Vietnam 10 ga

[mikelburns]

My brother was with the Air Force 1st Mobile Communication group during Vietnam. He says he had a 10 ga shotgun. I'm trying to find make, model and the possibility of finding one as a gift. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[wv hillbilly]

never recall anyone saying they used a 10 ga.
just saying
Shotguns

The shotguns were used as an individual weapon during jungle patrol; infantry units were authorized a shotgun by TO & E (Table of Organization & Equipment). Shotguns were not general issue to all infantrymen, but were select issue, such as one per squad, etc.
Winchester Model 1912 pump-action shotgun was used by the Marines during the early stages of the war.
Ithaca 37 pump-action shotgun replaced every other shotgun in the field and armed the United States Marine Corps throughout the war.
Remington 870 pump-action shotgun used by the Marines Special Operations Weapon a modification for a Remington 870 which made it fully automatic

Remington 11-48 semi-automatic shotgun used by the Marines in small quantities
Winchester Model 1897 used by the Marines during the early stages of the war, but was later replaced by the Ithaca 37
Stevens Model 77E, pump-action shotgun used by Army and Marine forces in Southeast Asia. Almost 70,000 Model 77Es were procured by the military for use in SE Asia during the

[RJay]

If your brother used a 10 gauge shotgun in RVN, then it was a private purchase, not military issue.

[Alpo]

Hillbilly, I think you got some bad info there.

>Remington 870 pump-action shotgun used by the Marines Special Operations Weapon a modification for a Remington 870 which made it fully automatic<

I can see (and even know of) 1100s converted to full auto. But converting a PUMP to full auto? That's right up there with converting a revolver to full auto. Might be doable, but surely seems stupid.

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Hillbilly, I think you got some bad info there.

>Remington 870 pump-action shotgun used by the Marines Special Operations Weapon a modification for a Remington 870 which made it fully automatic<

I can see (and even know of) 1100s converted to full auto. But converting a PUMP to full auto? That's right up there with converting a revolver to full auto. Might be doable, but surely seems stupid.

I think the poster might've been thinking of the Ithaca M37. I'm aware of at least one such conversion back in the day. As to full auto revolvers; this was once purportedly done using a single action center fire as the basis. Rear portion of the cylinder was trimmed - much like the 45acp & half moon clip conversion done on Webley .455s, thus providing a greater gap between the frame's recoil plate and rear face of the cylinder. Firing pin was lengthened accordingly. The falling hammer and pin would move the cartridge forward, the cartridge would discharge as it came to a full stop against the cylinder's rear face, cartridge (probably with a punctured primer) would move aft upon discharge, recocking the hammer, and if the trigger was still being held back the cycle would repeat. Have to agree with the above statement that such a conversion would be really stupid. Can't remember where I read about the actual modification.

[Maine04657]

While I know of non that where standard issue the military loves to field test. Hey may very well have a had a test item. You MIGHT be able to get a copy of his records to see if he was issued a non standard arm but that would be a crap shoot itself.

[RJay]

His military records would have no entries of any weapon he may have been issued, ever, so far as I know. All weapon issue records are local and temporary and destroyed when no longer valid.

[Jim K]

No, no military records or personel files recorded weapons issue. There are freaks and experimental guns but the mililtary does not issue one-off toys; military weapons are tested and standardized, and generally the use of non standard weapons and ammunition is prohibited (though in some areas that has not always been enforced).

I know for a fact that as time goes by and memories get hazy, stories get "improved".

Jim

P.S. Did I ever tell you how I captured Adolf Hitler and Napoleon on the same raid into China in 1620?

JK

[goofy]

I never saw one while I was in (10 ga.)
As for making a pump shot gun full auto
I would have to see it to believe it.
Can't see how that is even possible. A semi yes but a pump no way.
Mike
And as for you and Hitler Jim I know that is BS because I never saw you there!
Unless you were the big guy that kept saying "KILL HIM JUST KILL HIM"

[Alpo]

I can see, possibly, issuing someone a SPAStic 12, as a "one-of" test. Because as long as it did not break, ammo is available.

But issuing a caliber/gauge that is not in the system? Ignoring the problem of keeping the gun working (because no one has any training on it), what are they going to feed it?

[nmckenzie]

[QUOTE Can't see how that is even possible. A semi yes but a pump no way.
[/QUOTE]

Hop on Google and tap in http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-auto-shotgun/. The item pictured was built up on an 870. The one I recollect being told about had an M37 as its basis.

