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old double barrel shotgun

13K views 29 replies 9 participants last post by  sharps4590 
#1 ·
I hope I'm in the right spot here. I purchased a very old double barrel, duel hammer shotgun. It has no identifying name on it, but I have been able to discern that the barrel was made in Belgium. I'm thinking its an old Ithica but I'm not sure. The serial number on it is 15834. The serial number is stamped on the underside of the barrels and there is also a stamp that says S P I beside it. Could anyone help me out here please.
 
#4 ·
Remove the barrels and post the markings from underneath the chamber area, I'm sure you will find the letters LEG in a circle or oval. I highly doubt it is a Ithaca unless so marked as such. With a Belgium marked barrel then the rest of the gun is probably Belgium also. Belgium barrels were imported and used by other manufactures but the gun would have been so marked.
 
#5 ·
here's the pictures guys. Sorry for the wait
 

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#6 · (Edited)
The proof marks show black powder proofing, that mark, the ELG with a crown was used since 1893 on black powder arms until the out break of WWI. I would date your shotgun from the late 1800's to around 1911 ( just a WAG ). it is a Belgium shotgun, manufactured by the boat load ( literally ) for export to the US. They were an inexpensive shotgun, sold in hardware stores and by mail order for just a few dollars.is it safe to shoot?. I wouldn't, not knowing the quality of the Damascus. if it is to be shot use very low power, 2 1/2 inch shells or black powder. Value? it is best to tour the various auction sites to get an ideal of what is being asked for like items. A gun such as yours isn't in the bluebook, but I would guess maybe 200 for someone who wanted a decorative item for over the fireplace. Others may have different opinions on it's value or perhaps more information on the gun itself. Good Luck and shoot safe. Had to edit to change the 1853 to the correct 1893. 1893 is what the book reads:eek:. I don't know how that 5 sneaked in there:rolleyes: TKs hrf.
 
#7 ·
It's not an Ithaca, they were box locks and didn't have removable locks.

The crown on ELG in oval Liege proofmark dates it after 1892, and the 12C in diamond is the gauge.

Thousand of Belgian shotguns were exported to USA late 1890s to 1914.

EDIT: I see you beat me to it RJay, but the crown wasn't added to the ELG in oval until 11 July, 1893.
 
#8 ·
Thanks guys. So I take it that it could have been shipped to any seller back then. Wasn't made by any particular company. If you guys could help, Im in need of a couple of good quality hammers and screws, and if possible a good used stock. Mine looks ok in the picture but it falls into 3-4 pieces. We can fix it, but it will never be the same. Not really interested in shooting it , but if I sell it, whoever buys it would probably like to know if it shoots. Now whoever owned this gun tried to do there own brazing on it instead of putting new pins in the side plates. So we have our work in store for us to restore this gun. Its good to know that its not that valuable so we can restore this gun for practice.
 
#9 ·
This gun has seen it's day--and that was decades ago. Even if you do get it in shootable condition, you run the real risk of some kid, maybe years from now, dropping a modern shell in it and maiming himself or others. Glue up that old stock, find a matching set of hammers on Ebay, remove or giring down those firing pins, and hang it on a wall.
 
#10 ·
My old Janssen Son &Co s/s says Belgiums finest laminated steel on top. Very hard to read due to ..."patina". Yeah patina. It has a metal buttstock. Have never shot it and never will. Good wallhanger. Boomer, its going to be hard to find any parts and will be expensive if you find any. Crappy I-phone pics.
 

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#11 ·
I have a old black powder 12 ga. double barrel that belonged to my great grandfather. It is called a Geo. Fisher. It was made in Belgium between 1825 and 1863 I believe. My GGF came over from Prussia in 1871. It has been passed down through the family to me. It was made by Henri Pieper, who later came to America and designed guns for a couple of famous gun manufacturers. The gun is in pretty good original condition with a couple of minor repairs visible. Anybody out there have any knowledge of this gun or it's value. I'm told that there were very few ever brought to America, maybe only around 200 overall. Henri Pieper died around 1900-1905.
 
