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Decisions, decisions.....AARRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

8K views 69 replies 13 participants last post by  Rothhammer1 
#1 ·
#35 ·
Roth, feeding that one would be too expensive, but I bet it would be a lot of fun going bankrupt shooting it!

On a side note, a 1903 receiver came in with a horde of 'treasures' my boss purchased from a gunsmith's estate, Sharps, this is the same treasure pile my Sharps action came from, I spent several hours looking through every box, bag and bucket of parts and pieces to locate the missing bolt, and even after its years of who knows what mistreatment and neglect it still slides like wet glass.

I was tempted to build it into a rifle for me but I'm not sure I'm ready to move up to 20th century arms just yet. ;)
 
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#40 ·
Amanda who? ;)

I believe it's a military action, it was unmarked on the upper side save for the serial number and the 1903 date is on the lower portion of the receiver. I can't remember what the bolt handle looked like so I can't answer that one, I found that Sharps action just after finding the missing MS bolt and that kind of took precedent in my thought process.
 
#42 ·
Amanda who? ;)
Knox, I had never heard of her until I ran across what I thought was a movie on Netflix last night. I don't remember the trial and stuff that went on in 2007. I take it, from the movie, that is was a big thing.:rolleyes:o_O

Very nice.

I'd like to find a good, matching 'shooter' in 9mm.
I don't shoot it often, but I do take it out every now and again to let it get some exercise.
 
#45 ·
Lol the Knox thing was a poor joke, I was more focused on the firepower in your picture, best I can recall it had a knob on the bolt handle and it has the magazine but the trigger, trigger guard and barrel are still in limbo somewhere.
 
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#49 ·
Welp, the ammo from Buffalo Arms arrived about an hour ago and it has been an interesting hour. I fired one round with the rifle on the opposite side of a white oak just to make certain it wasn't going to come apart. Everything was fine, paid attention to the bolt opening, examined the brass and all was well. Then to the bench. Fired 3 for group and rifle is about 3 inches high at 50 yards. It might be on or just a tad high at 100 but I didn't check. Then I looked at those 3 rounds. Son-of-a-gun, must have a little headspace issue. Two had the ring that is a sign of incipient head separation and two were fine. I didn't hear or feel anything untoward when firing them but something is evidently amiss.

Being of a curious bent I pulled 3 bullets and weighed the powder charge. 43 grs. of what could be IMR-4895. Now I don't know that, I did say "could be". Only reason for that suspicion is that IMR-4895 is a really popular and common powder for the 8 X 57 and 8 X 56. I dumped a little of my 4895 into my hand and compared them that way and they looked the same but, I've been doing this too flippin' long to not know that a lot of extruded powders are very similar in appearance. Anyway....I dropped two grains from each charge, re-seated the bullets and back to the bench. Hmm...the report and recoil were easily, discernibly different, less. No great shakes but the difference was apparent. Rather than hold center with those 3 rounds I held at 6 O'clock. When checking the target I had a nice, round 1 1/4 inch group that was centered. I didn't set up my bags but kneeled down and leaned against my bench resting my elbows on the bench so I'm not disappointed in the group. The good thing was none of those 3 cases showed an incipient separation ring. Bolt lift was smooth and easy with all rounds fired and all primers showed just the barest beginning of flattening except for the 3 I dropped the powder charge on. They were still nice and round.

Using a sharpened and bent coat hanger I checked the two cases that did show the ring. The place where the ring shows on those cases could be felt with the coat hanger. None of the other cases evidenced any sign.

So, what to do? Easiest and quickest is to pull the remaining bullets and drop the powder charge by 2 grains. I suspect that's what I'll do. Or, I could pull the bullets, neck the cases up to 9mm then set a false shoulder with an 8mm sizing die, fire form them to the chamber and go from there with correct fitting brass. The cases were made using Hornady 35 Whelen brass. If I ever make any, which will obviously be easy to do, when I reset the shoulder setting a false shoulder and fireforming is the obvious thing to do.

Even in the early 1900's chamber dimensions could still be sloppy by today's standards. I know of a few 1908 M/S rifles that will chamber 8 X 57 Mauser ammo. Some could have been re-chambered but I can't believe it would have been done in Europe. They knew the difference between the two cartridges. Even if it's true some were re-chambered it's certain that not all were. Chambers could just be that sloppy back then.

