Mosin Nagant question????

[gvw3]

My sons friend bought one of these at Cableas a few months ago. I thought he was wasting his money. It took them 2 hours to clean it up. That weekend we went to the range and he took it with.

This thing shot as good as my sons 308 Savage bolt. I was very impressed. Where else can you get a good hunting rifle for $100.00. If they go on sale again I will buy one for myself.

[terryu1]

Or you could just win one here like I did from the great folks that run this site. I just today bought another 100 rounds surplus ammo to run though it this weekend. I just joined a new gun club and will go to that range. Nice ammo, looks clean from local dealer. Packed 10 in a box already in stripper clips for $4.95 each. I will soon just bite the bullet as it were and get myself a tin of ammo.

I love this gun. It is a hoot to shoot. I bought a recoil pad for it but after shooting a while I took it back off to keep stock. Not bad recoil IMHO.

[polishshooter]

I apologize if I repeat something that has been posted, I admit I got in late and din't read every post....mea culpa, mea culpa, etc.

At the Indy 1500 show this past weekend there were dealers still selling basic Izzy late model refurbed M91/30s with bayonet, ammo pouch, sling, and accessories for $99.00...

BUT I also heard this MAY be the last bunch for a while so prices WILL be going up.

A far cry from the 3/$99 days, right guys?

Basically, yes, you are looking for the difference between Tulas and Izshevsk, but there is more to it that that. Tula made a LOT of M91s but during the 91/30 process made a lot fewer...and rumor had it the Tulas were more accurate so more used for Snayperskayas, but that is unfounded...the Russians made 800,000 91/30 sniper rifles during WWII and yes used the ones tested as most accurate, but there were proportionately as many Izzys as Tulas so good ones are good ones....plus a LOT of early dated Tulas were actually M91s CONVERTED to 91/30 config at the Ishevsk plant, so the name means not much. Plus the Tula machinery was shipped out to Ishevsk so it didn't fall into the German hands in 1942 during the Nazi advance on Stalingrad and all rifles made after 1942 with the Tula Star were actually made on Tula machinery at Ishezk with Ishevsk workers, so go figure.

But finding aone with a Tula star is worth more to buyers, since they are more rare than the Izzy wreath with hammer and sickle...but they are no BETTER than the Izzys...at least as shooters.

Pre-1936, the receivers were hexagonal, like all M91s were before that. Many are "converted" M91s as well (We will get into "Transitions" later)

Post 1936, the receivers were all "round," which some people will say were not as strong as the hex ones (they lie) but the Hex ones bring more money.

The bad news is the jobbers and distributers have figured this out so their wholesale price has gone up on hexes and old ones...not long ago the hexes were the same price...

Not long ago as well you could find "transitions," as well, at the same price. Even though the M91/30 was "technically" adopeted in 1930, so therefore all receivers should be marked 1930 or above, you CAN find some with dates that are earlier. ( I have owned several, dated from 1918 to 1929)

While there WERE some "Cossack" 91s converted to 91/30, which are worth a ton of money, not ALL pre-1930 91/30s are "Cossacks" although the seller will want you to BELIEVE it....

They are "Transitions...." While both major arsenals started building 91/30s NEW in 1930, they also converted many M91s they had on hand to 91/30s. I like "Transitions," and they are worth a little (or a lot?) more. Basically they are any 91/30 with a date (on top of the receiver not on the bottom tang) earlier than 1930.

But even though chances are any of the refurbished 91/30s left are all Ishevsk, there is still enough variation I havre seen between them to attract a look....


First, is it a "correct" "Wartime" or not? Pre-mid-1942, you will find they wikl have nicely machined, low walled, round recievers in a nicely matching inletted stock, with metal escutcheons around the sling slots.

After about mid-1942, until the end of the war, you will find more and more "Shortcuts" in the manufacturing as the war progressed....the 'High Wall" receiver to avoid the extra milling (Rumor is they are stronger) rough machining marks no longer buffed out before blueing...."correct" stock (will have either just a hole in the rear wood and a metal reinforced bottom slot in the front, or later, (late 1943-1944) just a slot in the wood in front too)

Plus you can find variations in the metal in the stock, such as the handguards, which may have blued sheetmetal, brass, or copper metal.

Plus the Stocks of the wartimes have a lot different shape and inletting than the pre-wars....

I have a 1942 pre-war Izzy and a 1943 Wartime Izzy both with brass handguard ends and it is neat to see the differences between them.....


But unlike the Jap or German "Last Ditch" rifles where production quality slipped along with the finish, the Russian "Wartime" rifles skimped on finish and workmanship, but NOT on function....my wartime is my BEST shooter...

