New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Hi,

New guy here. I've been trying to determine what the heck it is my dad brought back from Germany after WW2. I did search the forum but didn't find anything like it. It's a double gun, rifle on the right and shotgun on the left that uses cartridges but has no firing pins. It has double top striking hammers that are flat with a step and the top where they strike is flat with a slight recess on the barrel side and a channel in the face of the barrels. The gun is beautifully made - obviously from a master craftsman with tons of detail. The only words on it are on the center band between the barrels (picture). Any help in identifying the gun would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, jb

[IMG]http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5976.jpg[/IMG]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5977.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5978.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5979.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5980.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5981.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5982.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5983.jpg


On edit: I forgot to mention that the parts do have a serial number. But it's a single digit!

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Welcome to the forum.

It's a pinfire combo gun from north Germany. Remove the barrels and there will be proofmarks and probably gauge and caliber markings.

The Peter Bockwoldt firm still exists in Oldenburg, and may have old records:

http://web2.cylex.de/firma-home/bock...h-1639061.html

This will explain "pinfire" ammo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinfire

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Pinfire? I just googled it up -- what a unique method of firing a round off!

Also just double checked under the barrels. No proof marks, no caliber, nothing except for the serial number that is on each part (and a single digit at that!)

Thanks for the info, I try to contact them

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Here you've a few of that kind ....sorry in french but the pictures are there

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...ticle&artid=45
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...icle&artid=186
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...ticle&artid=97
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...icle&artid=200
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...ticle&artid=20
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...ticle&artid=19
LF

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

:D And that's why you can't locate the firing pins:D

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Yeah, I knew there was an explanation, but dog-gone if I could figure it out without help from here!:D


lefaucheux 54, thanks for the links. It's good to see similar pieces. Also interesting to see the dates in the 1840's and 1850's! Too bad they don't include estimates of value.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

There may be city or guild proof marks, but the gun antedates the 1891 German national proof laws.

Jim

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Hello ,
It's part of my collection , they aren't for sale.
...gonna try to translate some of theme.
Greetings from Normandy in France
LF

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Made a quick translation of on of theme , it's not easy to find the good words , so have a look and give me an indication if you see "wrong uses" .....

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefa...icle&artid=232

Thanks to you
LF

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

That's a very nice old drilling. Birds to boar all in one hunting trip!

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

No drilling shown (Drillings have three barrels)

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Unfortunately there's not much collector interest in pinfires.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Why ??

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

That I don't know.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Hello John Bud
Can you show us some pictures of what is marked under the barrels and elsewhere on the rifle.
Bockwordt in Olendburg isn't mentionned in my books ....
Perhaps only the seller.
If you show us the proofmark I can eventuelly tel you the or période of makin , the country and with a little chance the gunsmidt how made it ....

Thanks
LF

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Thank you for the excellent translation. Your English is 1,000,000 times better than my French. :D

Here are some views of the hidden areas : A bit redundant, but I wanted to get different angles and light in case there was some faint mark that I am missing.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5985.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5986.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5987.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5988.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5989.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5990.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5991.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5992.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...r/CIMG5993.jpg

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Thats an assembly number to keep track of all the parts before assembly.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

The story of assembly numbers is interesting. Since they wanted to produce a nice gun for the customer, the whole gun was assembled "in the white" (with no finish and no hardening), and hand fitted as necessary. Then the parts were given a final polish, blued or case hardened or whatever, and re-assembled. The numbers made sure the previously fitted parts were assembled correctly.

Just some FWIW based on a e-mail question. The man wanted to know how they managed to get the screw slots all lined up on the old guns. The answer is simple, though not obvious. The screws were made wtih extra thick heads, with normal slots. After they were tightened down, the projecting sides were marked with the right direction, the screw removed, and the head cut down to the proper height. The new slot was then cut, using the marks for alignment, and the marks polished off. This was, of course, very tedious, time consuming and expensive, and by the early 20th century it was done only on the most expensive guns. Today such care is rare and few customers would notice it if it were done.

Jim

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Only with a 3 .... we won't go very far.....
No name in the "platine" I don't know the english word for it ... the metallic piece with the hammer and the mecanisme..
The place on the upper side and between the barrels was principally used by the one how sold it ...
This rifle is to nice looking to have been made in a big serie.... so there must be somewhere an indication

LF

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

LF, I'll take a very close look at all the gun to see if there are any marks on it anywhere. My suspicion is that any marks might be under a metal piece and that it would take un-screwing screws to get to it. I am not feeling brave enough to do that!

Jim, You know, I was actually wondering how they got the screws all lined up too! It might have been expensive, but is sure does make the gun look "finished".

For a gun that is 150 years old or more, it is incredibly tight. There isn't slop or wobble in any of the parts. Everything moves smoothly with consistent friction. Obviously, the master craftsmen that built it knew their craft far better than I can express.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Hi I just came across a similar gun. Its a 20 gauge muzzleloader I believe.It looks almost the same. What did you find on it and what is the value.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Platine = Lockplate

I'm not much of a pinfire-ophile but I like this one as an example of its type and workmanship.

Comment --- when I was in France 1940s -'70s (off and on) pinfire ammo was available in gunshops & pinfire shotguns (obviously) in use by farmers and other rural folk.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

For the same reason many cartridge guns draw little collector interest--rounds are obsolete, next to impossible to find, and very expensive when you do find them.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

Originally Posted by Hawg
Unfortunately there's not much collector interest in pinfires.

Originally Posted by lefaucheux 54
Why ??


I'll add another view. Collectors of antique firearms are historians at heart. Here in the U.S. we have virtually no history of pinfires. There were some Lefaucheux imported in the time of our war between the States- but other than that, pinfires were just not a significant part of our history. Perhaps a combination of forces were at work to create this situation.
1.) Pin fire ammunition was somewhat scarce and had to be imported.
2,) Reloading was thought to be too difficult if not impossible.
3.) The war had led to a great many experimental ignition systems which competed for attention,
and, most likely,
4.) The post-war ready availability of large caliber rimfire, and in time, centerfire cartridges and ammunition overwhelmed the pinfire concept in this country.

The firearm pictured is very attractive and, in my personal opinion, collectible BUT. lacking the historical connection, it would sell here in the US to a quite limited buyer market and probably at a price far below it's realistic value in Europe.

Re: New guy -- old unknown double gun
 

FWIW, the German word for a double barrel gun is "Zwilling" (twin), but my German is not good enough to know if there is a special term for a shotgun/rifle combination double.

Jim