Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Pretty extreme thread title.

This is my first post. Usually i feel bad for joining a forum and only contributing to a few threads, and never comit to being a full member of the community, but i am here for advice, and to promote a discussion.

You might have guessed, im from the UK, London to be specific. There are a few british gun forums, but as firearms are not commonplace, they are not busy, and i doubt they would share the experience that i could gain from a group like this.

I have become a paranoid man. I am losing faith in the world as we know it. The way the western world works, society that feeds on the weak, an economy based on greed. We continue to outgrow ourselves, and it is starting to show. Financial crisis', terrorism, natural disasters, they happen all the time, and we seem to forget them so easily. I think that its going to hit the fan eventually, and that eventuality is going to be in my lifetime. And while all the bankers and retail assistants and consumers panic and struggle, i have decided that i am going to be prepared, and ready. **** is going to go down!

Let me get to the point. I can see from the threads that there are many posts on what weapon is best for self/home/gang defense. I am not going to read through them all in detail, there is far too much information that i simply do not understand. I have never fired anything other than a .22 air rifle.

I want to be armed. I want to have a selection of weaponry that would provide me and maybe one other with the best means to secure my own survival in a world that has been torn apart by looting, gangs, martial law. You name it. Just imagine mad max or something.

I dont want to be driving to the gun shop the day after things go bad, to be greeted by a group of people who are holding it as a fortress, or meet a roadblock as i head out of town that loots all food and water that i am carrying. I need to be prepared now, so that i am ready to go.

A very simple overview of UK law so you have an idea of what i can have (to the best of my knowledge)

Legal with a license:
- Semi automatic + pump action shotguns
- single bolt rifles allowed in any calibre
- semi automatic rifles .22 and below

Illegal
- pistols
- fully automatic weapons
- ammunition that is explosive/corrosive/incendiary
- rockets and mortars
- flamethrowers etc

Legal without any license (just some suggestions)
- Knives
- Crossbows
- Compound bows


So, to the actual question.

If i were to pick weapons which i could easily carry, which enabled me to defend myself in a multitude of scenarios, what should i pick, which i can aquire a license and train with NOW, in preparation for what i beleive is an uncertain future. Scenarios to consider would be

- Scavenging and moving through confined indoor spaces
- Shooting targets at some distance before they can return fire
- Shooting many targets without much backup
- Defending myself in close-quarters situations
- Anything regarding hostages or a gun in my face
- Consider that i may be reduced to travel on foot, or even bicycle, so i would be forced to select one or two weapons only
- Consider that ammunition will be extremely rare for me, so a weapon that can utilise a common ammunition would be a bonus
- I am un-trained in the use of fire arms, so something simple to use or easy to learn is potentially good. I doubt i am going to be making good use of a high calibre sniper rifle any time soon.

Keep in mind that this is for DEFENSE. Although i admit that when the situation calls for it, i beleive i would be able to kill for my survival, this is purely a safety related thing. If this time ever comes, it is going to be the people with the weapons who are in charge.

I am not crazy. Seriously.

I hope this is an interesting discussion that we can all participate in :)

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Welcome aboard mart.

First let me say that i think you are wise to be concerened as you are.
My sympathy for the Queens dislike of hand guns :(

I would suggest a 12 ga. "Coach Gun", shorter barrel, assuming your legal barrel lengths are same as ours 18".

http://hauck-waffenbau.net/s/cc_imag...g?t=1302586903

next I would research an AR style in .22

http://www.ar-15.us/pic/22kit/001-001001-003.jpg

http://www.ar-15.us/22_kits.php

good luck

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

I dont think you are crazy; to the contrary. You are a man with a very practical outlook on things, and possible things to come, and being prepared is very important. It is extremely unfortunate that you are so severely limited in the UK about your firearms alternatives. I look at the UK as a GLARING example of why we must not let similar "gun banning" happen here. I think that given your limited choices, Al Mount is right on the money here. A good shotgun and plenty of shells (preferably buck shot) and a good semi automatic 22 rifle with a large capacity magazine, like the AR platform 22 he recommended, or a Ruger 10-22, or similar arm, are your best alternatives. Be sure if you DO acquire a semiauto 22 rifle that you make sure that you have very reliable magazines as large capacity mags for a 22 are certainly NOT created equally. Good luck.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Martwizz , you aint nutz , i'm a aussie but had mates in Brixton until they relocated for safety ...

the jihadis there are still coward but attack when they have group courage ( in numbers only) the shotgun and semi auto .22 are a good call ,

take a look online (here's my site http://minus.com/jack404 ) and look for Phil Luty

Phil was one of yours, a great guy , fought against the stupid gun laws and got gaoled for it a couple times, while rapists and such walked ..

the plans he put together would come in handy in a SHTF situation

make em yourself , part make em and keep em in parts until needed , but keep em so you still need to do some small parts to make em work

your shotty and rifle will hold you for a few hours .. ,

cheers , stay safe eh , bad times are a coming your way ( here too in oz eh)

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

thanks for the suggestions! I didnt realise that there were alternative versions of modern semi-automatic rifles in a .22 calibre.