Pretty much all the 91/30s coming in over the past 5 years or so havce been arsenal refurbished ones in storage for the past 40-50 years....and now most of the "Collector" ones are long gone or being sold for a lot more than they used to be.....

Like I doubt I will find another converted "ex-Snayperskaya" I bought for $33 that I sold for $55....BEFORE I knew what that stock repair on the side was and what those filled in holes in the receiver that the stock repair didn't completely cover were for....


But all are still good shooters which WILL appreciate with age.

I have bought and sold maybe 50 or 60 of them over the years, and now am down to only 4....funny though, none from the current "refurbed" batches, and two of them from my 3/$99 "dropped in the rubble only once" condition that were Transitions....

But I looked at EVERY one of them at the show this weekend...and if I find one that trips my trigger I would happily spend $100-$150 for ANOTHER one...

[jyantkilr]

Originally Posted by KoRnymthaFR

So what do you guys think of the Mosins coming from Big5? are they any good or should I get mine from AIM or some other place?

Mine shoot great from Big 5, plus they don't screen them. You can get lucky if you search. I got an antique 1897 Tula receiver and a 1904 Izhevsk, barrels 1926/1925 respectively. Where else can you get an Antique rifle these days for $89 bucks?

[skeet1]

big steve,
You might consider going to a gun show the next time there is one near you. I bought my 1938 Izzy at a local show for $110.00 and was able to look at all they had and picked the one I thought was the best.

[polishshooter]

just a note, a pre-1930 date does NOT automatically mean "ex-Dragoon." In fact few Dragoons were so converted, and any that were have long been scarfed up by collectors.

Most "91/30's" with pre-1930 dates are actually better called "Transition" rifles, and were actually just older M91s converted to 91/30 specs after 1930.

I have owned about 10 of them, still own 2, 0ne dated 1920 and another dated 1929. I wish I still had the sweet 1928 Tula somebody made me a good offer on... and none were actually an "Ex-Dragoon," although I WISHED each were when I bought them....

But "Transitions" are neat in their own way, abnd besides a lot of Czarist markings from the pre-91/30 days left on many of them, they all differ slightly in the conversion, many apparently done as "one offs" at various arsenals and shops, and not mass produced.

But all of the differences you find on any other Mosin Nagant, such as pre-1936, pre-war, wartime, post war rearsenaled, etc, can be found even on these "new"ones, which makes them just as neat to own and research and shoot as the "old" ones.

[polishshooter]

And as far as buying on line, yes you are buying a "pig in the poke," but generally for LESS than the going retail rate. While I have bought some GREAT rifles on line, I have also bought some not-so-great ones as well, but I have NEVER sold one of the "non-keepers" without making a profit, usually the difference between what I paid and the going retail rate at least, so there is not the risk you think there is.

Of course, I have my CRFFL, and usually "pick up" from SOG or AIM to save shipping, so you would have to also figure in the transfer FFL fee, besides the shipping to be sure you are getting the good deal.


But I too have bought some of my collection from stores and gunshops, WITHOUT using my CRFFL. For example my M38 cavalry carbine is the last of about 12 I owned, all in great shape but the only one I found that shot as well as my M44s, and it was from a gun shop! I would buy one, shoot it, sell it for more than I paid for it, buy another, etc, until the one I found that shot well I probably had NOTHING in it considering the $10-$20 profit I made on each of the others that looked FINE, but shot 8-10" groups at BEST at 100 yds The one I finally kept will do about 2-3" like my M44s, from a rest.

My Yugo SKS 59/66 was on sale at Dunhams for $99, when my CRFFL wholesale price was $99 too! The tax I paid was the extra I paid for the ability to pick the best of 3 they had in stock.

My Yugo M57, and my CZ-82 I also bought on sale at a gunshop, for a little more than I could have gotten with my CRFFL, but again, I got to pick the "best of the litter," not what SOG or AIM gave me....

[Little Rooster]

what is the deal with the Hex receivers?

[sidewayskid]

Some 40 years had lapsed since I was involved in shooting.
A short time ago for several different reasons, the decision was made to get back in to the sport, target only. I am not a wealthy sportsman, so the price of ammo, as well as the rifle were a concern. As a kid, my favorite was my 30-06 Springfield. Following examination of weapon , ammo prices and my bank account, it was evident that the old favorite was not going to happen.
Having no knowledge, the web and forums were scoured. After some time, the decision was made to try the 91/30. All the reasons listed in this thread were key. Ammo price (later ,ballistics) price and availability, parts, etc.
Two were purchased. One has been left in Holy Grail condition. The matching numbers,
slop-o-coat finish and toy kit are complete. Reading the concerns about preserving the breed, not to butcher history, this will be put up and shot once and a while. These thoughts are understood. There are only 17 million of them. The price has rocketed up to $125 to $300.?
The other one is my shooter. My goal being to become proficient at 500 meters.
Initially I questioned if the old 91/.30 or myself were capable. Ballistics say yes.
A you tube post that most have probably seen, 3 hits of 5 at an 18” circle, 1000 yards
tell me the 91/30 is capable. Given proper set up, it is plus or minus pilot error.
Set up for me………..
ATI pad installed with the butt trimmed to yield a LOP of 13 1/8”.
Slop-o-coat finish was removed. Refinished in lighter tone. A very nice piece of wood.
Budget trigger fix, shim and new spring were installed.
The action was bedded in the stock.
NOT ALLOWED yielded a kit with entry level scope, mount, sling and the ATI pad..

