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Working up a 38 Special load - xtreme 125gr + titegroup

11K views 18 replies 9 participants last post by  yep380 
#1 ·
Hey Guys,

Would appreciate any thoughts here on a 38 special load I'm working up.

I loaded up 5 rounds ea using Xtreme 125gr FP copper plated.

OAL 1.445"

Titegroup is touchy, so I went w/.1gr increments. Started w/ 3.4gr of Titegroup up to 3.6. Shooting these out a S&W 438 snub. FPSs are 5 round avg.

3.4gr FPS: 453
3.5gr FPS: 473
3.6gr FPS: 487

accuracy was fair, not great, at 7 yards. No pressure signs whatsoever on the cases. Honestly, these felt anemic.

Lyman's 50th shows a load of 4.5gr with a 125gr JHP and an OAL of 1.470". Knowing that TG gets spiky real fast, I'm thinking that's too much for what I'm doing. Hodgdon has a cast LRNFP load OAL 1.445 using 3.2gr min / 3.8gr max - the Hodgdon data is out a 7.7" bbl.

My thoughts are to 3.7, 3.8, 3.9 and see how that goes. Maybe load some up at 4.0gr but only shoot 'em if the others don't do much?

Anyone have experience with these bullets and titegroup to share?
 
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#7 ·
What SteveM said. The loads you are using SHOULD feel anemic, they most certainly are. Less than 500 FPS, I'm surprised they exited the muzzle at all. A 125 gr bullet, whether lead or jacketed should be no less than 800 to 850 FPS.
IF I SHOT A LOAD OUT OF ANY OF MY REVOLVERS (38) spcls at less than 500, I would have to apologize to them.
Actually all kidding aside, I'm surprised you didn't experience some blow-by or soothing or even primer problems.
I would not shoot any more of them for that fear.
I'm not familiar with the mod smith you are using, but if it won't handle ANY weight bullet at 800 to 850 FPS I wood trade it for a pellet gun.
Speedem Up.

UF
 
#8 ·
Appreciate your reply. Hope you don't mind me asking a question.

I'm shooting out a snub 1 7/8" revolver. I shot some factory jacketed ammo and it was doing 680 FPS. I fired some Speer +P (130gr?) which was moving at 794 FPS. Remington HTP +P was at 780 FPS.

The reason I bring that up is my factory +P ammo isn't even doing 800 FPS. That being the case, should I being loading up that hot?

And yes, I've got some hotter loads ready to go and check out. Just working up slowly.
 
#9 ·
yep380
Are you running these loads over a chrono? I can't imagine any +P ammo even 38spcl moving at less than 850 to 900FPS. If not, what the hell is the +P to be. Normal 38 spell loads for as long as I can remember were never loaded less than 800FPS and I have loaded for revolvers and autos such as my S&W mod 52 that only shoots flush wadcutters.
As I said I am not familiar with your frame and suspect it is one of the latest models out by Smith. They have had a bad spell with their revolvers since the discontinuing of the mod 19s and 66s. When they dropped the pinned barrels their guns were not nearly the guns they had always been famous for and their first line of autos in 9MM and 45ACP were dismal failures.

Having said that, I need to do some checking on the frame and model you are using. But I cannot imagine ANY decent revolver that will not handle 38 of any weight from 800 to 850 fps. I WILL do some checking and get back to this thread. Although it will be a few days. I have to go into the hosp for tests and treatments for my cancer but if all is well (LOL) I should be back here by Mo or Tue

Til then take care and perhaps some of the other very knowledgeable guys here can chime in to help.

UF
 
#10 ·
First off: I hope you're kickin' cancer's *ss. Prayers my friend.

Using a chrono.

I'm shooting a 438 snub, I think it was made in the last 7 or 8 years, but I don't know for sure. I also have a mid 70s Model 36 snub, same size bbl and it shoots the same as far FPS - I'm pretty sure it's not the guns fault. The 438 can handle the +P loads (at least it's rated for 'em).

My understanding is ammo manufacturers have toned down their +P offerings in recent years.
 
#11 ·
Yep,
The last .38 spl loads I loaded were 4.5gr of TiteGroup and 125gr flat point plated bullets (Berry's), 1.450 OAL. I don't have a chrony so I can't say how fast they were moving, but I noticed no signs of high pressure and they didn't seem "hot" when I was shooting them. Even if you're not comfortable going up to 4.5gr, you should certainly be safe to bump it up a bit from where they are now.
 
#12 ·
Yo

Either model should handle loads at 800 to 850 without sweat.

The guns of S&W after the pinned barrel models wear out and get the shakes faster than any they have made in the past. But to shoot those loads that have been loaded for man years will NOT hurt them.
I'm still going to do more research for everyone interested in these loads as so many people are loading and shooting the 38.

Right now I got the upper hand on the Big C but it is always a game of chance every time I go back. But I think you from my heart for the kind words and most certainly for the prayers.

