The Firearms Forum banner

Question about green tip ammo

5K views 44 replies 18 participants last post by  Deputy Dawg 
#1 ·
I have read that this ammo will go thru a vest.
But what does it do when it hits someone with out a vest?. Does it expand at all? or just goes thru small hole in small hole out.
Does it go thru bullet proof glass? or armored plate?
Mike
 
#2 ·
Why would it expand? It's military ammo. Expanding ammo was outlawed, for the military, by the Hague, over a hundred years ago.
 
#3 ·
Mike - This ammo is non-expanding per requirements of the Geneva Convention. The original M855 bullets were (you already know this) a 62 grain composition. type bullet being made of a thin copper hull, and a 2 part interior (lead and a steel core). The steel core was put in place so that the bullet could penetrate a standard U.S. M1 soldier's helmet at a given distance- in order for the bullet to comply with U.S. performance standards.

The Army's TM (Technical Manual 43-0001-27) for small arms ammunition reads: "PURPOSE: The cartridge is intended against personnel and unarmored targets". At least this is the verbage from my copy of this manual (dated June 1981) and C1 dated 6 August 1982.

So much for "Armor Piercing Cop Killer" bullets. But don't try to convince anti-2nd Amendment people with this - facts only get in the way. I think if you 'googled' "XM855 acceptance testing" you might find records of the initial acceptance testing.
 
#6 ·
It makes a .224 size hole through a human or animal unless it hits a bone,if you're thicker than 8-9",it makes a bigger hole after that because of yaw.One of my nephews(4 tours) got tired of having to dump half a mag to stop islamocockroaches,so he tried to "borrow" an M14 from the Marines,Gunny very gently told him that wouldn't be wise:).
BR glass-you have to reach Level5 thickness to stop it,a Level5 windshield cost about 8k.
AR500 stops it.
 
#7 ·
I've yet to see any talking heads show the size of a typical AR pistol to the size of a typical traditional pistol such as the 1911 or Glock 17. The average person probably assumes all handguns are small and concealable. The physical size of the AR pistol should be enough to ensure it was not meant to be included as a "handgun" in the spirit of the law.
 
#8 ·
Hague.

The Geneva Convention is Prisoners of War, and has nothing to do with ammo. The Hauge Convention set out how wars could be fought, and what was and what was not allowed.
 
#34 ·
You are correct - specifically the Hague Agreements (1899 and 1907) - cover rules of war governing weapons, ammunition and the conduct of military operations. I mentioned the "Geneva Convention" (1864) merely because most people think of it when they think of the rules of war. You properly pointed out that the Geneva Convention focuses primarily on the treatment of civilian and military prisoners (last updated in 1949 after the Nuremberg Trials?) as well as the rights of prisoners and the responsibilities of the captors.

I studied Criminal Law as a youngster, and did quite a lot of case law research. I didn't consider that my posts here would require the exacting verbage that my professors used to require of me when I gave court precedence on specific case rulings. I need to be more cautious of my wording in the future. No offense given or taken.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Did you ever stop to think how absolutely IGNORANT these restrictions are?

It's OK to design a bullet that will penetrate a soldiers helmet and cleanly blow his brains out BUT........GOD forbid you use an expanding bullet that will kill him with one or two shots to the torso. DEAD is DEAD regardless how you get there!

And as far as these rounds go, they are nothing special. I bought 1,000 of them early last year and still have over half left. I favor shooting my 55g fmj rounds through my AR-15 instead since they are more accurate than the green tips and will punch through an old washing machine body just like the green tips do. All this nonsense is doing is creating prices on ANY 223 ammo to go back up in price just as it started coming down a little.
 
#10 ·
As you know, soft body armor vests are mostly for handgun. Most high power rifle ( read center fire non pistol caliber rifles ), will penetrate a soft vest, with or without a mild steel core projectile.

My 2nd chance vest needs a k30 insert to stop 30 carbine. It then wants a second insert ? K47 may bee ( I'm fuzzy on the #) to stop m1 ball , also states if it is not an angle shot, it will likely pass thru both plates with fragments mostly remaining in the soft part of the vest.

Thus, soft body armor and light trauma plates are pretty much handgun protection only... but then we knew that.

You occasionally see the rifle protection vests that have the large 1/2 to 1" thick steel and composite plates that are actually rated for high power rifle..
But even those you have to read. Saw one that was 308 rated, but at ranges over 100yds....