I'm a little disappointed but not dissatisfied. It's an easy thing to accommodate and the rifle shoots pretty good with first try ammo. The ammo also cycles through the rotary magazine like butter...which is quite pleasing....:D Now to get the dies here so some real fun can be had!!!
 
#50 · (Edited)
Gun Firearm Trigger Rifle Machine gun
Welp, the ammo from Buffalo Arms arrived about an hour ago and it has been an interesting hour. I fired one round with the rifle on the opposite side of a white oak just to make certain it wasn't going to come apart. Everything was fine, paid attention to the bolt opening, examined the brass and all was well. Then to the bench. Fired 3 for group and rifle is about 3 inches high at 50 yards. It might be on or just a tad high at 100 but I didn't check. Then I looked at those 3 rounds. Son-of-a-gun, must have a little headspace issue. Two had the ring that is a sign of incipient head separation and two were fine. I didn't hear or feel anything untoward when firing them but something is evidently amiss.

Being of a curious bent I pulled 3 bullets and weighed the powder charge. 43 grs. of what could be IMR-4895. Now I don't know that, I did say "could be". Only reason for that suspicion is that IMR-4895 is a really popular and common powder for the 8 X 57 and 8 X 56. I dumped a little of my 4895 into my hand and compared them that way and they looked the same but, I've been doing this too flippin' long to not know that a lot of extruded powders are very similar in appearance. Anyway....I dropped two grains from each charge, re-seated the bullets and back to the bench. Hmm...the report and recoil were easily, discernibly different, less. No great shakes but the difference was apparent. Rather than hold center with those 3 rounds I held at 6 O'clock. When checking the target I had a nice, round 1 1/4 inch group that was centered. I didn't set up my bags but kneeled down and leaned against my bench resting my elbows on the bench so I'm not disappointed in the group. The good thing was none of those 3 cases showed an incipient separation ring. Bolt lift was smooth and easy with all rounds fired and all primers showed just the barest beginning of flattening except for the 3 I dropped the powder charge on. They were still nice and round.

Using a sharpened and bent coat hanger I checked the two cases that did show the ring. The place where the ring shows on those cases could be felt with the coat hanger. None of the other cases evidenced any sign.

So, what to do? Easiest and quickest is to pull the remaining bullets and drop the powder charge by 2 grains. I suspect that's what I'll do. Or, I could pull the bullets, neck the cases up to 9mm then set a false shoulder with an 8mm sizing die, fire form them to the chamber and go from there with correct fitting brass. The cases were made using Hornady 35 Whelen brass. If I ever make any, which will obviously be easy to do, when I reset the shoulder setting a false shoulder and fireforming is the obvious thing to do.

Even in the early 1900's chamber dimensions could still be sloppy by today's standards. I know of a few 1908 M/S rifles that will chamber 8 X 57 Mauser ammo. Some could have been re-chambered but I can't believe it would have been done in Europe. They knew the difference between the two cartridges. Even if it's true some were re-chambered it's certain that not all were. Chambers could just be that sloppy back then.

I'm a little disappointed but not dissatisfied. It's an easy thing to accommodate and the rifle shoots pretty good with first try ammo. The ammo also cycles through the rotary magazine like butter...which is quite pleasing....:D Now to get the dies here so some real fun can be had!!!
Sharps,

Great and detailed post!

I guess I was lucky with mine, I had heard many accounts of the very sort of difficulties you described regarding MS rifles and potential differences from one example to another.

For my M1910, I researched (pre - internet) much, consulted with the 'ol' boys' who had reloaded for years, got a two die set from RCBS and some .35 Whelen brass (don't recall whose, it's written down).

One pass through the sizing die, cut to length, and my new brass precisely matched every case dimension and angle of new, unfired DWM531 rounds that had been in the case with the MS (fireforming gives a 'sharper' shoulder, but does not relocate it).

I used 42 grains of IMR4895 (the MS1910 barrel is marked;(43 gr. Cordite Max.). For the 9.5 x 57, Hornady 3715 (270 grain RN) is a near perfect match (dimensionally) for the steel jacketed RN originals (DWM531).
 
#51 ·
I didn't have any such difficulties with my 1903, it worked out pretty good and pretty quick regarding loads. Quite as you described your 1910.

