Flhunter
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(1/6/02 10:30:23 pm)
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I picked up a couple of Iver Johnsons top break revolvers and was wondering if anyone could give me a date of manufacture for them.
First one ser. # H348XX and is hammerless, cal. 32 S&W
Second one ser. # G17XX cal. unknown
Both are top break revolvers. I was told that they were both .32 cal. But looking at them I see a difference where the second one might be .38 cal. Also while researching I noticed that they were made in either a 32 S&W or 38 S&W. It is not a 38 S&W cal. as the cylinder is too short compared to another revolver I have over here that is a 38 S&W cal. Any ideas?
I bought these two little guys to practice some home brew bluing since the price was right and no matter what I do or how bad I do they'll still be worth only a few dollars. Any suggestions on bluing kits that haved worked for you in the past? As always thanks.
AntiqueDr
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(1/6/02 10:37:38 pm)
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ezSupporter
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The Safety Hammerless is c.1930-40.
Need more info on the other gun.
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Flhunter
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(1/6/02 10:52:13 pm)
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Thanks AD!!
The second one is also a top break and has the same two locking lugs at the top. It is also a 5 shot with fixed sites. Besides the hammer and being a little bigger the only other difference I see is on the top of the barrel. There are some patent dates there as follows:
Iver Johnsons & cycle works Fitchburg Mass USA
PATD 6, 86 FEB 15, 87 MAY 10, 87 AUG 25, 96 Pats Pending
Also the trigger hits a lever(where a trigger stop might be) which releases the hammer.
All the research I have done on the net has told me that it is not an antique as the serial number starts after "F".
If a picture of it or of a certain part of it will help, I'll be happy to post one.
Edited by: Flhunter at: 1/6/02 10:56:52 pm
AntiqueDr
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(1/6/02 10:55:20 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Not necessary. Believe to be a variant of the Model 1900, c.1920 or so. Chambered for either .32 S&W or .38 S&W.
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Xracer
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Posts: 1422
(1/7/02 9:31:09 am)
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Doc.....you sure about that second one? My book says that the Model 1900 was a removable cylinder gun. The top-break should be a "Safety Hammer".....made from 1892 to 1950.
If it's a 5-holer, it's a .38 S&W. The .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long is a 6-holer.
I hope you're not planning on firing them, Flhunter. They weren't called "Suicide Specials" for nothin'!
My first gun was a Model 1900 in .22 RF. I traded a bag of marbles for it......damn thing spit more lead out the sides of the cylinder than out of the barrel. I traded it away for a half a bag of marbles.
My first big gun deal!
AntiqueDr
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(1/7/02 10:49:58 am)
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ezSupporter
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You're right, X. The 1900 was not a tip-up.
I guess it does pay to hit the book on occasion instead of relying on a rusty old brainbox!
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Flhunter
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(1/7/02 12:04:51 pm)
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After more researching, I have found out(at least I think) that it's a second model saftey hammer. Built between 1900 and 1908.
Now if it's a 38 S&W cal. why is the cylinder so much shorter in length than my other 38 S&W?
Xracer; No I have no plans to shoot it, just to practice a reblue job on it. Thanks for the warning.
If someones town has a gun buy back program every once in awhile, these pistols equal easy money.
Xracer
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Posts: 1424
(1/7/02 12:29:12 pm)
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Don't know why the cylinder is too short....unless your other .38 S&W isn't actually .38 S&W, but maybe something like .38 Colt Long. Try finding a .38 S&W round (1.20 OAL) and see if it fits (but don't shoot it!).
The Iver Johnson Safety Hammer was only made in the following calibers:
.22 S,L & LR ......7 shot
.32 S&W; .32 S&W Long ......6 shot
.38 S&W ......5 shot
These old revolvers can make great wall hangers. I had a buddy who took an old suicide special and had it mounted and framed with a poker hand....Aces over 8s. Told everybody that it was Wild Bill Hiccup's backup gun. Said his grandfather was given it by his girlfriend....a B-Girl in the #10 Saloon in Deadwood who took it off Wild Bill's still-warm body. It was great for a few laughs!
Flhunter
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(1/7/02 7:17:04 pm)
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Xracer, My other 38 S&W is the "Victory model" made by S&W. It is a 38 S&W cal. without a doubt. Also the first gun that AD was helping me with is also a 5 shot and it has to be chambered for the 32 S&W because it's cylinder is a little bitty thing. Trust me there is no way it is a 38.
Why are they called the suicide special? I've never heard of that before. The only slogan that I've heard associated with these revolvers is "Hammer the hammer". That slogan came about when Iver Johnsons started using a transfer bar in their revolvers back in the early 1900's.
I sure hope I did not mess you up like I did AD with my lack of information I provided when trying to ID these new toys.
AntiqueDr
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(1/7/02 7:27:48 pm)
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ezSupporter
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You didnt mess me up, my fault for not double-checking a reference instead of going out of my ever-faltering memory. Anyway, the difference in the cylinders is because the Victory model is based on a larger-framed gun and therefore has a larger frame window for the cylinder.
