifle or not. I present my interpretation of the listed book and TV documentary as a warning of a possible life threatening safety issue. Believe it and do something about it or kiss it off. I don't care. Just don't attack me for a reproduction of the facts, as I know them to be, as presented in the above sources. Read the book and watch the documentary and judge for yourself.

BE SAFE !


LDBennett
 
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#2 ·
The Remington 700, Don't know, never owned one, However I did own a Model 600 in .308. I know for a fact they would fire without the trigger being touched. Simply moving the safety to fire position would drop the firing pin. I killed a innocent pine tree that way { and scared the crap out of me }.. Contacted Remington, They said send it back , pronto. Didn't know at the time but there was a recall on them. Got it back, never loaded or fired another round through it, traded it off.:eek:
 
#7 ·
gdmoody:

Would a many thousand dollar medical bill or death justify changing the trigger? After reading the listed book I changed out my Model 700 trigger to get rid of the connector. Also I now have a terrible distrust for anything Remington has made since after WWII. It seems they beat Winchester to the Winchester post-1964 cheapening agenda by almost 20 years.

LDBennett
 
#10 ·
gdmoody:

Would a many thousand dollar medical bill or death justify changing the trigger? After reading the listed book I changed out my Model 700 trigger to get rid of the connector. Also I now have a terrible distrust for anything Remington has made since after WWII. It seems they beat Winchester to the Winchester post-1964 cheapening agenda by almost 20 years.

LDBennett
LD, Please read my post again. Two different animals, the Remingtom 700 Muzzle Loader and I would like a timney trigger in one of my AR's. The two sentences had nothing to do with each other.
 
#8 ·
They need to change managment at Remington. Look at the pistol they came out with. The R51. Lots of problems there.

From Remington:

Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.


However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington's performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.

Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700. You will be asked to provide your name, address, telephone number, and the serial number of your pistol.

The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.

We appreciate your patience and support.
 
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#9 ·
The book was an eye opener as to the problems with the Remington guns made after WWII. They apparently decided to maximize profits and design gun with internal stamped sheet metal parts. Their goal apparently was to eliminate any forging processes from their production facility and their guns. Previous design were made up of forged and machined parts and post WWII guns used stamped sheet metal part internally greatly reducing the life of their guns and, according to the book, the safety of some and especially the Model 700/600 that used the Walker trigger design.

The author is a gunsmith expert who investigate sthe failures of guns involved in shooting incidences and reports his result to the court in lawsuits. While employed by the lawyers he is not an advocate for either side but simply reports his investigative results of the mechanic of the gun that caused the incident. It is not win or loose for him but whether he can raise the interest in making gun designs safer and pointing out ones that are not safe which have been revealed in gun incidents that result in harm.

I'll not buy another Remington product and I was looking at the R51 and their 1911...No more.

LDBennett
 
#14 ·
yall must have some bad picks on rems. I've bought all 3 of mine used. My 30-06 has never missed an animal I shot at. My 222 and 223 don't hunt but shoot paper and gongs, if you do your job, they do the other part.

that said I also have son 110's that shoot just the same, I, where you aim.
 
#15 ·
In Remingtons defence they make some really good shotguns. The 1100 auto is one of the best. The 870 Wingmaster is a very good pump. My son has a Remington 1911 and it is also a good gun.

I had a 700 in 30 06 back in the 1970's and never had a problem with it. Knowing what I know now I would have replaced the trigger on it if I still had it. I think they knew they had a problem with the trigger on these and didn't address it. I have no idea what they were doing with that R51. They really messed up there.
 
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#16 ·
The problem is really a design fault that may lead into a situation where the gun fires without touching the trigger. The design allows it and it has happened many times over 60 years of production. Remington has hidden it in settlements where the case and all the evidence was sealed by the court as per the settlement agreement. Remington, to my knowledge, has never fixed the real problem: the connector.

Accidents have occurred when the gun was picked up, bumped, safety clicked off, and other situation where the shooter was not responsible for the gun going off. People have been killed and badly hurt. All this due to a safety design fault that even the inventor agreed existed that Remington refused to fix for pennies.

Search out that documentary and it pretty well lays it out. The book is done in much more detail on the Remington and a few other guns.

"Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation"
"UnSafe by Design: Forensic Gunsmithing and Firearms" by Jack Belk (2014 release)

LDBennett
 
#18 ·
soundguy:

Not necessarily. That is just one of the failure modes of the Remington 700/600 series guns. Dirt can cause the connector to separate from the trigger piece, eventually reducing the sear engagement to or nearly to zero. That can make a simple bump or just moving the gun cause the gun to fire. The safety may hold and the gun not go off with the safety on. But just moving the gun around with the safety off may set it off. The design of the Remington 700/600 is flawed by the connector. Their shotgun's safety is positioned in the mechanism in the wrong place so as to not assure the the safety blocks the gun from going off if dropped. The plastic internal parts also effect the safeness of these guns according to the author of the book.

This is a Remington problem specifically but other manufacturer are not paying enough attention to safety and compromising for economics and convenience sake.The stated purpose by the book's author is to increase the awareness of shooters and the industry that trigger design safety is not being taken seriously enough. Disclaimers in manuals only serves to protect the manufacturer, not the user. "Keep you finger off the trigger, point the gun in a safe direction" is inadequate when the trigger by design is unsafe. That is the lawyers trying to reduce liability. But it has been proven in court many times some of these gun go off on their own due to faulty design for various reasons.

