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38 special cases w/ridges (cannelure?) - bulging while seating

6K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  drymag 
#1 ·
Hi Guys,

Had a bit of a problem while out shooting some of my 38 special reloads today (xtreme 125gr jacketed FP); I had quite a few cases that had cannelures that had bulged or deformed enough around the cannelure area to not fit into the cylinder.

When I got home, I disassembled the round and ran the case through the sizing die - they sized OK and the empty case would then fit into the cylinder. I recharged the round and seated/crimped - no good, would not fit in the cylinder. I then tried seating first, everything still fit in the cylinder. Then I crimped, and out of the 5 rounds, only two would still fit in the cylinder. So while crimping, they are getting enough downward pressure to deform the case around the cannelure. I can't raise the crimping die as I do need/want a good roll crimp on these rounds.

I didn't have this problem when I was running 158gr lead cast (which I'll be casting this summer). I'd like to get it figured out though as I have well over 400 of the 125gr jacketed left to load and a number of 38 cases w/cannelure.

Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong?

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#4 ·
Here's something to try. Not sure why you need a heavy crimp but how about pulling the bullets, seizing, yada Yama and back the crimp off. If that solves the bulging issue the try pushing the bullet in to the case. If it doesn't move then the crimp is good and no need to make it any heavier.

Good luck
 
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#7 ·
It appears the loaded round in the top of the photo has way too much crimp. Another thing, plated bullets have very shallow cannelure, the same crimp used for a cast bullet with a pronounced crimp groove, in this case isn't going to work. Another issue with roll crimps, all of your cases need to be held to a range of + plus or - minus .003" of whatever your target case length is. Too short of a case will give an insufficient crimp, too long will buckle the case just below the case mouth, and put a death grip on the bullet.
 
#8 ·
You are over-crimping. Reduce your crimp.
The case mouth should be just below the top of the bullet cannelure and then you roll crimp. Your picture show the crimp a bit lower down the cannelure then I prefer.
If you are seating and crimping in one operation, stop it and get a Redding Profile Crimp die and crimp separate from seating.
To verify:
Take the barrel out of the gun or use the cylinder for revolvers. Drop rounds in the chamber until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or cylinder) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
 
#9 ·
Thanks guys.

I was concerned about crimping enough and it appears I'm now crimping too much. I do build up a primerless blank round while getting setup. Finding that happy medium between too much crimp and a round that I can push the bullet in deeper is a process.

What I do is try to lean into the crimped round while holding it against the bench with my thumb behind it. How much pressure should I put on it to insure it's a solid crimp?

Also, is there a hazard with the rounds that I crimped that tightly? The cases with no cannelure slide right into the cylinder.
 
#12 ·
Crimps hold the bullets in place for a variety of reasons. One of them is some powders need a strong crimp to provide complete combustion. H110/WW296 (same powder) needs a firm crimp for that reason. This powder is designed to work under maximum pressure, and a firm crimp helps to ensure it acheives max pressure. Another reason for crimps is for ammo used in a tube magazine rifle, most common is a lever action rifle. They need a crimp to prevent the magazine spring pressure from pushing the bullet back in the case under recoil. Then there is revolver ammunition, it is the opposite reasons of the aforementioned rifle ammo. It should have a crimp to prevent the bullets from walking forward out of the case mouth under recoil, and for the complete ignition purposes.
I didn't notice if you said you were seating and crimping in the same step, but I'm guessing you are. I did it this way for years and never got the results I was looking for. It works somewhat satisfactory if you don't change any of you components. I finally went to applying the crimp as a separate step and the quality and appearance of my ammo improved. If you have a large variation in case lengths, a taper crimp die would solve the problem of too much/too little crimp because of varying case lengths. A taper crimp die would also be handy for the shallow cannelure plated bullets.
 
#10 ·
I agree with the others, likely too much bell, then too much crimp.

try to lighten it up both ways and do a check.

make up 10 rounds.

mark 2 of them. put them int he cyl, but never fire them.. load the others and fire. if the 2 you marked havn't had the projectile move, crimp is more than fine.
 
#11 ·
The best way to check crimp is to shoot 'em. Load a cylinder full, shoot all but one, measure OAL. If it has lengthened, not enough crimp. If the length stays the same, you can lighten the crimp, if you choose to, until bullet movement happens. For magnum handloads a good firm crimp is needed for complete ignition of slower powders, but light loads with a 125 gr. bullet won't need much...
 
#13 ·
I think a taper crimp die might be abusive to some cast bullets in some applications where the normal crimp method is roll...however... each case has it's prefered crimp style ( or 2 ) based on how it head spaces...

If you have sloppy brass with varying lengths all over the place, that's the fault of the sloppy reloader.. not a fault of seat and crimp in one step. The reloader just never learned to prep his brass correctly.

As an aside to that.. my straightwall pistol brass never seems to grow.
 
#14 ·
It may not work for everybody, but I use cast bullets in the 9MM, 40S&W, and 45ACP and all of these get a taper crimp. So far this works almost flawlessly. I threw the taper crimp idea out there because not everyone has a case trimmer or access to one. The taper crimp allows them the option of still applying a crimp to the ammo, without the expense of buying a case trimmer, and to allow easy change of components, without changing the other die settings.
 
#17 ·
If you own and can operate and read a caliper, you could use a lee case trimmer to make uniform brass, case web wouldn't matter.

My point was, why buy a tool to fix a problem that another tool does better.

Is, using a tc because cases aren't uniform, vs using uniform cases and regular crimp.

I personally would t choose NC bullets that were to be used in a RC application.

Matching tools and materials to the application yields efficiency . The more correct tools, the more correct materials, the better the efficiency.
 
#18 ·
ROLL crimps hold a bullet in place from the revolver recoil that drives the bullet out of the case like a kinetic bullet puller.
TAPER crimps don't really hold the bullet and are really only meant to remove any case mouth flare. Bullet tension holds the bullet in place and one should check every round, after seating and crimping, by trying to push the bullet into the case by thumb or finger pressure. If the bullet moves at all, that round is a reject.
Crimping is about as important as the load manuals give it credit--not much.
A roll of the case mouth into the bullet cannelure or crimp groove, even a little, is enough roll crimp for 98% of shooters.
 
#19 ·
Product Auto part Glass Metal

>I'm fully aware a taper crimp die is an additional purchase. I just bought a Redding .38/.357 taper crimp die, it was $26 and change plus shipping.

Hate to say it, but the Lee Taper Crimp Die is just as good (not talking about the Lee FCD) as any other taper crimp die.
Lead bullets should have a crimp groove or you roll crimp over the bullet ogive/shoulder. I have never needed a taper crimp die for any revolver round; however, I always use Redding Profile Crimp Dies for all my roll crimp jobs.
The picture above shows a cast bullet with the crimp groove just before the ogive starts.
 
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