[hunter29180]

this thread is Great! Polishshooter,CJ56 and aa1911, great information! keep it comming!

now back to the discussion.....

first I never argued that the 12 was more powerfull than the .410...although I would argue that point! IF a 410 is as powerfull as a 12 then why isnt it suggested as a Bear defense weapon? the 12 with slugs is recommended! the .410 slug weighs as much as the bullet fron a 44 mag, 454,and 500 mag.....all recommended Bear defensive rounds.

simlpe it just isnt powerfull enough. and no I would have a hard time believing that a .410 pellet at 20 ft hits the target wuth the same power as a 12...the 2 dont even have the same range! as would be the case if both left the barrel with the same force and velocity!

next 95% of people do not use birdshot for SD...they use 00,000 and slugs. It seems you and I belong to the rare 5 % who choose birdshot. (although I actually use 6-8 shot)

as to pattern..well a 12's pattern is designed to spread out faster than a .410..it has a lot more pellets to do so with! so at the same range the 12 pattern will be 2-3 times the diamater of the .410! so at 15-20 ft the .410's pattern is still pretty much within the size of a large mans chest! the 12's will be about 1 1/2 that size.. at 30 ft the 12 will be about 4 ft and the .410 will be about 2-2 1/2 ft..assuming the chokes are the same that is. Yes Polishshooter also pointed this out!! although I disagree with him on the pattern being the same size with any shotgun if the chokes are the same.

now on my judge...first shot (fired about head high) is a #8 shot to disorent and hopefully blind the BG and partner if one is behind him. (ever notice a person who is behind someone is always trying to look around him?)..the 2nd is a defensive load .410 with 3 buck and 6 bb's, next 3 are 45lc for finishers.

the pattern on my judge opens the #8 to about 4 ft at 15 ft and 2 ft for the defensive load....the 45lc, I can hit a mans chest at 30 yds...so in my hallway from the door od the master bedroom to the end of the hall is about 22 ft. so any shot penetrating the wall to the bedroom on the side is well past where someone would be sleeping or hiding.
as you can see I have thought this out! the 12 could possibly nip someones feet in the same situation. (in theroy that is..)

after all untill it happens its all theroy..right?

as to deer..well the 12 as a slug gun is very good as a deer collector..and I have took deer with my .410 using slugs..but I would never attempt to do so at the ranges you can with a 12...the .410 just dont have the power to reliabily get a slug that far out and have enough force to reliabily kill a deer at over 40-50 ft. maybe I am just very conseravative with my .410 but I have took more game with a .410 and .22 than with any other firearms and consiter my self well versed in their capabilitys. NOT saying a better shot cant do many things I wouldnt even think of doing. I rank my self as a average so-so shot overall.

and just as a reminder the Original though was beween 3 calibers of rifles..for longer range of larger game and defense. but the other things we have touched up is very approate also and is being used in the ongoing discussion I am having with my friends.
we are still planning and stocking up. between the 6 of us we are trying to cover most the based as we can. pooling some and deligating some. so keep it comming!