The Firearms Forum banner

BATF M855 ammo ban??

3K views 27 replies 14 participants last post by  gdmoody 
#1 ·
BATF M855 ammo ban??

Here is my understanding of the BATF M855 ammo ban proposal:

BATF Position:
Since the proliferation of AR15 pistols that can shoot 5.62/223, the possibility of a bad guy shooting at a cop with the armor piercing M855 ammo that can penetrate protective vests, the BATF wants to ban it to the general public.

Argument Against M855 Ban:
The argument against this ban is that so far there is no record of a cop being shot with M855 ammo and it has be allowed by the BATF for recreational shooting for 30+ years by the BATF. M855 is very popular for use by the masses and has been for more than 30 years. This ban is perceived as the liberal administrations efforts at gun control through the ban of a popular ammo. In addition, almost any rifle cartridge, including all lead bullet 223 ammo, will penetrate most protective vests offered today.

My Questions:
I have questions about all of this. Why is an armor piercing ammo one of the most popular AR15 ammo? Paper targets don't need armor piecing projectiles. In fact most ranges don't allow armor piercing ammo as it is a fire risk (steel core hits a rock, makes a spark, and starts a fire…a real risk as I observe it myself years ago). M855 terminal ballistics are reportedly poor on flesh (hunting use). There are many other AR15 ammo choices out there. Why do we care about the loss of M855 which is of dubious use?

I resist any attempts of gun control (ammunition bans are gun control through the back door) but should we waste our effort on this M855 ammo which has little real use to 99% of us when there are many other offerings to feed our AR15's? Is this BATF ban just the "camel's nose under the tent"?

Can anyone answer these questions? I am a target shooter and don't hunt. I have little knowledge of tactical shooting for recreation. I find it hard to believe that loosing M855 ammo will impact anything except that it might set a precedent for for future ammo bans by the BATF(???).

LDBennett
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Preaching to the choir here:
This is left wing, communist back door gun control at it's finest. Banning this ammo is no different than the old Clinton "assault weapon" ban. I am a law abiding citizen who is a legal concealed carry holder. I own several firearms, to include an AR15. Neither I, the AR15 nor the ammo have committed any crimes. Felons commit crimes and are not permitted to possess these items. Why not enforce the current law of cleaning this up, rather than making another law taking away more of my rights?
IF this is about law enforcement and body armor (and it isn't) one should realize that the thugs and terrorist use it also. Remember the "Great North Hollywood Shootout"? Body armor can be defeated in other ways besides the M855 ammo. As a member of the law enforcement community myself, I can attest to this.
Lastly, I am a former service member and combat veteran. I gave an oath to protect against all enemies both foreign and domestic. It has no expiration date. The foundation of the 2nd Amendment is the right to protect from a government of tyranny. We have close to that very condition today.
This is not about deer hunting, Nor about target shooting. It's about the ability of a government to deny lawful people the right to defend themselves from the evil of the world.
 
#3 ·
My thinking is M855/SS109 is popular mainly because it's readily available as contract overrun or stuff that doesn't meet quality standards. (Federal tags their non-spec and overrun stuff as XM855 and puts it on the civilian market.) So...selling it on the open market is an easy way for the factories to get their excess out of the warehouse. Because of that, the price is usually cheaper than purpose-loaded stuff.

Why do I have a bunch of M855/SS109 on hand?
It is cheap to buy.
I like how the 62gr weight performs out of my AR.
FMJ works fine for hide hunting fox & coyote although I do have two holes to patch instead of just one.


Quite honestly, I don't care if it's steel-core or not. Most of my rifle range playtime is on paper targets instead of steel plates so I'm not worried about tearing up steel.
I also have some assorted M193 (55gr FMJ) spec ammo on the shelf, but my rifle really likes the Romanian SADU SS109 for factory loaded ammo so that's what the majority of my stash is.
When I reload it, I'll use whatever bullets I have on hand...lately the supply has been 55gr FMJ but I've got 62gr steel-core on hand too.


My main concern is the same as yours....ANY legislation against a particular ammo is just another version of gun control that we don't need. And yep, one will set a precedent for more.
Remember back when Clinton banned import of chinese 7.62x39? That was my cue to get rid of my SKSs....the cheap ammo source dried up and quite honestly those baby .30s were just plinking toys for me anyway. My AR has been my go-to coyote rifle lately so it's more than just a range toy. It earns it's keep so I want to be able to feed it with what's cheap and works as long as possible.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I don't know much about this ammo. I only have one 223. Its a bolt action for target practice. What I do know is they will not stop at this. If they get away with this ban they will move on to the next.

