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A frustrating day

5K views 48 replies 14 participants last post by  soundguy 
#1 ·
A week or two ago picked up a slightly used Tompkins Center Hawken in 50 cal. Ordered some more needful things from Midway that the LGS didn't have.Then had to wait on weather. Weather acting like April around here, and the range doesn't drain too well. So today gather every thing up and off to the range. Never fired a muzzle loader before but have been ruining my eyes reading the black powder forums. Get set up, put a patched ear plug in the barrel,fire off a cap and the plug was ejected so figured I was good to go. 40 grains of Pyrodex, dry lubed patch, .490 ball. Move away from the bench, put on cap. Shoulder weapon, set the trigger, I'm already for my entry into muzzle loading shooting! Get ready for the recoil...squeeze trigger...pfft. Cap goes off and that's it. Another cap, same result. Do it again. Replace nipple. Still no joy. Pour some moose milk down the bore to kill the powder. Bullet puller onto ramrod. Can't get a good enough bite to pull the bullet out. Razzlefrazzit!!!! Was going to shoot some 9mm with my 1911 too but too annoyed. Back home. Disassemble gun. Barrel into deep sink, fill it up with water. Let it soak for awhile. Back to bullet puller, tapping screw into ball with mallet. Not strong enough to turn it. Vise grips on ramrod for a little rightie tightie. Try to pull bullet out. Again not strong enough. Tap tap tap with the mallet on the pliers, finally started getting the ball out. Patch out, water down the barrel to wash out the powder. Swab out with jag and patch. Out to garage and compressed air. Finally dry and oil with Ballistol in and out. Reassembled. Put patched ear plug into barrel. Cap. Shoot the ear plug across the basement. Next dry day is thursday, keeping my fingers crossed. Will be bringing a mallet and a pair of vise grips along. Really want to lose my muzzle loader virginity!
 
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#3 ·
My wife bought me a Hawkins 50 cal some years back for Christmas. I couldn't wait to get to the range to shoot it. Loaded it up and caped it. Just got a Pop. Tried several caps and same thing. Pulled the bullet and repeated this 3 more times.

I took it to the store she got it from and they said they tried it and had no problem. I knew that was a lie so I ordered a spitfire nipple. It fired after that. I also bought some magnum caps. Fires every time now.

Another thing that can help is to pull the cleanout screw or the nipple itself and pour some FFF powder in. This sometimes helps it fire.
 
#4 ·
Hope it goes well for you. Let us know what happens.

I keep a paperclip or pin--something to poke down the hole in the nipple--in my "possibles" box.
 
#6 ·
Hey Bosun,

That happened to me one time. There is a cavity in the breechplug, about an inch deep and .32 to .38 caliber. The oil from cleaning will get in there as well as the passages to the nipple and cleanout hole. It doesn't take much oil to kill your powder. Your .50 caliber jag won't go in there.

After drying the barrel with patches, I take a rifle cleaning rod with a slotted tip to dry out the cavity. Take a .30 caliber patch, fold in half, thread about 1/4" through the slot, and fold the long part of the patch over the end of the tip. You can feel it go into the cavity. Turn the cleaning rod to swab out the oil. It may take 3 or more patches. You may have to adjust the size of your tip and patch. Be careful not to twist the threads off the tip! If you loose the patch in the cavity a .22 caliber brush will grab it.

Dry out the nipple hole with a Q tip, and the clean out hole with a pipe cleaner. Also dry out any oil in the nipple.

I guess some carburetor cleaner and compressed air would be quicker. But I am happy with the above procedure. Glad you found a use for those ear plugs.
 
#7 ·
There used to be a device available to push the patched ball from the barrel. It used a CO2 cartridge. The screw type bullet puller is a pita, but I still use it.
I have a left hand CVA St Louis Hawken. Bought it years ago. Shortly after I got it, my brother got one. We took it out to fire it for the first time and all we got were popped caps. Tried everything. Eventually I got mad and removed the nipple, filled the drum with powder and capped it. When I pulled the trigger fire shot back up through the nipple and still no boom. We took it home and after close examination discovered the hole in the barrel where the drum screws in hadn't been drilled through all the way. We pulled the ball and charge and returned it to CVA. They made good and repaired it.
 
#8 ·
Another trick I was told was to pour an ounce or two of rubbing Alcohol down the barrel and let it drip out the clean out screw and nipple before you go to the range. That will clean out any oil you may have left. Not sure how well this works as I haven't tried it yet.
 
#9 ·
Thanks all for the sympathy and suggestions (G). See how things work out thursday, along with carrying extra tools. Maybe this winter see if the LGS has a gunsmith in the shop..they've never mentioned it and I haven't asked. I see some of the other percussion rifles have a hole drilled and tapped to get a straight shot under the nipple and into the breech for cleaning purposes. Bought the muzzle loader to fiddle with unlike my Zombie AR rifle...and right now it's giving me my full ration of fiddling!
 
#11 ·
You sure went to a lot of trouble. Evidently you have a nipple wrench. As the rifle fired the ear plug, never heard of that one, it seems the flash channel was open. Anyway, remove the nipple and dribble some powder into the cavity, replace nipple and try again then again if necessary. It will probably hang fire but you won't have to go through all the other convolutions. 99 times out of 100 that will work. Sure beats all the work you went through. The hotter nipples never hurt however, with most percussion firearms I've had good results with the original style nipples. A few have been real buggers about the nipple.

Sam and Jake's last name was Hawken, not Hawkins. Probably from the original Dutch of Weehawken.
 