The same gun (basically) was also chambered in .38 Special, making the longer cylinder a necessity. Look into the chambers of your revolver, you will see how much extra room there is.
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Xracer
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Posts: 1431
(1/8/02 9:28:41 am)
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There were millions of these bottom-of-the-line, low-end, el-cheapo handguns made here (Iver Johnson, Merwin & Hubert, Norwich Arms, and others), and imported, from the 1880s to the 1930s.....many of them so poorly made that they were as dangerous to the shooter as to the intended victim......hence, "Suicide Special".
Flhunter
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(1/8/02 4:00:13 pm)
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AD, Your right again !!!! What a waste of space. Looks like only half of the cylinder is being used. If I would not have know better, I would have thought I had the wrong ammo. Looks like I need to pick up a few rounds now. Thanks for all your help on this.
Xracer, Thanks for the info. When ever I get a new/old toy I end up doing a lot of researach into the company and the different models of firearms they made. Also any role they played in history. Whether good or bad. All in all it turns out to be a great little tidbit of a history lesson. Some times it envolves a conquered empire and sometimes it's just an old slogan or a new word. "Suicide Special, hammer the hammer" etc. It's alot of fun.
Xracer
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(1/8/02 4:59:37 pm)
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Glad to help. It's fun for me too.....especially since,for many years, I lived just down the road from Norwich, CT, which, in the late 1800s and early 1900s was the "cheap firearms capitol of the world".
All of those arms factories closed long ago, but there is one lasting legacy. Together, they endowed one of the finest high schools in the United States.....Norwich Free Academy, which is still going strong. For many years, I shot their yearbook pictures.
AGunguy
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Posts: 1187
(1/13/02 10:19:54 am)
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Say, I've got a little .32 short Ivey that don't work. Got all its parts except the two little V-springs that control the trigger to the hammer...I guess.
As it is about as valuable as a cap gun and not worth sinking any big dough in it to be repaired; does anyone know of a gunsmith who knows his stuff on these little Iveys?
The cylinder will detach when you break the top open.
Its the nickle plated black plastic grips and hammerless model.
Has to be early 1900 I would guess.
Seen one at a gunshow, its action worked really slick...don't know why mine won't behave.
Gunguy
Flhunter
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(1/13/02 4:17:43 pm)
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The cylinder is supposed to screw onto the barrel. So if yours is popping off when you break it open the threads of the cylinder or the threads under the barrel might be shot. I've seen them sell as high as $50 on AA's in that condition. I'd sell ever one I own for $50 a pop if I had a buyer for them.
AGunguy
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(1/13/02 6:09:40 pm)
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Naw, hunter. The cylinder has to unscrew counter clockwise...I think to remove it. Its OK. The problem is the damn V-springs I was talking about. And maybe the trigger leaf spring should be replaced. Parts are available from Numrich Gunparts. Trouble is, the people at Numrich don't know squat about these little parts and what goes where?
Tried order some stuff from them but it didn't fit or work for me.
I don't really care all that much about this junker, but like my guns to be able to shoot. It was given to me by my grocer who left it laying in his garage for years.
Gunguy
Flhunter
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(1/14/02 10:49:07 am)
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I misunderstood your other post. I thought that when you broke open the pistol the cylinder would fall off of the gun. I have seen quite a few complete guns sell on AA's in the $30 to $40 range if your interested in a few extra parts. On one of my Ivers the trigger return spring was broke, so I scrounged thru the garage and found a piece of metal well actually it was a gizmo for holding your CB mic onto the dash of your car and from that I made the flat spring for the trigger.
AntiqueDr
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(1/14/02 10:58:49 am)
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ezSupporter
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I'm guessing the problem is that the trigger does not return after you pull it? Does the cylinder rotate when the trigger is pulled?
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AGunguy
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(1/14/02 12:30:02 pm)
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I believe the problem is in the area where the pin holds the hand and the hammer, plus the V springs are gone, one is larger than the other and these springs hold these parts in relation to their function.
The cylinder does rotate when the trigger is pulled, but it is hard and rough as a cob. Then you have to pull the trigger back to its forward position.
Frankly, I don't know how to hook all these parts together when one pulls the trigger guard out of the frame to attach them. I've never seen this action in its proper placement.
That's why I need an Ivey Johnson expert to put this crapper back together for me.
GG
Edited by: AGunguy at: 1/14/02 12:33:00 pm
AntiqueDr
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(1/14/02 12:41:14 pm)
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ezSupporter
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The V-springs are for the sear and the hand (which IJ called the "lever").
If you want to send it down, I'll put it together for the cost of the parts and shipping.
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AGunguy
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(1/14/02 5:40:39 pm)
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Hey, that's a deal. Wait until I get out of the hospital and I'll see about sending it to you.
Can I send a disabled peace of junk like this through the regular mails?
GG