#15 ·
Pieper did not come to USA and design guns, but did file several design patents in Belgium late 19th century. He died there in 1898, as listed in the article you linked. Thousands of similar doubles with assorted English-sounding brand names were exported by Belgian makers that period

Vorisek's "Shotgun Markings 1865 to 1940" lists George Fisher as a brand name used on Henri Pieper made hammer double imported by Schoverling, Daly & Gales in the 1890s, and below is an 1882 SDG advertisement. The same cut is in the 1884 catalog of Chicago's Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett at two dollars more.

As an heirloom you ancestor's gun may be priceless, but they are mostly used as wall hangers.

Gun Trigger Gun barrel
 
#12 ·
Depat, you'll need to post pictures as outlined in that link Gunclinger posted up above, and you'll probably have much better luck getting some info by starting new thread.
 
#19 ·
It's more important as a family heirloom to me. It represents a poor farm labor that came to this country and worked and raise 9 kids with hardly any education. There was no welfare, food stamps, or unemployment, just a lot of backbreaking work. I don't think todays youth could live through it and survive. He died in 1929, before I was born, but I think hard work ethics has stayed with our family. He was my Great Grandfather. Now I am a great Grandfather myself. My whole family are hard workers, and do well.
 
#21 ·
It is doubtful that you will ever get a appraisal of any value on a double barrel hammer shotgun. I seen plenty of sites, but most will write them off as "Wall Hangers". It just seems as though shotguns are not of any interest to most "gun people". I have had several that were passed down through the family, and were beautifully crafted, but never found anyone interested as a collector of old guns. they are satisfied that they are just scrap metal.
 
#22 ·
I would take exception to this. I can name a pile of German and British makers of hammer double guns, rifle and shotgun, combination guns and drillings. Their products, even at their age, are far from wall hangers. An appraisal can be acquired quite easily. However, you want it done by someone who knows those guns, which does not include most local gun shops. I have more than a few in my toy box, a couple from the 1870's, that are all original, still as tight as Dick's hat band and I use every one of them.

Here's a couple just for grins and giggles....



 
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#24 · (Edited)
The best? Two from the past come immediately to mind as capable of "best gun" makers, Pieper and Lemille. Then there's that little concern known as Fabrique Nationale and another called Francotte. Cockerell is another. Belgian firearms in particular aren't my field interest. Generally I run across them as something that ended up in Germany, Austria or Britain. Consequently I'm incapable of listing them as I can German or British makers. If I knew those 5 off the top of my head then there's probably at least 30 and a lot likely more that I'm ignorant of. Much of the British "best" grade Damascus and Damascus used in Germany and the US was of Belgian origin. Belgian doesn't always equate with a cheap wall hanger or scrap metal...although many do.
 
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#26 · (Edited)
Depat, do you know what part of Prussia? I too am of Prussian extraction. The part of Prussia we're from is now in Poland. I'm fairly certain that when my predecessors left it would have been East Prussia. Prussia covered a lot of territory back then and controlled and owned provinces as far west as the Netherlands and Denmark. 1871 was the year Bismark unified Germany after completely embarrassing France in the Franco/Prussian war. Lots of folks left the German provinces then and shortly before....and continued afterward. It's an interesting history.

After the firm of Schoverling, Daly and Gales passed into oblivion Charles Daly continued a long relationship with a couple overseas buyers and manufacturers. He continued to import German firearms I believe up to WWII. After that I have to plead ignorance. I don't remember when Daly died so if he wasn't personally involved his former firm was.
 
#27 ·
Not sure of what part of Prussia they came from. I now they left out of Bremen, came to NY, then to Eastern Shore of MD. They arrived on Dec. 31st, 1871 and had to wait til Jan. 2nd 1872 to register in, as it was a holiday weekend. Mostly all record from Prussia at that time were destroyed. From what I'm told there were less that 300 of these guns sold in US.
 
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