I made the mistake of shooting my spinner target with my 30-06 one time. 150gr spire point, soft tip, and it all but penetrated a half inch non backed up spinner. Mild you I'm sure it is mild steel, but it was able to move.. had that been up against a phone book and a water jug, I'm sure it would have made it thru. As it was, there was only a thin webbing of metal left. Had it not been a soft point hunting round, but ball ammo, it would likely have penetrated too.

Thus the difference in mild steels and other tougher types..

That's why movies of people hiding behind car doors shooting make me laugh seeing sparks fly off the car sheet metal!

I have a couple safari caliber guns, that when shooting solids will absolutely destroy some stuff you might have thought was 'cover'
 
#16 ·
As you know, soft body armor vests are mostly for handgun. Most high power rifle ( read center fire non pistol caliber rifles ), will penetrate a soft vest, with or without a mild steel core projectile.

My 2nd chance vest needs a k30 insert to stop 30 carbine. It then wants a second insert ? K47 may bee ( I'm fuzzy on the #) to stop m1 ball , also states if it is not an angle shot, it will likely pass thru both plates with fragments mostly remaining in the soft part of the vest.

Thus, soft body armor and light trauma plates are pretty much handgun protection only... but then we knew that.

You occasionally see the rifle protection vests that have the large 1/2 to 1" thick steel and composite plates that are actually rated for high power rifle..
But even those you have to read. Saw one that was 308 rated, but at ranges over 100yds....

I made the mistake of shooting my spinner target with my 30-06 one time. 150gr spire point, soft tip, and it all but penetrated a half inch non backed up spinner. Mild you I'm sure it is mild steel, but it was able to move.. had that been up against a phone book and a water jug, I'm sure it would have made it thru. As it was, there was only a thin webbing of metal left. Had it not been a soft point hunting round, but ball ammo, it would likely have penetrated too.

Thus the difference in mild steels and other tougher types..

That's why movies of people hiding behind car doors shooting make me laugh seeing sparks fly off the car sheet metal!

I have a couple safari caliber guns, that when shooting solids will absolutely destroy some stuff you might have thought was 'cover'
It woulda made it thru like butta....trust me
 
#13 ·
A pine tree isn't 80% liquid that reacts to hydrostatic shock,but I know what you mean.When we lived in Me.,we always shot Chinese real steel core(copper washed for $75cs)at a pine around 4' around,one day that 60' tree cracked and fell over-luckily away from the house,wife was pissed.We found a bunch of bullets inside that were just barely deformed.
 
#15 ·
A pine tree isn't 80% liquid that reacts to hydrostatic shock,but I know what you mean.When we lived in Me.,we always shot Chinese real steel core(copper washed for $75cs)at a pine around 4' around,one day that 60' tree cracked and fell over-luckily away from the house,wife was pissed.We found a bunch of bullets inside that were just barely deformed.
Whereabouts did you live?
 
#14 ·
I guess I should have videoed my experimentation with brake rotors. I have access to them by the hundreds and I've fired dozens and dozens of calibers at/through many different numbers of rotors. Green tip 5.56 will easily penetrate 2 and up to 5 non-vented rotors.
The best I've done is 10, yes ten with surplus HXP AP .30-.06.
Sometimes it's a surprise what won't go through; .500 SW through a 22" barrel rifle...no go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zant
#17 ·
some brake rotors are cast iron, some are steel.. but yeah, I agree. I have stood scrap welding steel up and had at it with green tips. i propped up a piece of flat stock with a stick and did a 5 shot rapid fire. I thought i had missed it, it didn't flinch. went up.. had 5 perfect holes in it like you had drilled them..
 
#20 ·
The laws of war don't make sense sometimes. And not everyone is following them anyway. The M855 is a "non-expanding round." The thing that makes it lethal is the shock effect it creates. As mentioned already, you don't see that on a metal plate that's been shot. Most any body armor is not going to stop a center fire rifle round. Steel core or not, it will not matter.
All the hoop-la is back door gun control. "AR pistols" are being sold and it's the perfect chance for the wanna- be dictator and henchmen to use a law banning this bullet due to that use. And creating a frenzy in the process by confusion and lies.
Comparing a conventional handgun to a "AR pistol" is like comparing a sunfish to a tuna. They're both fish but a huge size difference. You can't conceal the AR pistol like a conventional one.
I see no reason to allow the banning of this round because of this. It's only the start of more bad things to come.. That being said, if I was a BG who really wanted to get results I wouldn't use a pistol anyway.
 