[Alpo]

>"Both the SOW (Special Operations Weapon) and its magazine-fed Remington 870 predecessor (bottom) were products of mechanical wizard Carroll Childers, an engineer at the Naval Special Weapons Center. The 870 mod kit provided SEAL shotgunners with a quick-change magazine holding 20 rounds. The SOW was full-auto."<

That says to me TWO DIFFERENT GUNS. The SOW and its 870 predecessor. You know, like "the 1911 .45 automatic and its 38 Long Colt revolver predecessor". Or "the M1 Garand and its 1903 Springfield predecessor".

Just because the box-magazine fed 870 was used BEFORE the SOW (preceded it) does not mean that the SOW was derived from it.

[Old Grump]

To much excitement, chances of it being a 10 gauge are very slim and certainly not automatic. It may have been one of the modified guns like they used in WWII that slamfired and that is probably what the airman was thinking of. Especially if he was a non shooter and not used to firearms. Not really appropriate for security duty, that was a trench gun modification for close up and personal shooting.

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by Alpo

>Just because the box-magazine fed 870 was used BEFORE the SOW (preceded it) does not mean that the SOW was derived from it.

Good points, and I agree with you. The M37 mod story was related to me back around '69 or so.

[goofy]

Alpo I see what you are saying so you start with a pump rebuild it and change it around so it is a full auto.
And now you have a gun that is not what it was but one that is what it is.
And that is not a full auto pump but a full auto shotgun in fact the only thing on it that is the same as the original is the mod. # and receiver and maybe the barrel.
All I could think about was staying out of the forarms way when it shoots
Mike

[Skipper]

You thinking of the Remington 7188? It was developed from the 1100.
Or an Armalite AR-17:



Here's Childers' patent:

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publi...E&locale=en_EP

[Hawg]

The Winchester 97 and Ithaca 37 slamfire without modification. Hold the trigger down and work the slide and they fire every time the bolt is closed.

[Maine04657]

Originally Posted by RJay

His military records would have no entries of any weapon he may have been issued, ever, so far as I know. All weapon issue records are local and temporary and destroyed when no longer valid.

My fathers do?

[RJay]

Mine don't, My 201 showed what weapons I was qualified on, but nowhere does it show what individual weapon I was ever issued. Perhaps the other services do things differently but somehow I doubt it.Sometimes a file packet will have items other than those that are supposed to be in it. I remember setting down at the personnel office for a record review and the clerk pulling out loads of records and giving them.to me, to do with what ever my little heard desired. It is quite possible that a weapon receipt has sometimes wound up in the wrong file ( instead of the trash can ), but it is not standard or authorized.

[Maine04657]

My fathers list all his issue firearms except the Thompson he had on board ship as it was a unit weapon not his personal. I asked my dad about this and he says most records do not list these things. I figured this was standard. I am the son and grandson of life members of the Navy but I did not join as they would not let me be on a sub..

[Jim K]

Just as a general comment, it should be quite possible (though perhaps not really feasible) to convert a pump shotgun to semi-auto; that is what manufacturers have done by using a piston surrounding the magazine tube. And any semi-auto gun can be made full auto with more or less difficulty. But such contraptions were not issued to American troops.

As for records, I was a company and battalion armorer and my weapon inventory and assignment records and cards were "ephemera" which is a fancy word for "trash when obsolete". When a soldier transferred out, I trashed his weapons card. When weapons were turned in for repair or replacement, the inventory list was thrown away and a new one prepared (no computers in those days). Nothing went in the soldier's 201 file about the weapon his was issued.

Jim

[RJay]

Gasp!!, Do you mean there was really a time with out computers ???, Next you will saying every thing had to be done using old manual typewriters instead of word processors. Oh the shame of it.

[Old Grump]

Originally Posted by RJay

Gasp!!, Do you mean there was really a time with out computers ???, Next you will saying every thing had to be done using old manual typewriters instead of word processors. Oh the shame of it.

The shame of it was watching me type on those old typewriters. Even at 5 words a minute on a good day I still had to go back and do a lot of erasing...No whiteout for us. I hate to think what anybody who had to read my documents thought about the mess I handed in. If it was important it wasn't given to me for typing.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Old Grump

The shame of it was watching me type on those old typewriters. Even at 5 words a minute on a good day I still had to go back and do a lot of erasing...No whiteout for us. I hate to think what anybody who had to read my documents thought about the mess I handed in. If it was important it wasn't given to me for typing.

I'd have just gone back and typed X's over the misspelled stuff, course that might not have been allowed.

[Brass Tacks]

in our arsenal we had a 12 ga pump, I cannot remember the manufacturer for certain but I think it was an Ithaca. What stood out on this particular weapon was the absence of a trigger. The trigger guard was intact but no trigger. When a round was chambered, it went boom. I guess under certain circumstances this would be useful.

One day the 1st sgt had a FNG (not me) inventory the arms room. To make a long story short, he was damn lucky he didn't kill someone, a wall locker took the brunt of the blast.