The TV documentary was done to show the viewer how Remington has been hiding these problem with settlements that include sealing the evidence by the court, and how Remington has been hiding the problems from the consumers, and their lack of interest in fixing an unsafe trigger design for the last 60 years. The designer, Mike Walker, was interviewed before his death at 101 and revealed the facts of the design problem, for which he had an inexpensive fix, and how Remington refused to allow his fix to be implemented.

Unless you are a trained gunsmith or thoroughly understand trigger system, the average buyer is in the dark about how safe the gun's trigger system really is. It is documented that the Walker triggers in the Remington 700/600 and other Remington guns is not safe. Avoiding them is about all you can do but what gun to buy, then? I can't tell you without consulting the author or inspecting the design myself. I know triggers but some of these design faults are unique and not obvious to me but would be to the author who reports to the court the mechanical reason for shooting incidents when the gun is in question.

LDBennett
 
#19 ·
LD, since I don't have any Remingtons I'm not familiar with the various models, but a good friend has an older 688 in .243. Is there a reasonably easy way to determine whether this gun is equipped with a Walker design trigger? I'd hate for her to hurt herself (or me) with it.
 
#21 ·
I think you mean an older 788. To my knowledge the 788 has a different trigger/safety system than the model 700. I had 2 AD's with my older (early 70's) 700. It has had the trigger/safety replaced with a Timney. What a difference. 2 & 1/2 lbs. and breaks like glass. And at $130.00, it was money well spent! JMO
 
#20 ·
I had a Remington 700 in 270 from about 1974 until around 2004. It was my deer rifle for about ten years. Very accurate at the ranges I shot (always under 100 yards) because I hunted in heavy woods. Never had any issues. Didn't know about any claimed problems until years after it was sold. I really liked that rifle, but I probably wouldn't purchase another 700 unless I knew the trigger issue was already corrected.
 
#22 ·
rawright54:

I searched my books and the internet and I can not find a 688 but there was a 788. According to the schematics of it, the 788 does not have the Walker trigger with the connector. Is it safe?

After WWII Remington went to stamped sheet metal internal parts as a cost saving thing. Is a stamped sheet metal sear and trigger and other internal parts safe? There apparently is not a bunch of incidents with that model or the author of the book probably would have mentioned it (??). With that kind of non-durable materials used for the trigger I would suggest using caution: load only with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction; use the safety but don't put any trust in in; always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when ever there is a cartridge in the chamber; and do any other thing you would do with an untrustworthy gun.

Remington went cheap after WWII. In my mind all their post-WWII guns are suspect. I have both a pump centerfire and a Model 700 that I only use at the range. If I hunted the Remingtons would be gone. Their plastic Nylon 66 22LR rifle will fire if you torque the plastic stock. Are the rest of Remington's guns safe at all? The book was very enlightening for me.

LDBennett
 
#23 ·
Thanks, both of you. I believe you're right, and it is the 788. I claim a senior moment. She got the gun when her uncle passed away about 5 years ago, and when we took it out to fire, had a heck of a time getting the action working right. I dismantled it, disassembled the bolt and removed the trigger assembly, and gave everything I could reach a thorough cleaning and lubrication. After some head scratching to get everything back inside correctly, it functioned perfectly, and has ever since. Still, one can't be too safe!:)
 
#26 ·
So for we only have one person here who has had an AD with the 700. I've owned several since the 70's, and own one now. Never had a problem with AD's.
 
#29 ·
carver:

It is not that the Walker trigger is unsafe but that it has a propensity to be unsafe. The design is such that if anything goes wrong it will have an accidental discharge. The design is not free of the chance that dirt or debris will fall between the connector and the trigger, reducing the sear engagement which could lead to a bump (maybe a tiny one) causing the gun to discharge. Anything that hangs up the connector (like the overtravel screw that goes through a hole in the connector where the screw rubs on the hole in the connector) can cause the gun to have less sear engagement. Sear engagement is safety.

If you have not seen the documentary below hold you judgment until you do:

"Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation,"

What is frightening is the number of deaths and injuries caused by this trigger design. Remington has for decades settled out of court and had the evidence sealed so that no bad publicity would escape. And then they did not fix the design. The connector itself only slightly enhances the trigger action and should have been done away with decades ago but Remington fears that would reveal the fault and lead to lawsuits that would bankrupt them (my guess, not documented).

I changed my Model 700 trigger with a JARD kit which includes a new trigger, sear and trigger spring (no connector!). It is a simpler design with none of the Walker trigger problems. The connector is deleted.

Finally, per the documentary, Walker does not defend his design as Remington has implemented it and admonishes Remington for their actions that have hidden the problem for decades. Walker offered an inexpensive change many decades ago that would make the trigger safer and Remington refused to implement it probably fearing admitting it had a problem would open the flood gates for law suits.

Just because your Model 700 or other Remington gun with a Walker trigger has not yet had an accidental discharge does not mean it will never have one.

LDBennett
 
#30 ·
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