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Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I've always used one of my handguns as my home defense weapon of choice. But I'm now dedicating that role to a shotgun. So I'm asking you guys what you think the best load is for a 12-gauge home defense weapon in my environment and with my equipment.
The shotgun is a 18-1/2" barrel full choke pump action shotgun (5 round tube mag + 1 in the chamber and I'll be building a leather buttstock wrap for it with more shell capacity). See picture below. I live in a rural area with no one around me who would be in danger of overpenetration from any shotgun load. It's just my wife and myself who live there, so there are no worries even about penetration through walls to another room. Our house is rather small and the only rooms in the house are the two bedrooms and the bathroom. The rest of the house is one big open space, so I'm not worried about having to turn tight corners or anything. Given my choice of shotgun and my environment, what kind of loads would be the best all-around home defense loads? Right now I have my first shot as 1-5/8 oz. #4 shot followed by 5 rounds of 1-1/8 oz. #8 shot. I'm not too terribly knowledgeable on shotgun loads so any advice you could give me would be great. http://www.rydberg.rice.edu/~hdunham...cattergun3.jpg |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Those are real good loads for very close range. Not going to get much better (bigger) than that without sending projectiles into undesireable areas.
If you have any family in the house at all, even one, you still don't want to rule out overpenetration in your considerations. Crap happens. I read a report about a man and his wife who lived alone together. During a violent entry the attacker got between the couple. Husband fired one shot with a SA .44 revolver, dead center in attacker's torso. The bullet went through him and struck his crouching wife in the head killing her. If hubby had a shotgun with birdshot I imagine it might have not been a tragedy. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Friend, an ounce is an ounce, in medicine; whether #4, or #9, it's still an ounce of medicine; Bigger shot only encourages overpenetration, at indoor ranges.
On the other hand, #7 1/2- #9's will give a surgeon a full night's work, where the bigger stuff is only a couple of hours; what would you pick as a 'just reward' for someone who violated your home??? My personal choice is an Ithaca M-37, with the cheapest 'dove and Quail' loads I can buy (7 1/2 shot), out of efficiency for purpose. Rationale? Anybody in my home can reach, rack, and fire it, with satisfactory results, where a pistol, or rifle, or even a shotgun, with larger shot, would do less well, all players, considered. Just my .02. Terry |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
You probably won't get to it, so what it's loaded with won't matter. You'll either sink or swim with the pistol. If you don't ccw the pistol around your home, you probably won't get to that, either (in time for anything but luck to determine the outcome.) small birdshot ain't worth a damn, because it wont reliably penetrate deeply enough. Put the muzzle in contact with a block of gelatin, or a critter, and fire a charge of #9, and most of the pellets won't penetrate more than 5" deep. The penetration at 10 ft, after piercing a heavy coat, won't be more than 2-3". #2 birdshot is the smallest pellet that makes any sense for defense.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
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2. Them little lead pellets are lethal all out of proportion to their size. 3. I've seen many times that #6 shot pierces clean through critters out at 20 or so meters. I've seen coyotes bagged at good distance with just #4 shot and the pellets went through-out the abdoman in a swiftly lethal fashion. A load of shot at "inside" distance will kill you good and quick. There's cemetaries worth of dead men as testement to the fact. 4. It's small game season in most of the country now. HIt the field with a scattergun and see what it can do. One other thing. About your other post. The advantage of a shotgun for home defense is not wide patterns. In most rooms the pattern won't get bigger than a fist anyway. Might as well be a rifle as far as that goes; you must still aim or be a competant point-shooter. The advantage is a massive traumatic load that is highly unlikely to penetrate a wall with lethal energy retained. Or a man's body. Or a wall, a window, another wall, a microwave, a door, an infants crib and a tiny pillowcase...for that matter. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I'm currently using Rem Tactical, reduced power, loads. Pleasant to shoot, tight pattern at indoor range and you can shoot enough to stay in practice. Its 1-1/8 oz of #8 shot. I also have OO buck shot in reduced load. From an 18in gun these work just fine are so easy on the shoulder.
My son put me through a 200rnd course of fire and was really glad the last 100rnd were the reduced loads, the first 100 were full house slugs. Smoky with the black and blue shoulder |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
There are several factors which bear on shotgun use for home defense, as I see it at least.