You're correct, fire forming won't reset the shoulder on rimless cases. That has to be done on the press. Then they can be fire formed to a particular chamber. The more I think about it the more I believe I might just do that. Two passes per case, one through a 9mm then back to 8mm die then just load and shoot the cartridges and it's done and the cases fit properly.

I'd prefer a 200 gr. bullet but in this country evidently they are about non-existent. The 170 gr. bullet worked well through the magazine and it appears it's going to shoot well with a little tinkering so that may be my forced choice. There's always 200 gr. cast bullets and that's in the plan.
 
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#53 ·
First thing I did immediately upon getting the rifle home. That's always the first thing I do when acquiring an older rifle.
 
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#55 · (Edited)
Nsahh...no need for that. You 'n me kinda hit it right off but there's no way either of us can know the others.....procedure(?)...sequence of events(?)....lol....when we get a new firearm or exactly the experience level.

The bore slugged a bit big, like .3245-.325 but that ain't bad and is certainly workable. Certainly not like a lot of old 9.3's you can successfully use .358 bullets in.

I've never really been bit buying a rifle off GB, GI or GA but have had 3 or 4 surprises of rifles not being chambered for the cartridge they were advertised as. Frankly, for me, they were a lot more interesting and fun that way and I learned a lot in the process of working up brass and loads. Those experiences ingrained it in me to always slug the bore first. Maybe it's fear....lol!! It's also a heck of a lot of fun when someone asks "what cartridge is that rifle for" and you can honestly say "I don't know"....or "this one" as you hold it up for them to see. Usually the comment goes something like "ok, I can see it but what is it"? I still don't know...but I make it from 30-30 WCF or 9.3 X 74R or 11.15 X 60R or 30-06 or 30-40 Krag or whatever works......:D I know....I am bad...
 
#56 ·
A little progress!! 170 Hornady RN bullets arrived Tuesday so I had something to load. I did expand the necks on 10 cases to 9.3 then back to 8mm and set a false shoulder. Loaded them with 41 grs. of IMR-4895 and "fired for effect". First two cut each other at 50 yards with the 3rd maybe an inch out of the group. Fired cases were perfect, nice, round primers flush with the head and buttery smooth bolt lift, life is good!

Couldn't stand it so I found this mold from Tom at Accurate and it's ordered. Driving bands as drawn but the nose not tapered. Instead it is parallel sided at .310-.312. I like a bore rider.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=33-205T-D.png

Roth, for what it's worth, if you have a need, Mid-South Shooters Supply has 6.5 Hornady, 160 gr. RN in stock. I ordered a box....yesterday or the day before. Haven't been able to find them for a long time.
 
#57 · (Edited)
I have no need for 6.5, but others who read this thread may.

I used Hornady 3715 (.375 - 270g RN) when they could be found, more recently bought a load of 'blem' (there's nothing wrong with them) 270 grain RN from Midway that are identical to H3715. When seated to the proper depth, the cannelure on 3715 lines up perfectly for a light crimp of reworked .35 Whelen brass for a near perfect reproduction of DWM531 (9.5X57, or .375 Nitro Express Rimless).

I just watched a DVD of a Mannlicher Schoenauer movie with Clint Eastwood in it. I had found stills of 'White Hunter. Black Heart' on the 'net, and ordered a copy (cheap, it's a 1990 film) hoping for a few scenes that would showcase MS rifles.

I was not disappointed!

For one thing, it's a pretty decent flick (Eastwood directed, not long before 'The Unforgiven'). The true stars to me were the (not one, not two, but) three Mannlicher Schoenauers, all in the 'British Takedown' format.

Two are purchased early in the film by Eastwood's character. While examining a fine double gun at a shop, he says "We'll take two of these, and two of these smaller ones - the Mannlicher two fifty sixes - and that's to shoot for the pot, so to speak."

They are shown rather well onscreen for a few scenes, particularly when the primary characters go on safari for the first time with their new guide. Clint is blasting away at some kudzu or something with one MS takedown as his writer buddy and some British fella are each holding MS takedowns and moving them about as if deliberately showing them to the camera at every angle. Eastwood's appears to have the proper steel buttplate, the other two have had recoil pads hacked in.

Maybe I should start a 'gun porn' thread to discuss everyone's favorite gun flicks?
 
#58 ·
Hmmm...that's more than a little interesting, about the M/S in the movie. I'll have to find the movie.