Total investment at this point is $170. First outing 100 yards, last five shots, three on the 9 black border. One 1” from the dead center 10, one 1” from that. Finish should be 1-2 MOA.
What did I learn……………? Retailers are of these are not the same. Some pay almost nothing from the importer and shovel it out the door. Some pay more to the importer and take some concern in what they sell to you. The direction that was taken by me, was suggested by the retailer. Black OPS Gear was a help.
It is not necessary to be a wealthy sportsman to be good shooter. If I was well to do…….
probably buy another 91/30.

[kermit]

do you have a C&R 03FFL ? aim surplus 2 Mosin Nagant M91/30 delivered to your door $202 for both. why buy 1 when you can buy 2?

[kermit]

a real Mosin Nagant M91/30 sniper from Rguns is on my bucket list.

[kermit]

Originally Posted by KoRnymthaFR

So what do you guys think of the Mosins coming from Big5? are they any good or should I get mine from AIM or some other place?

both of my Mosin Nagant M1891-30 1938 Tula and 1942 Izhevsk are from Big5.. 42 had crappy stock otherwise really really good. 38 Tula had brass ends on handguard and prewar sling slot escuthceons. nice bore on both. if i was going to buy 1 from Big5 it would be 1930-1939 Tula.

[mogunner]

As one of the sponsors of a Mosin Nagant forum, what I can tell you for sure is this. Prices are creeping up. Whether or not they are about to "run out", none of the importers will know. With production figures estimated at somewhere around 15-17 million 91/30's, I'd wager that there's plenty for everyone. Demand has jumped up, which is why the prices are too. Look at the bigger dealers, SOG, AIM, Century, and you'll see the prices remain around $90-$100. SOG currently has the hex's priced at a very reasonable $99.95, but if you don't have at least an 03FFL you won't be able to get them shipped straight to you.

Another thing I can tell you is that these things have so many variations that there isn't room to define all of them. If you take a look at the 7.62x54r.net website, you'll see pages just listing the different SIGHTS that they had, what year, what arsenal, etc etc etc.

Also, there is the dreaded Mosinitus. Seems that once you buy one, you kinda want another, then another, then before long you spend all your time searching for that one year made in a specific arsenal!

And the original rifles were made in France, in the Chatellerault factory due to the Russian having startup problems in Tula, Izhevsk and Sestroryetsk. During WWI contracts were also given to New England Westinghouse and Remington for 1.8 and 1.5 million rifles, respectively. Those were never shipped however and were sold on the civilian market as well as used by the US military for training purposes. There are Dragoon's, and Cossack rifles, and don't even get started on the captures by other nations that were refurbished and put into battle by that countries military! They have a long and interesting history, and while right now they are inexpensive, I think most agree there's no time like the present to pick a few of them up, if nothing else get one of the carbines, the four foot fireball usually scares the heck out of a lot of the people on the range!

[gandog56]

Originally Posted by kermit

do you have a C&R 03FFL ? aim surplus 2 Mosin Nagant M91/30 delivered to your door $202 for both. why buy 1 when you can buy 2?

Because l ready own like 12? It would need to be something rare or unusual for me to buy more.

Although I might be interested if they were Tula Hexes.

[kermit]

Originally Posted by gandog56

Because l ready own like 12? It would need to be something rare or unusual for me to buy more.

Although I might be interested if they were Tula Hexes.

T 53 from AIM for $119 on sale now.

[Iron Eagle]

Originally Posted by KoRnymthaFR

So what do you guys think of the Mosins coming from Big5? are they any good or should I get mine from AIM or some other place?

I got mine from J&G sales online. My 91/30 has a round receiver, laminate stock, was made in 1943, and appears to be unfired. With my c&r, I paid $127 shipped, and that includes the select option. I like it. It is a looker.