What makes you suggest a coach gun over a pump-action shotgun. I would have thought that the extra ammunition is a bonus, although i have read that it is quicker to take the second shot with the second barrel. Are there other factors such as reliability, weight or accuracy that you are considering?

EDIT: Scratch that, semi automatic shotguns, according to our queen, can only have a 2-round capacity. So that would be a pretty pointless 870. :P Still interested in why you made that choice though, regardless of the fact that i am limited by this.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Now, he said "semi auto .22 and below", but I believe that is .22 rimfire and below. That AR15 in .223, I'm pretty dang sure, ain't legal.

Iffen it was me, I'd get a 12 bore pump with the barrel off even with the end of the magazine tube, which would be about 14 inches.

I'd get a good 22 rimfire semi auto rifle with a tubular magazine, like a Marlin 60.

I'd get an Enfield or a Mauser, in 7.62 NATO. The Brits fought well in two world wars with the Enfield, and the Germans did the same with the Mauser. Ultra-high capacity and semi-automatic firepower is not needed.

And I'd get as much ammo as my finances and British law would allow me.

In a "the world's gone to hell" scenario, I don't believe you want a gun with a removable magazine. 'Cause no matter how careful you are, eventually they are all going to be lost/damaged, and then you have a clumsy single-shot.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

I believe he suggested the coach gun for size. Over here we are limited to a minimum barrel length of 18 inches. By going to a side-by-side, instead of a pump, you are losing eight inches of receiver length, so for two guns both with the same barrel length, the double will be shorter.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Coach gun=short barrel

= sling over yer shoulder while running and catch no branches

= easier to conceal

= reloads quick, if you practice

= stock can be cut & shot like a pistol

= 12 ga shells are common, at least on this side of the pond

= bare minimum of moving parts

= rocket science degree not required to operate

= unlike a .22... guarnteed to kill Zombies

= unlike a .22... can't be confused with an 'Air Soft" play gun

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

That's why it was suggested getting an AR-15 in a .22 conversion

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

I was in a hurry and did not mean a conversion, as that might rub the Queen raw.

There are a bunch of .22's on an AR platform, is what I meant.



On a side note.....

Sum Beach... I'd hate to think I was restricted to only a .22

when the ghetto heathen aka "Kwanzi Keelers"

try to storm us country folks... :eek:

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

I would go with the coach gun in 12 gauge like others suggested and I would also have a bolt action in .308 with a scope for those long shots if needed with precision. Not every bad guy is going to be standing right in front of you. I believe they will be hiding in buildings taking cover and taking a shot when they get the chance. The scope will also double for binoculars so that things can be scouted out.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

If you cant have a handgun; like a high-capacity 9 or 40 in your "kit" and obviously from the regulations you can in UK, then the high capacity removable clip 22 rifle is apparently the only high capacity firearm that is possible. If confronted by a large number of opponents, SOMETHING with such capacity is going to be necessary - its certainly NOT the weapon of choice, but if its your ONLY choice, then it will have to do. Its a matter of personal opinion, but I, too, prefer a double to a pump; while the pump holds 5-6 to the double's 2, I can also get off say, 8 shots in about the same amount of time as a pump, when you figure out how much effort it takes to ram 5-6 more into the pump.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Welcome to TFF Mart :) Keep in mind that while it may be limited to two rounds now; once/if SHTF, screw the queen and have the availability to restore it to it's full capacity. Unless they weld in the plug, it's not hard to remove the plug. I'll do a bit of research and see what I can find on how they have to physically limit capacity to 2 rounds.

A double barrel coach gun with extractors is pretty simple to unload/load quickly; in fact, I may be able to get off 20 rounds quicker with it than with a semi-auto. The coach gun is much easier to operate and more reliable since it's a much simpler mechanical gun; less to break, less to worry about.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

is there a difference between a coach gun and a regular side by double barrell shotgun that has been sawn off? I think that the coach gun would come underneath the minimum legal shotgun size (24"), and would therefore be classed as a 'firearm'.

