The Firearms Forum banner

Sharp Rifle

3K views 23 replies 5 participants last post by  sharps4590 
#1 ·
Hi, I am new to this forum and am not sure where to put this so I hope I picked the right spot. I was looking at a Sharp rifle at a small gun shop where I live. It is made by Lawrence and there are two different dates on it that you can see in the pictures. I did not see any serial number on it unless there is one under the barrel stock. I did not have it apart. It is at the store. It is a small gun shop so I don't know if his prices are right. He is asking $1000.00 for it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
maxrocky
Gun Firearm Trigger Rifle Shotgun
Gun Firearm Trigger Shotgun Revolver
Auto part Metal Pipe Muffler
Product Metal Pipe Brass Cylinder
Metal
Gun Trigger Revolver Shotgun Gun barrel
Gun Trigger Firearm Revolver Shotgun
Wood
Metal Antique
Gun Firearm Trigger Rifle Shotgun
Gun Firearm Trigger Shotgun Revolver
Auto part Metal Pipe Muffler
Metal
Gun Trigger Revolver Shotgun Gun barrel
Gun Trigger Firearm Revolver Shotgun
Wood
Gun Trigger Firearm Revolver Shotgun
Gun Firearm Trigger Rifle Shotgun
Auto part Metal Pipe Muffler
Product Metal Pipe Brass Cylinder
Metal
Gun Trigger Revolver Shotgun Gun barrel
Gun Trigger Firearm Revolver Shotgun
 
See less See more
10
#2 ·
I don't know what I hit for so many of the same pics to come on but here are more of the gun.

maxrocky
 

Attachments

#3 · (Edited)
It looks like you have a New Model 1863 Sharps saddle ring carbine, converted post Civil War to fire metallic cartridges - in this case most likely a 50/70. Just the barest upper and lower portions of the extractor are visible in the photos - an extractor was part of the percussion to cartridge conversion. The Lawrence pellet primer feed mechanism has been left at least partially intact, but would serve no purpose in firing a metallic cartridge. Sorry to say I can't help you with a valuation but I'm sure members who can will be along shortly. Welcome to TFF from Sitka, Alaska.

p.s. to above. Checked a couple of gun auction sites for '63 NM 50/70 conversions. Found one at $2495 and another at $3500, both seem to be in about the same overall condition as the one you've pictured. You should be able to find a replacement hammer screw at Dixie Gun Works (www.dixiegunworks.com).
 
#8 ·
At the time that rifle was made, the Civil War period, it fired paper cartridges of the kind to be loaded from the breech. You can look them up easily with a search. I'm at a bit of a loss at this point, regards the pellet priming or musket cap. I want to remember some did indeed have a nipple and use a percussion musket cap while others were altered for the Lawrence priming pellet mechanism. Hopefully McKenzie can confirm that. Other than the way in which the cartridges are ignited it is basically the predecessor to the 1874 Sharps. There is a difference in some kind of a plate on the breech block but I can't remember the details. The lack of a serial # I am sorry I can't help with. Guess I need to dig out Seller's book again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rothhammer1
#9 ·
Thank You very much for the replies and help. Were the only Sharps used in the Civil War marked US and the ones without US were just commercial ones? I saw a Sharp for sale on *********s that looked like the one I have posted. That was for sale for $600 unless there was something different about it. Please continue with your help.

Thanks,
maxrocky
 
#10 · (Edited)
The serial numbers of New Models 1859, 63 and 65 were stamped on the receiver tang as well as the underside of the barrel. With regard to the GB Sharps @$600 I'd venture to say that's the opening bid and not the sale price.

p.s. to above. The pellet primer system utilized on the '59 through '65 incorporated a cutoff which would allow a standard musket cap to be placed on the breechblock's nipple.
 
#11 ·
Thank you very much for the information and I hate to be a pest but I bought the Sharp & it has the 2 dates on it that are in the pics. This is the new 1863 model or is it the 1863 conversion? There is no serial number on the tang. Could it be underneath the barrel on the forearm? Would you say this gun is worth $2000.00 in this condition? Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all of you!