Don't give an inch. If you do they will take a mile.
 
#11 ·
I don't know much about this ammo. I only have one 223. Its a bolt action for target practice. What I do know is they will not stop at this. If they get away with this bad they will move on to the next.

Don't give an inch. If you do they will take a mile.
^^ THIS IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED FOR THIS ARGUMENT!

Aren't you all sick of your rights and freedoms being whittled away a little at a time very subtlety? Contrast life today with how life was when we were all youngsters. It happened a little at a time.


I too know next to nothing about M855 ammo, but that's beside the point.
 
#5 ·
Any high power rifle round can penetrate a vest,unless you're wearing ceramic inserts in a plate carrier.So the whole argument is meaningless about "why do you want this ammo".
SS109/855 was designed to penetrate ONE side of a helmet at 300m-it is NOT AP.True AP-163gr for instance will sail run through a helmet,vest,vehicle,etc.
I was in the glass industry for years,worked at a place that made BR units(bullet RESISTANT-not proof)I would take home units that were cracked(BR is laminated glass/lexan layers,next time you're at bank drive through-look at corner-it will say1,2,3or4)tested many,even level 4 will fail when hammered by high power rifle soft nose.
856 is also included as it's just 855 tracer-great blaster ammo,bought a bunch for $40 a K because tracer element didn't function.
Long winded I know,this whole thing is the usual regime made up BS,don't fall for it...remember the old story of going for the Jews first-what do I care,I'm not Jewish-after them it didn't matter what you were.
 
#6 ·
I reload all my own ammo for my AR15 so I am not aware of the cost of commercial ammo. I understand that M855 is cheaper and that is the driver to use it. I am amazed that it is so popular considering most ranges would not let you shoot it for the fire danger...It is armor piercing with a steel core. It appears to me that we have put ourselves in a corner by using an ammo (M855 armor piecing) that has more negatives than another choice like FMJ for skin hunting or expanding hollow points or soft points (both all lead bullets) for meat hunting. Of course any ammo will work for target shooting and which depends on the range to the target but armor piecing has to be a last choice for the fire hazard. **

The cat is out of the bag for now and the BATF has reasons, as above, for us not needing it. We still have other choices (maybe not as inexpensive!). But using this inappropriate (but cheap) ammo for uses it was not intended has given the BATF the chance at a precedent setting situation. I really don't like this situation at all for the gun control aspect and precedent that might result.

I guess we have to fight it to avoid the precedent but our argument is sure weak.

LDBennett

** Years ago I observed a steel cored 223 bullet, shot at a rock on the hillside of a range backstop, start a small fire (at first). In just a few tens of minutes it required two bus load of firefighter and a borate bomber as it rapidly expanded to the hill side and a couple more hills around the initial hill. I was amazed at how fast it spread, the size of the are it covered in so little time, and what it took to put it out. Any steel cored ammo can start a brush fire and it is not all that unusual making it a poor choice for any range shooting.
 
#7 ·
The term "armor piercing ammunition" means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

So what happens when bullet manufacturers stop making bullets out of lead?
 
#8 ·
I agree that this is one of those back-door bans that has little factual rational. What's most concerning to me is, once again, the BHO Administration is bypassing the legislative process and making law by fiat. Sounds familiar huh?

I agree with all the posts that the stuff got popular because it was cheap. About 3 years ago the market was absolutely flooded with it, I bought a couple of cases. I don't have an AR (heresy I know) but I have shot a bunch of these in my mini-14 (so I can't attest to their accuracy ;)) The concerns about range-safety are valid. These will punch through a 1" steel plate at 200 yards which my .308 and 30-06 hunting rounds will not.
 
#9 ·
The Tree Huggers and Anti-Gun folks have been trying to ban lead bullets for years, and for the very same reason - 'back door gun control'. Used to live in Komifornia and they have tried to ban .22 ammo and lead shot for decades.

I have - as do many of you - M855 ammo in my stash. My old Colt Sp1 likes the old M193 55 grain FMJs better, and my Bushmaster shoots both about the same. When I reload, I always load to M193 specs because it's cheaper than the 62 grain bullets, and because both rifles shoot it well.