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#21 ·
bosun, I've been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years and I've cleared all but maybe two failures to fire the way I described and helped I don't know how many others in the same manner. That is with percussion rifles. I don't know how you could get more scars, the little prime in the bolster or drum will blow out any fouling blocking the flash channel. I don't remember the last time I had a failure to fire, has to have been decades. That is with percussion rifles. With my flinters I don't remember ever having a failure to fire because of a blocked channel and having to pull the ball and charge but, I'm kinda persnickety. I've had flashes in the pan and failures to fire due to a dull flint or a dirty flint or frizzen but never a blocked channel.

Hawg, it may not be true for you but it's gospel for me. Pyrodex gave me more fits and failures than any other powder I've used. I swore off the stuff after trying it. I believe its ignition temperature is about 200 degrees hotter than black, it's just as corrosive if not more so than black and it never equaled the accuracy of black in any rifle I tried it in, BPC or muzzleloader. I know several who use it with good results and am glad you do also but me, I'll stick with the real thing. For me and my rifles it's more dependable, more accurate, cleans easier, a lot cheaper and always goes off and beyond a shadow of a doubt historically accurate.
 
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#23 ·
For the longest time it was pyrodex only here.

The we got gandor and they carried APP and it might as well be sawdust... I actually gave away the first pound of it i ever bought.

A local pawn shop gets some GOEX in now and then.. but nothing steady. They have had 3 pounds in 2 years... Luckilly one of them was 4f that I needed for my flinter flash pan. Before that I was taking RS and grinding it to a powder.. wasn't great but worked.
 
#24 ·
I'm not a Pyrodex fan either. been times I had nothing else and had to though. I prefer Goex or Elephant brand if I can find it. I'm down to my last pound of Elephant so I have to do something. Triple Seven worked better for me than Pyrodex brand. Still, not as good as the real thing.
 
#25 ·
If I ever really get confident, I've been watching "make your own BP" videos on youtube. Today wet, drizzly, snowy, cold, windy. Stayed home. Way I'm going that pound I bought I can leave in my will (G). Now I need to buy a range box to replace my bag for all of the stuff I've been accumulating. Ir's all good though!
 
#26 ·
No one really has to be without black powder. Gather up some friends and buy a case from one of the many places that sell it. Hazmat is the same whether for a pound or 25 lbs. It adds up to a little more than a buck a pound for a 25 lb. case but, you'll more than save the difference from buying a pound here and a pound there and you'll definitely be way ahead over any of the synthetics. I used to shoot a pile of black powder every year and I bought it by the case by myself. What the heck, I had to put out around $300 back then but I was getting it for $150 less than I'd have to pay locally. That was half another case. Two cases bought the third case in savings. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed but I ain't stupid either.

bosun, a fella can make some really good BP at home but it about has to be a labor of love or do it just to say you did. At least that was the conclusion I came to. However, it sure is good knowledge to have.
 
#27 ·
Hawg how do you draw the blank charge? do you just pour in some powder and ram it down with a patch? Sounds like a good idea.
I have measured it but usually just pour some(40-60 grains or so) down the bore. I leave it as it goes. I don't patch it or bump the butt on the ground. I just keep the muzzle elevated and set it off. It effectively burns any lube out. I haven't had a misfire since I started doing it. For those that are anal about having a clean bore for hunting or not cleaning within an hour of shooting I don't recommend it. :D
 
#28 ·
Hawg, it may not be true for you but it's gospel for me. Pyrodex gave me more fits and failures than any other powder I've used. I swore off the stuff after trying it. I believe its ignition temperature is about 200 degrees hotter than black, it's just as corrosive if not more so than black and it never equaled the accuracy of black in any rifle I tried it in, BPC or muzzleloader. I know several who use it with good results and am glad you do also but me, I'll stick with the real thing. For me and my rifles it's more dependable, more accurate, cleans easier, a lot cheaper and always goes off and beyond a shadow of a doubt historically accurate.
I do like me some Swiss but Pyrodex is what I use the most of. I use it in muzzle loaders, C&B revolvers and cartridge guns including shotgun shells. The only thing I had it didn't work well in was my 63 Sharp's. It fired every time but was like a hangfire or a slow flintlock. With my Hawken ignition is instantaneous.
 
#29 ·
I suspect the trouble with the Sharps was all the distance and all the turns and bends the flash has to make to get to the charge then, if you were using paper cartridges, having enough oomph left to burn through the paper and ignite the charge? That one would be a challenge I expect.
 
#30 ·
Yeah, two 90 degree bends in the firing channel but a paper cutter doesn't have to burn thru the cartridge unless you're going with historically correct late model cartridges. I made mine just long enough for the end to be cut off with very little powder loss.
 
#31 ·
.....and I knew that and promptly forgot.....lol!! I did not know that later paper cartridges weren't intended to be cut.

Hawg, given the.....un-sturdiness(?)....of paper cartridges and what seems to me that they wouldn't always center the bullet, how accurate is your '63 Sharps. Paper ctgs. and BP is one of the few things I've never worked with on old rifles. I'd be curious to learn what you have to say about them.
 
#32 ·
I used wrapping paper and they were sturdy enough to crunch the first band of a ringtail bullet into the rifling. Accuracy was good, one big hole at 100 yards. My load was 80 grains of Swiss 2F with a 490 grain ringtail.
Here is a cartridge loaded. There's just enough sticking out to be cut off to expose the powder. There might be a few flakes on top of the breech block after it's closed but not enough to affect accuracy.

 
#33 ·
Hmm...I neither knew of nor expected that level of accuracy, very interesting, thank you. I've played with paper cartridges in muzzleloaders but that's a completely different critter.
 
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