I think there was a thread about favorite movies that sort of starred firearms...but it may also have been on another board. I'd have to think about that one, usually don't watch a movie just to see a firearm. It was pointed out to me that in one of the early scenes in "The Legend of Jeremiah Johnson" his Indian nemesis, the one who said "you fish poorly" was carrying a combination gun when first seen on the horse. By golly, that's right!
 
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#62 ·
Wow...too rich for my blood for bullets!! One box of them almost buys the bullet mold. By the time shipping and tax is added I bet it more than buys the mold! I do appreciate the link as evidently I missed seeing them.
 
#65 ·
For a lot of bullets I can drive up to Sierra and pick through their seconds barrels. Don't do that as much as when I lived 50 miles from them but it's always an option except they don't have .323, 200 gr. RN.

slayer, those PPU bullets, they're spire points? No picture but that's what the description says. I know sometimes their description and/or picture doesn't jive with what the item is. Their 9.3, 285 gr. PPU bullets don't. Spire points won't cycle through the M/S rotary magazine. At least I haven't found any that will.

Once the mold gets here I can cast them for less than a penny a piece plus the gas check which is usually about 3 cents. That and I really prefer cast anyway....
 
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#67 ·
My 1903 will accept and feed two cartridges in the magazine when loaded with 140 gr. spire points. I didn't play with it a lot but I never could get more than that to work. A box of 160 gr. Hornady RN should be here today and I know they'll feed through the 1903. Were the bore better on that rifle I would have a cast load.
 
#69 ·
I'll tell ya what, I have been most blessed the last couple days. Yesterday the 160 gr. Hornady RN bullets arrived, (if a bullet can be called sexy that one is), and I had to load a few. Picked an IMR-4350 load of.....well horse manure....now I forgot the weight. Anyway, seated them to the cannelure which matched Hornady's OAL and crammed Otto Schoenauer's gorgeous rotary magazine with a full compliment of cartridges. They fed like a hot knife through butter. It was cold & windy outside, I was tired and didn't feel like walking out to the range, setting up a target and all that so I just fired one out the back door at a stump. I hit the stump and I believe the bullet went completely through as I saw leaves and stuff fly up on the other side. Old stump, probably pretty soft. When it warms up a little I'll put them on paper.

Then today the flippin' mold for the 8 X 56 M/S from Accurate Molds arrived. Tom's web site said 3 weeks lead time. I order that thing this past Saturday. 5 days for a custom mold? Good grief...it would have taken that long or longer to get an in stock factory mold from Mid-way, Graf's or Mid-South!!!!!!

Bad news is I feel a head cold coming on so with the weather and this head full of.....you know....it may be a while before I get some bullets cast, loaded and can put them on paper. Times like this I could almost wish I still imbibed adult beverages....sure would like to stick my head in a bucket of Napoleon Brandy and suck deeply.
 
#70 ·
I'll tell ya what, I have been most blessed the last couple days. Yesterday the 160 gr. Hornady RN bullets arrived, (if a bullet can be called sexy that one is), and I had to load a few. Picked an IMR-4350 load of.....well horse manure....now I forgot the weight. Anyway, seated them to the cannelure which matched Hornady's OAL and crammed Otto Schoenauer's gorgeous rotary magazine with a full compliment of cartridges. They fed like a hot knife through butter. It was cold & windy outside, I was tired and didn't feel like walking out to the range, setting up a target and all that so I just fired one out the back door at a stump. I hit the stump and I believe the bullet went completely through as I saw leaves and stuff fly up on the other side. Old stump, probably pretty soft. When it warms up a little I'll put them on paper.

Then today the flippin' mold for the 8 X 56 M/S from Accurate Molds arrived. Tom's web site said 3 weeks lead time. I order that thing this past Saturday. 5 days for a custom mold? Good grief...it would have taken that long or longer to get an in stock factory mold from Mid-way, Graf's or Mid-South!!!!!!

Bad news is I feel a head cold coming on so with the weather and this head full of.....you know....it may be a while before I get some bullets cast, loaded and can put them on paper. Times like this I could almost wish I still imbibed adult beverages....sure would like to stick my head in a bucket of Napoleon Brandy and suck deeply.
Hornady 3715 (270g RN) also has that perfect fit to the cannelure when used for 9.5X57 MS (DWM531).
Metal Ammunition Brass

Handloads for Mannlicher Schoenauer 9.5X57 : As passed through dies, top. Fireformed, bottom.
 
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