Based only on the matter of principal I oppose that ban on the newer ammo. Two critical points have been addressed here: What DOES happen when ammo factories are forbidden to use lead in bullet manufacture? Secondly, gun owners in America have given in inch-by-inch 'reasonable gun control measures' over the last 50 years, and it's never 'enough'. The final point I'd like to make is that King Obozo does not have, and has never had authority to create law under our Democratic Republic. Those bobble heads in DC better quit cheering him on and begin to act as the representatives of THE PEOPLE in a Democratic Republic, and stop acting as the cheering squad of a dictator.
 
#10 ·
Where else are you going to go, and find gun laws like we have?

That sets us apart, and it sets us up!

I remember a threat from my youth in that "America will fall from within, with out a shot being fired".

Ronald Regan once said; "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.

I'm already seeing this, right here on this forum, and in my life as well. The way it used to be!
 
#12 ·
It turns out that ammo you might not suspect of having a steel core has one. A bunch of the 223 ammo from foreign countries in years past does as does (ready?) Swiss K31 target ammo and many others. There is a cost saving factor for ammo manufacturers in that steel is much cheaper than lead so they stick a core of steel in the bullet and surround it with lead. But in the case of M855 it is advertised and clearly is armor piercing ammo. Shame on us for using it instead the ammo correct for the job. I know it was cheap. But thanks to its proliferation, and if the BATF gets its way, a precedent will have been made for control of ammo by the the BATF. The environmentalist have already banned lead ammo in parts of California's hunting grounds and the federal government has banned lead shot for hunting birds too. The gun grabbers have figured out that without ammo for our guns they don't have to have gun control. More to come!!!

Lead banned! Copper bullets are next.

I listened to several TV News reports on this and boy do they have it wrong. One implied that there would be no ammo for AR15's after the ban. Another did not even state the BATF premise correctly: handguns that shoot 223/5.62, police vests compromised, must ban M855. None mentioned that most police vests will not stop any rifle round whether it comes from a rifle or a handgun.

LDBennett
 
#14 ·
You are correct LD, most rifle rounds will shoot thru a 2nd Chance vest, like the cops wear. Only plate, or ceramic, will stop rifle rounds. However, you are incorrect about the copper bullets. Look at my post #7, solid copper bullets are already considered to be armor piercing, as of 1968.
 
#15 ·
They only argument for the ban I've heard, is referencing the five FBI agents that were shot. Two died. Other than that instance, I don't get where they're justifying the ammo as "cop killer ammo".

Years ago, many, a bank was held up in California by several well armed men wearing body armor. It was a bloody mess for the cops. If they're going that far back, it's because they can't use anything recent to point at. Memory serving, at that time they thought the firearms were full auto. I don't think they were. I think(?) they were semi Ar's.

The original assault rife ban was written in 1994. Check out what guns killed the most people when it was written;

1) Lorcin P25 (pistol)
2) Davis Ind. P380 (pistol)
3) Raven Arms MP25 (pistol)
4) Lorcin L25 (pistol)
5) Mossberg 500 (shotgun)
6) Phoenix Arms Raven (pistol)
7) Jennings J22 (pistol)
8) Ruger P89 (pistol)
9) Glock 17 (pistol)
10) Bryco 38 (pistol)
Source: US Dept. Justice.

More from the DOJ;

* 9.9% of state and 7.3% of federal inmates possessed "single-shot" firearms.
* 7.9% of state and 7.7% of federal inmates possessed conventional semiautomatic firearm.
* 1.5% of state and 1.7% of federal inmates possessed military-style semi-auto or full-auto firearms.

Once more;
State and Federal prison inmates who have ever possessed firearms during ANY crime: (table 2)

* 14.2% of state and 10.6% of federal inmates possessed "single-shot" firearm during ANY crime.
* 10.9% of state and 9.8% of federal inmates possessed conventional semiautomatic firearm during ANY crime.
* 2.5% of state and 2.3% of federal inmates possessed military-style semi-auto or full-auto firearms during ANY crime.

Where are the BG's getting these weapons?