#21 ·
I'm amazed that anyone is surprised.

They used to sell "armor piercing" ammo in 7.62x39. I never saw a pressing need for it, but it was available, everywhere. No big deal.

Then some bright boy decided to make an AK pistol. Why? HellifIknow. But they started making them, and now you have a PISTOL that fires armor piercing ammo. That's illegal. Been illegal ever since the KTW "cop killer bullets" BS started. And - guess what - they banned the importation of the 7.62x39 AP ammo.

Can't buy 7.62 NATO in AP anymore, either. Why? Could it possibly be because they chamber the TC Contender/Encore (a PISTOL) in 7.62 NATO?

So now they have the AR pistol. And, Oh My Gawd, they make AP ammo that can be fired in this PISTOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The ammo MUST be banned.

And people are surprised? :confused:
 
#32 ·
While some people don't see the use for a pistol calibered in a rifle caliber like 5.56, what are your [collective] thoughts on SBR's. Really, I don't think that the fact that there is a "pistol" calibered in 5.56 to be that much of a risk, I do see it being sort of the same category, to a degree, that as of the SBR. In some ways, more useful; and without that pesky tax stamp.
If I have a 5.56 SBR with a 10 inch barrel, shooting 5.56, how different will it shoot compared to say a 5.56 pistol, with a 10 inch barrel ? I suspect no difference, really.
Usefulness: Just like a SBR, a 5.56 pistol with a 10 inch barrel is just as useful, if not more useful than the SBR.. If I had to classify a typical 5.56 pistol, I'd say that it's not really a pistol insomuch as it is stockless rifle with a short barrel. It works well in confined areas of a building, for example. One thing I can do with an AR pistol that I can't do with an AR rifle or SBR- I can put it legally into the trunk of my vehicle with the magazine loaded, because it's technically a pistol.
Should the ammo be banned ? Reality is that while it's a pistol technically, for the most part, it's used two-handed, and not really a pistol insomuch as a typical pistol is. It's not really concealable without some serious overgarments. Is the ammo as effective as AP ? Nope, actually less effective because of the shorter barrel length; but this is just a backdoor gun grab anyways; it's not really about the rule of law; if it was about the rule of law- the 2nd amendment would reign and there'd be no other real infringements on the 2nd.
 
#22 ·
I'm starting to think that maybe if guys who buy guns refused to play ball with the makers - in that if somebody decides to build a handgun in a caliber like .223 or 5.56 or .308/7.62 NATO, what if we just didn't buy the product?

Guess there comes a point when we all have to decide if we are going to let the other side keep calling the shots for us. An example is this: somebody - someplace - someday - WILL make a .50 BMG caliber pistol. At that point the Feds will stop the commercial sales of .50 BMG ammo 'because someone makes a pistol in that caliber" and it is a cop killing caliber.

What if we - the gun buyers and owners - make clear to the Industry - don't do it. I know somebody is going to jump up and scream "I just gotta have one!" Sometimes we can be our own worst enemies. I don't have the answer - just hope somebody does.
 
#24 ·
We don't have a problem with industry making firearms that bring down new restrictions on us, we have a problem with allowing our elected officials to act in fear and ignorance with zero consequences. If a "smart" gun is manufactured and that triggers NJ law requiring all guns be "smart" do we blame the manufacturer, gun store, gun purchaser, elected officials, or the voting public? I blame the voters for all of these messes.
 
#28 ·
I want to get back to one of the original questions asked. I have looked at the video of it going through the steel plate and I have read the posts of it going through brake rotors. Is bullet proof glass thick enough or strong enough to stop this kind of ammo?
 
#29 ·
Depends.
There are a zillion grades of "bullet proof glass". Most of the time bullet-proof=bullet-resistant.
I can tell you this; generally this stuff has less penetrating power than .30-06 AP does....a lot less.
 
#36 ·
If we keep up the nitpicking and maybe advance it a level or two, we might be able to be as rude as some gun boards members :)
Actually, we should not be upset at the "pistol" designers, nor their owners; we should accept that they exist, and in all likelihood, they have their reasons for their guns; we should stand together regardless of whether we approve of someone's EBP ( evil black pistol ), or the ammo itself. We should be focused in raising a ruckus with our legislative leaders to block the ATF's infringements.

"United we stand; divided we fall" still has meaning even nowadays; we should not care about the pistols, or that the ammo is 'just 5.56' or 'it's not that good in the first place' ; we should be standing together as gun owners telling the government a resounding "NO ! "
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top