Thanks,
maxrocky
 
#12 ·
First off, you're certainly not being a pest. The conversion would've been done post-Civil War, I believe circa 1872. Given the use this carbine would've seen during the CW, plus probable use on the frontier (or foreign country) after its' conversion to fire metallic cartridges, I can see a lightly stamped tang number wearing thin and eventually disappearing through continual handling and use, cleaning and so forth. As to the number stamped on the underside of the barrel, the carbine would've been stripped down into its' component parts during the conversion process, which would've entailed milling an extractor cut in the receiver, fitting an extractor, breechblock and firing pin, modifying the hammer nose, disabling the pellet primer feed, etc. A new barrel may have been installed rather than lining and chambering the original, but can't say for certain. In any event, the original barrel would've been removed during the conversion process, and either replaced or lined/chambered for a metallic cartridge - likely 50/70. As to value, if the bore's in relatively good condition - no major pits etc., the firing pin's intact and the lockwork's in working order, I'd say the carbine would easily be worth $2000. As noted earlier, a replacement hammer screw can be had from Dixie Gun Works. Hope that helps. Merry Christmas to you and your's, and all the best for the coming New Year.
 
#13 ·
Thanks again for all your help. What book do you have on the Sharp rifle? I wouldn't mind buying one. I have one more question for you. I am guessing my Sharp rifle had the barrel lined? Before it was lined it was a smooth bore that fired the paper cartridges? Merry Christmas & Happy New Year & thanks again.

lumax
 
#14 ·
Before it was relined or perhaps re barreled it would have been a .52 caliber rifled barrel, the Government converted them by installing a breech block that had a firing pin, modifying the hammer nose and adding an extractor and chambering them for the new (at that time ) .50-70 government cartridge but they for some reason didn't remember that the bore was .52 not the .50 that the bullet they chambered it for used.

As you can imagine accuracy was not very good and the armory had to reline or re barrel all of the ones that they had previously converted.

Many of them were sold as is as surplus and converted to cartridge use by civilian gunsmiths and retailers so yours might not be chambered in .50-70.


Here is what it would have used before the conversion to centerfire metallic cartridges.
 
#15 ·
As far as I know the definitive book on Sharps firearms is Frank M. Seller book, "Sharps Firearms". Should be able to find one fairly reasonable. Well....maybe not. I looked very quickly and most I saw were north of a "C" note.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rothhammer1
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
I just bought a book called Blue Book of Antique American Firearms by S.F. Fjestad & John B. Allen but I didn't see my model inn there. The patent marks on mine are 1852 & 1858 but on the other side of the gun there is 1848. So I am assuming the gun was made in 1848 and the patent was put on later. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
lumax
 
#17 ·
I just bought a book called Blue Book of Antique American Firearms by S.F. Fjestad & John B. Allen but I didn't see my model inn there. The patent marks on mine are 1852 & 1858 but on the other side of the gun there is 1848. So I am assuming the gun was made in 1848 and the patent was put on later. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
lumax
The Sharps 1848/49 had an entirely different configuration receiver and primer feed system. Many years ago I was involved in the restoration of Sharps 1848/49 serial number 14, so I'm sorta familiar with the rifle. Your carbine started life as a New Model 1863 saddle ring carbine, possibly a '65, essentially the same configuration as the NM 1859 but without a patch box, and converted to metallic cartridge post-CW.
 
#19 ·
Often published books on the value of firearms are not always very accurate. They are one....person, editor or teams opinion of value probably based on what a firearm brings at a few auctions and not all variations are or can be taken into consideration. First off there is the time issue from when the book is compiled, it goes to print, is distributed to jobbers then finally on the shelf to the consumer. Tastes and desirability can and do change rapidly. Secondly they don't take into consideration regional or local valuations, that is what particular firearm is more valuable in one area as compared to another. I don't know how that could be accomplished. You've also seen that not all firearms are listed and frankly, I don't know how they could list them all. The book would be the size of a small desk. The best a firearms valuation book can do is similar to a financial statement, a picture of values at a particular moment in time.

If a person wants a current value estimate of a particular firearm what I do is browse the auction and for sale sites. They won't be exact either but will give a person at least a current range of value. I don't have much confidence in "book value".
 
#20 ·
Thank You very much for all the information. You have to forgive my ignorance because I do not know anything about the sharp rifles. From what I understand it was make in 1848 and it was converted in 1863 & the patent applied at that time? Then was it named the New Sharp? What would you say the ball park value of this gun is? Thanks again.
lumax
 
#21 ·
nmckenzie said in post #3 that he found two in about the same condition as yours and listed the prices. I can't do any better than that.
 
#22 ·
No your rifle wasn't made in 1848, parts or features with patents pending that were granted by the patent office in 1848,1852 and 1858 were used on this rifle.

The rifle itself was made during the Civil War and it was converted after the war to fire metallic cartridges.
 
#23 ·
Yes, Mckenzie has been a big help & is very knowledgeable but when I first posted the rifle I didn't put any dates down. So now with the new information I figured maybe I didn't explain it right & it could be worth less. Thanks for all the help.

lumax
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top