To begin with, let me state that there is nothing more effective than a 12 gauge, short of a handgrenade or atomic weapons. Alas, the powers-that-be tend to frown on the use of those two. :rolleyes: 1. Shortcoming: Shotguns tend to be difficult to store close enough at hand for really quick access, and to be rather awkward to handle in confined spaces. 2. Shortcoming: Shotguns can indeed be over penetratative, particularly with heavy loads, such as 00 buck. Ya gotta be careful where you shoot. 3. Shortcoming: Some potential self-defense users (most often women, no chauvinism implied) find their recoil simply too heavy for self-defense use. 4. Advantage: An intruder hit solidly with a 12 gauge load is very unlikely to continue the attack, unless he can figure out how to do it from Hell. :) 5. Advantage: The very sound and look of a shotgun can be a deterent factor if an intruder is faced, though one should never, ever depend on this as being a certainty. My own solution: I keep a Smith 637 in easy reach, and practice with at least twice a month. I also keep a 12 gauge Winchester 1300 with the plug removed loaded thusly: First two up the spout, #4 buck; next three, 00 buck; final two, slugs. Just my thoughts. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Yep, yep. Sounds good to me.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I'm not fatalistic, but I'm also not fool enough to think that I am likely to have 10 seconds in which to go get a gun and return to control a situation, either. Shotgun fans are the fatalistic ones. They just settle for being poor shottists with the pistol, too lazy to ccw one around their homes, etc. So they trust to luck and the shotgun's aura of being super-duper. I"ve shot a lot of game with both pistol and rifle. How many animals have you shot with say, a .45 Mag Safe? Yet you will of course be among the first to claim that the Mag Safe "lacks adequate penetration", when you don't really know a damned thing about it.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Since eons ago, there've been several factors that decide victory in combat. Depth and time are a couple. Both go hand in hand.
In your home you are a defender. You cannot decide when you fight, but you damn well can do a lot to give yourself ten seconds to get ready. Your imagination is the limit. A dog can give you ten seconds of warning; probably more, as they have since eons ago... If you are carrying a concealed weapon around in your own domain, you should mull over this thing. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
your best bet is to use a slug for a few reasons;good stopping power,less chance of thru and thru, one single projectile no spred,and pin point accuracy but the way I have a mossberg 500 my suggestion get yourself a surefire laser half the time you wont even need to fire when you see the fear in their eyes a little itty bitty red dot places.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I had a standard 2 3/4 load of #7 in my 870 one night. I read up on the overpenetration; tested the reasearch and that is what ended up in the first two rounds in my 870. Long story short; it is less than fatal against a guy in a coat. It does however; throw him through a screen door from accross the room. After the two #7's I have 3 very unkind handloads. I figure if they don't get the clue after being mistaken for pheasants I need to ring their bell. I use mixed shot; doctor's nightmare figuring out what the guy got stroked with.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
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I keep 5 3" 00 Buck in the Mossberg 500 Mariner 12ga. Now, overpenetration is not an issue whatsoever for me, the reason being I live alone in the middle of 5 acres, I'm not to worried about buckshot traveling to my neighbors.
And just for fun. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
kahr how does that shotgun shoot wth the pistol grip? :D
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Anybody buying into the 'lack of penetration' issue, with birdshot, needs to consider: Would you come and play in the dark with me, even in a heavy coat, but INDOORS (read that, 10 foot range) If I PROMISED to shoot at you with ONLY Win AA Skeet loads???
I've seen broken ribs, punctured lungs, and worse from impact, of a substantial pistol round, on a protective vest, which did not penetrate the vest, but took out the wearer! Most creatures of the night are much less well protected, and an ounce of shot, even in small sizes, carries energy well in excess of any pistol going. If one hears the sound (Unmistakeable) of the slide going forward on a shotgun, he has entered into a "Career Decision" zone. Not that all lawbreakers are that smart; obviously, many are not. Still, if I can avoid a shooting, it is to my very great advantage to do so. When the shooting stops, the problems have only just begun. Living by one's self, out in the country, on a large property, are not truly relevant, since what we are talking about is the immediacy of incapacitation, which, with equivalent energy, favors the multiplicity of wounds. The same load that stops most quickly, in the country, is the safest, in town, regarding over penetration concerns. Should the situation get real 'up close and personal', a shotgun becomes an 'impact weapon' the likes of which no handgun can match. The choice seems obvious. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I've got both an XD 40 and a Mossberg 835 within arms distance of my bed at night. Several of you went with went with the first two or so rounds in the shotgun being a lighter load (usually 7 and 8) then followed those by heavier ones. Does this really make a big difference in court? (for handguns as well?) Although a 12 gauge getting fire in the hole might sound very intimidating to an intruder, I dont like the fact that it takes an extra second or so to complete this intimidation technique, and frankly Im not worried about intimidating an intruder - my goal is to stop him. Back to the initial question, should i replace the 180gr hydrashok in the XD and the 00 buck in the Mossberg for a "kinder free sample" round so that it makes the legal process that would follow flow smoother?