As i understand it, firearm certificates are much more difficult to obtain here than a shotgun license.

Would a standard 12g double barrel become a coach simply by sawing off some of the end, or are coach guns specifically made with something at the end of the shorter barrell which affects the projectile? (I understand that the barrell is smooth bore versus rifled, but there must be a catch)

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Coach gun is the term used for a double barrel with barrels about 20 inches long. This is because of all the western movies that always showed the shotgun guard on a stage coach with a short barreled shotgun. History shows that they preferred longer barrels, but why let fact interfere with a good movie.

So, yes, if your law gives a minimum of 24 inches, than a coach gun would be under the limit.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Just curious here, is that 24" overall, or the length of the barrels? The short barrels of a shotgun will serve you well in close quarter combat. It is easier to get around corners without exposing any more of your self than necessary. It is extremely efficientat close ranges. My problem with the .22 is that you have to make several good solid hits on a target to get a stoppage. I would opt for the larger caliber rifle with the scope. Gives you the ability to reach out and touch some one, and it only takes one well placed shot. The .22 is lighter, and eaiser to carry, and because of the weight of the ammo you can carry a lot more of it, but it lacks stopping power. Remember this one thing, if you survive long enough, you will aquire other weapons from time to time. Maybe much better weapons than the ones you started with.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

The law defines this as a smooth-bored gun with barrels of not less than 24”. If the gun is a semi-automatic or pump-action, the magazine must be restricted to hold no more than two shells, with a third in the chamber.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Martwizz, are we helping you out any?

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Yeah, its really good information! Its quite alot to get my head around, because ive never been a gun person.

Most of the challenge for me is going to be getting the lisence itself, because it requires i have a security box to store them in etc, and i live in london. As i said, shotguns are easier than other firearms.

Im just trying to get an outside perspective as to what types of firearm are going to be best to have in this situation. I dont think its right for me to ask these sorts of questions in a gun shop, when i will be buying for sport shooting. And i cant tell the police i want a lisence 'just incase'. Apparently self defense with firearms is illegal here or something obsurd.

Im pretty sure that a standard size double barrel shotgun is going to be the essential item as i can always saw the barrell off, and the simple mechanism seems more reliable. The ammunition will be readily available also, and it has plenty of stopping power. To be honest, simply having one discourages trouble in such an environment.

As far as collecting as i go, i dont think guns are going to be as readily available as you expect. Any groups that have firearms are likely to be either military, law enforcement or gangs, and they will just be claiming weapons off each other. Its not like i would find them in homes like you guys would.

I did give thought to the lack of stopping power of the .22. I very much understand that it can kill, and as a light weapon it would be easily handled with little recoil. The ammunition would probably be the easiest for me to aquire. How combat effective could i expect it to be though? Would a shot to a limb or the torso at medium range cripple or seriously harm an enemy?

These are very strange questions to be asking... i cant stress enough how much i am not buying guns to kill people with.... even though that is ultimately the intended purpose when SHTF. =/

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

When that time comes... they will be animals, not people.

Keep in mind the home invasion scene from "A Clockwork Orange"

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

.22 Magnum?

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

I myself would not have a .22 in a situation where law and order has broken down. I would have at least a 30-30 lever or something bigger as I suggested earlier. Remember now is the time to pick what you will want to use and to practice with.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Levers are legal, over there. Must be, 'cause they play cowboy. They all use cap-n-ball revolvers, 'cause they can't have cartridge pistols, but they use lever action rifles. I'd look for a Rossi 92 in 357. Can use both 357 and 38 special. With a 20 inch barrel it holds 10 rounds (11 if you have one in the chamber). Beats a 22 all to hell.

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Good shout, i hadn't thought of lever action rifles!

Re: Defending yourself after the collapse of society
 

Shotguns legally can only have 2 shot capacity. True, but you're talking no law at all. Just take out the magazine plug and fill it up. Any size shot, whatever is cheapest. Number 8 knocks bad guys down as well as 00 buck when they're close. Just make sure you have lots. As one old soldier told me, Pile on the ammunition until you're knees buckle, then fill up odd places with grenades. A .22 hit below the belt buckle will change anyones mind. The main advantage of a double barrel shotgun over a pump is it's simplicity, especially for someone unaccostomed to firearms.