Stay tuned I WILL be back with some more definitive info prob Mo or Tue at the lates

UF
 
#13 ·
Yeah, and I'm reading various forums and people are using anywhere from 3.4gr to 4.5gr. That's quite a range for titegroup.
FWIW and just an aside; don't use any load data you may get from any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website or gunshop guru. While they may just trying to be helpful, it's your gun and your fingers. There are many places to find good, safe, reliable, tested load data (I get 99% of my data from published manuals) and if you are anti-text, powder manufacturers have reloading data on their web sites...
 
#16 ·
Well guys, I fired off 3.8, 3.9, 4.0 and 4.1gr loads today. Still not moving very fast, just a touch over 600FPS. Accuracy was good and there were no signs of excess pressure.

I've got 5ea loaded at 4.3, 4.4 and 4.5 and will check those next time I get a chance. From the looks of things, that might not be 'til two weeks from now.
 
#17 ·
I used what I seem to remember a 115 gr Speer HP bullet, lightest one they made for 38 in the early 70's. I shot them in a Colt Trooper .357 MKIV with a 4" revolver. It was a carry gun when I drove trucks for a living. No longer recall the powder either but it was max'ed out, only handgun load I ever did that with. I recall reading back them about 38 loads we couldn't get, 38 Treasury loads. My though was to try and duplicate them. I don't know that I ever did or not but that was a awsome load and no way would I shoot it out of a standard 38.
 
#18 ·
yep380

Got my treatments and more tests. GGGRRRRRR.

Anyway, i had a chance to look at loads and test some of my ow. As said, I am NOT telling you or anyone else what to load that is your decision and yours only. However I don't think you have to re-invent the wheel either. This info is merely for study.

I checked several of the loads you mentioned and out of 4" and 1.5" Smiths mod 19s and 66s.
Me thinks your chromo has been fooling ya.
I checked the rounds you mentioned beginning with 4 gr of Titegroup and with either my Crony or my magneto speed chronograph. At 4. out of the 1.5" 19 it is 790 fps and out of the 4" barrel 19 and 66 it is 830 to 850 every time. I tried the 5.5 gr and they are 869 to 880 fps. This is within 15fps with both chronos.

Also checked +P loads and cannot find ANY that are under 1050 fps and up to 1200 fps. Thats why they are +P, they are hotter than normal 38 loads.
ALL loads of 3.5 gr were in excess of 700 fps.

Question also.

Why would you choose Titegroup for your pistol loads in the first place.

UF
 
#19 ·
yep380

Got my treatments and more tests. GGGRRRRRR.

Anyway, i had a chance to look at loads and test some of my ow. As said, I am NOT telling you or anyone else what to load that is your decision and yours only. However I don't think you have to re-invent the wheel either. This info is merely for study.

I checked several of the loads you mentioned and out of 4" and 1.5" Smiths mod 19s and 66s.
Me thinks your chromo has been fooling ya.
I checked the rounds you mentioned beginning with 4 gr of Titegroup and with either my Crony or my magneto speed chronograph. At 4. out of the 1.5" 19 it is 790 fps and out of the 4" barrel 19 and 66 it is 830 to 850 every time. I tried the 5.5 gr and they are 869 to 880 fps. This is within 15fps with both chronos.

Also checked +P loads and cannot find ANY that are under 1050 fps and up to 1200 fps. Thats why they are +P, they are hotter than normal 38 loads.
ALL loads of 3.5 gr were in excess of 700 fps.

Question also.

Why would you choose Titegroup for your pistol loads in the first place.

UF
Thanks for all that legwork, really appreciated. Hope you're ok.

I believe my chrono is correct - I just ran my 9mm rounds (4.1gr titegroup) through it the other day and they're in the just over 1000fps range, just as advertised.

My cast lead 158gr cast lead .38 rounds were running about 640FPS, which was expected. That was with 3.4gr of titegroup. I should probably up those a hair, but I'm all out of those bullets 'til I start casting this summer.

It's the 125gr ones that I'm working with - just want to confirm that you're shooting 125gr bullets? The load data I'm seeing on hodgdon's site really doesn't make sense to me:

125 GR Hornady XTP 4.3gr - 4.6gr with a range of 953-1010 FPS
125 GR. CAST LRNFP 3.2gr - 3.8gr with a range of 856-985 FPS
(these are out a 7.7" bbl)

Why is the cast bullet running 985FPS with 3.8gr while the XTP is slower with .5 more powder. Titegroup being as touchy as it is, I would think it would be considerable faster?

It was that second load on the Hodgdon site that was throwing me: xtreme says to run their bullets at higher end lead velocities. Well the 3.8gr listed at Hodgdon was still pretty darn slow.

The only manual I have with titegroup is Lyman's 50th: (4.0" bbl) lists a 125gr JHP 4.0gr - 4.5gr with a range of 816-915.

I've got rounds loaded up at 4.3gr through 4.5gr to test. Probably won't be able to get out to run 'em 'til next weekend though.

I'm using titegroup because it was available when I was buying powder. Stocks seem to be a bit better now, so I may branch out a bit. Right now I'm saving up for a big primer buy and am well stocked for powder.

I really do appreciate your insight.
 
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