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
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It's a more than adequate weapon, for personal defense, if well handled, and we both know it, you troll! For the average homeowner, one who does not bust 3 or 4 cases of ammo, a month, the shotgun offers the advantages of retention (2 hands), and familiatity, which a pistol may not. Most, in urban settings, must also consider penetration, and social acceptance, of the weapon, and load, should they ever have to use a weapon. Here, in Texas, 'Burglary of a Habitation' is, by definition, a Felony charge, which, under our Penal Code, justifies the use of 'Deadly Force': this is a nuance of law not seen in Kalifornia, DC, and many other places! The Sherrif come out, says "He'd dead", and the issue is at an end, EXCEPT for Civil Suits, which are the whole point of my previous posts! An ounce is an ounce, and, at indoor ranges, or exceptional protective gear, the receiver will never know what size the shot was; the court, in a civil suit, will. If one lives in Ohio, Pennsylvania, or similar states, where deer are hunted with slug, or Buck, the defense may be easy; if not, could be expensive! If I wake first, in the night, to the sound of forced entry, likely I will reach for my pistol, an old and valued friend, but, should she wake first, the shotgun is a better choice; a consistant wing shot, but not a pistol shooter, she gives me comfort, as a companion, when the chips are down. The choice of loads is dictated by legal precedent, and the desire to remain solvent, should civil action follow an incident. For most, defensive weapons are at best, a compromise, between several competing needs; do what you gotta do, but, do it INFORMED! Our 'house gun' is a M-37 Ithaca, full of 7 1/2's, 18 1/2 inches long, stored muzzle down, chamber empty;pull on the slide release, and it will 'gravity load', with all the attendant sounds. Best 'High energy' compromise I can find. Comments are welcomed, as I live to learn. |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
High velocity 7.5's in the 870. All of them, in the tube and on the butt cuff. OK, so he's wearing leather and takes the first couple of rounds to the chest laughing - ever seen what a load of 7.5's do to a mellon?!?!? I'm assuming he's not attacking wearing a motorcycle helmet.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
open the tube. full choke it too tight for close range. first round #4 or #6 game load. remainder #1 or #4 buck.
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
More "throws him across the room," and "birdshot won't penetrate" remarks.
A 12 ga. won't knock someone down, much less throw him across the room. Birdshot penetrates pretty well at ranges under 15 feet. Choke doesn't matter at these ranges. Anything you load a shotgun with is very likely to stop an intruder. In your home, the likelihood of civil suits is very low. I do know a man who took a load of #8 shot to the right side of his chest at 10 feet. The guy ran 35 yards before collapsing from blood loss. He did stop what he was doing, and he did live. The shooting was within blocks of a hospital. I also know the man who shot him. So, you never know. Bill |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Any one see a beat up ole horse round here????? Heh!!! ever ring a twelve gauge shell??? I could be wrong and mostly am, so take it with a grain of salt.
The purpose of using bird shot are many, first from the legal view. Trust me, it`s just easier in the court room during a civil suit---should that arise and remember......Civil court needs no (BEYOND REASON) to cook you goose. While some may favor slugs or buckshot, both have problems in home defense. Slugs, heh!!! if they can go through BP Glass, you can bet they will go through a human at these short ranges, whats behind your target in the heat of this moment.....may be unseen until it`s over. Buckshot looks cool in the movies (best movie for buckshot glory-Steve McQueen....."The Get Away") Buckshot will kill but it``s usally the golden BB and not the perfect aimed shot. Plus, very little energy is transfered into the target via multi .30 caliber balls. At these ranges with birdshot, it doesn`t even need to penetrate, it will knock a man down......I don`t care who says it won`t-----IT Will and it will break bones doing it. Birdshot delievers every pound & ounce of energy into the target........remember EVERY OUNCE Delievered ENERGY is the key EVERY time and nothing else really matters (as much) Thank you and good night This is Chet......ops LTS |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
"it will knock a man down......I don`t care who says it won`t-----IT Will "
Chet Apparently, you know how to defy the laws of physics! Please tell us how birdshot, slugs, a 30-06, or any other conventional hand, or shoulder-fired weapon could possibly do this? You have some interesting ideas about energy transfer. Bill |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
I found some ammo from Cabela's called Dead Coyote. 53 pellets OH YEA
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Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
We are talking about an intruder in your home! Why on earth would anyone think there would be a civil lawsuit for shooting someone that broke into your house?
As far as a shotgun knocking a man down, blowing him through a screen door, try this: Take a big bag of sand, or even an 80 lb. bag of concrete mix, stand it on end, and tie a rope around it to secure it in the upright position. Tie the rope to something overhead. Shoot the bag with your favorite shotgun load. See how far the bag moves. My bet is maybe a few inches. How could this "knock a man down?" The owner of Second Chance bulletproof vests used to put a thick phone book on his chest, under one of his vests, and shoot himself with a .44 magnum. The gun didn't knock him down, yet I have seen someone say on another forum that he knocked a deer end over end with a .45 long Colt! There are very simple laws of physics at work here, and "By God, I done seen it happen!" is not one of them. It really pains me to see the amount of disinformation that is spread on the gun forums. Bill |
Re: Let's talk about home defense 12-ga loads again
Bill
He didn't say it would "knock a man back against a wall like a terminator movie" he said "At these ranges with birdshot, it doesn`t even need to penetrate, it will knock a man down" I percieved that to mean that the bird shot would do it's job and put him down...Those of us fortunate enough to have young 'uns in the house really need to concider alternatives like this. Nice post though, I enjoied the read. Crpdeth |
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