* 48.5% obtained them through illegal sources (theft, drug dealer, black market, etc.)
* 25.2% obtained them from family or friend.
* 19.3% obtained them from retail sale.
* 1.9% obtained them from gun shows. (so much for that supposed gun-show "loophole" being a major source of "assault weapons" used in crime)

Yep, no doubt left...AR's are responsible for all the country's woes. :confused:
 
#17 ·
carver:

Americans are innovative. When CA banned AR's (and other like guns) we figured out how to circumvent the law legally (bullet button, only certain features) such that many semi-auto rifles that might have been on the ban list are configured by the manufacturer for sale in CA. Despite the ban, the AR's are one of the most popular rifles for sale in CA today. CA had the "named"assault weapons ban which was easy to circumvent then the "like features" AW ban which we found a way around. We'll find a way...we always do.

How about some epoxy laced powdered metal bullet? Anyway, even if copper is legally armor piercing (lead banned by CA law for use in a vast hunting area to save the Condors and full copper bullets are allowed) we'll find a way.

LDBennett
 
#26 ·
How about some epoxy laced powdered metal bullet? Anyway, even if copper is legally armor piercing (lead banned by CA law for use in a vast hunting area to save the Condors and full copper bullets are allowed) we'll find a way.

LDBennett
I am 100% not interested in a "frangible" hunting bullet. I want something that will hold together when crunching through bone...and powdered metal isn't that material.
 
#18 ·
1.5 cops shot by AP???In the "Miami Massacre"-5 FBI were shot-3 killed,but the Mini14 wielder was using 55gr SP.
2.North Hollywood bank robbery-both perps were using illegally modified firearms-1-AK,1-HK
3.Checked on 855/109-has a penetrator TIP.
 
#20 ·
Dated Today..

Fortunately for law-abiding Americans, it appears that the audacious attempt on the heart of the Second Amendment by Obama's ATF may end up backfiring.

With lightning speed, opponents of President Obama's bid to ban a popular cartridge used in the top selling AR-15 semi-automatic rifle have won support from 40 percent of the House of Representatives, and Senate foes are also moving fast to build opposition.

House Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Bob Goodlatte of Virginia, working with the National Rifle Association, has collected the signatures of 172 House members in just two days on a letter questioning the surprise proposal targeting the 5.56 M855 used by gun enthusiasts, associates told Secrets Saturday.

And in the Senate, Judiciary Committee Chairman Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa is spearheading a new drive to collect signatures from his chamber to stop the move.

The shocking swiftness at building opposition to the proposal by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is the latest display by many in Congress to leave Second Amendment issues alone, and it also is a testament to sportsmen and pro-gun groups like the NRA to derail the president's gun-control efforts.

Florida Congressman Thomas J. Rooney is launching a legislative counterattack against the Obama end-run around the Constitution. Rooney's H.R. 1180 is called the "Protecting Second Amendment Rights Act."


"The Obama Administration's proposal would unilaterally strip law-abiding hunters and sportsmen of their Second Amendment rights," Rooney said. "Congress has made its intentions clear that this ammunition is for sporting purposes and should not be restricted. We cannot and we will not stand by while the Obama Administration tramples on the Constitution, the rule of law, and the Second Amendment rights of hunters in my district and across the country."

http://tinyurl.com/lm2wfwq

 
#22 ·
Looks like the Homies prefer the cheaper guns to the better made/more costly ones. I guess they will only use the better quality stuff if they can steal it or buy it cheap enough from the 'corner under-the-shirt gun store'. Besides, maybe the chromed Ravens look cooler when you hold them sideways to shoot.

I say there's any EASY way to end crime here in the U.S.: Pass a law and make crime illeagle.o_O +++++++OR+++++++ You can do what WE did in Colorado to end the Drug Problem here: Make crime leagle :confused: Crime has dropped and our streets are much safer now.;)
 
#23 ·
Notice that Midway has SS109 on ad today for $549.99/1000. At a gun show in Sacramento last month it was $189 for 500 and no one was buying. Midway's price represents a 45% overnight increase. Once again BHO is helping the economy by creating excess demand.....
 
#24 ·
Sooo glad Fla has face-to-face laws. Hopefully I'll never have to buy anything from an LGS or on-line again. I don't really care who knows what, but, IMO, it's nobody's business but mine. I compare it to having a middle man buying me a 32oz Dr. Pepper in NY. Then charging me a Fee for bringing it to me.
If anybody knows who's ripping us off again, for the second time, it's Mr. Moody. Memory like an elephant. :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top