[flyingAMT]

I bought a Mosin 91/30 mail order from Aim Surplus in 2008 for $69 plus shipping and FFL charge plus a can of 880 rounds of 1970s surplus ammo. Best $220 I've ever spent. Not a bucket list thing, that was a AR15 for me, but the rifle is great fun and usually gets the most interest at the range. The surplus ammo is fine for plinking, but I found it difficult to hold a decent group with it at 100yds. Tried w/ and w/o the bayonet and the groups were terrible, nearly 1 foot diameter all over the place. I had some Wolf brand soft point non-corrosive primer stuff that did shoot much better, but of course cost more too. Remember, all the surplus ammo is corrosive primer, so clean the gun well ASAP after you use it. Mojo makes some "drop-in" ghost ring sites for the Mosin but they cost as much as the rifle ($70). I also bought an synthetic montecarlo stock, but had to remove it to shoot MBA (Military Bolt Action) with a friend, since the rifle was required to be in original condition. The synthetic stock is decent, but doesn't fit as well as I had hoped...The rifle is fine in stock condition, just wanted a more modern feel, and the rubber butt pad was a plus too. My BIL bought a Hex Receiver Mosin from the same company and had no problems either. Both guns had dark rifling at first, but after a few shots and cleanings, they are starting to brighten up. The Mosin is worth whatever you're willing to pay for it. $129 from a local shop doesn't sound far off to me, but $150 is pushing it. $100 is great deal at a gun show or local shop. With 17 million made, they should be around for a while, but for $100 why wait?

[MadScotsMan]

I bought an Izzy M38 and a boatload of ammo from a relative for $100. Best $100 I ever spent. A fair amount of elbow grease, tung oil, fine grit and fine steel wool, and the thing looks great and shoots even better. It's really handy and will take any critter in North America. Muzzle flash is spectacular, recoil is somewhat stout, but it is surprisingly accurate, even with crappy military ammo. Plus, there's a fair amount of aftermarket goodies to be had for it. Even at $129, you can't go wrong with a Mosin.

[Fast Forward]

I Bought a 1943 Izzy From C&R about a Year ago,,Nice rifle to mess around with and a vey good shooter Paid about 80.00 for it,,just make sue you do a proper clean up

[gandog56]

Originally Posted by jack404

Only two arsenals built M91/30s in the Soviet Union, Tula and Izhevsk.

Tula is prefered , dunno why , but have always brought a slightly higher price i've noticed

Because Tula made less of them and was supposed to be a bit better quality. Same thing with hex receivers and round receivers, people prefer the hexes.

[gandog56]

Originally Posted by kermit

T 53 from AIM for $119 on sale now.

The Chinese used some kind of cheap wood for their stocks. They almost never look good.

[jstgsn]

this may answer any questions you have...

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by TXWolf

I agree on all these statements. Buying a rifle like this online is most likely a bad idea. I've bought plenty of things online, so I know how these things can run. Buying the same rifle at a local gun store is your best bet. That way you can know exactly what your buying after making your own examinations of it, and it most likely would be cheaper too. Shipping costs is what always got me when I ordered online.

Though, I'm not with questions of my own. I came across a small family owned gun shop that have 4 Mosin Nagant M91/30's for sale, they charged $120 for each one. I due have to admit, getting a rifle like this one is something on my bucket-list, but then it dawned on me that I'm 25, and I'm already trying to make a bucket-list while I'm in good health. Anyway, long story short, I decided to wait a while before thinking of buying it again. However, I do need to ask, if buying one of these rifles would be considered a "once-in-a-lifetime" opportunity. Because I just have this feeling that this may be my only chance of getting one, so most likely, would I be right, or wrong in waiting till later in the future to buy one?
There are some other thing's I'd like to ask as well. The reason I'd like to get this rifle is not only to have it, but I planned on hunting with it. I spoke to the shop employees at the store, as well as some friends who know more about guns than me. They all said that based on my area, "soft ammo" is the only ammo legal when it comes to hunting, not hard like full-metal-jackets or sniper rounds. However They also said that becasue of my states hunting regulations about Muzzle Velocity, a Mosin Nagant may be illegal to hunt with becasue of high velocity, even with soft ammo. So whats the velocity of a Mosin Nagant M91/30 with both hard and soft ammo? And if there are any hunters here who live in North Texas, what's the velocity limit for hunting? If I can't use this rifle, buying it may be a waste, even though I'm collecting the rifle as well.

The russians alone made 30-40 MILLION of these rifles. The russians stopped using them in the 1980's. Don't worry about hunting ammo(soft lead point)- lots of it made by BEar and other russian companies. Even US firms make some in reloadedable boxer primed non -corrosive ammo. The iron sights on most of the "long" Mosins go to 2000 meters. Soo do NOT snap shoot game and know what is BEHIND the game if you miss your shot. Do lots of range time. the M44 carbines go to 1500 meters. The effective range is about 1000 meters with a inexpensive scope.

The Finns made a couple of million and are prized by shooter and collectors (they are better made with good scandanavian steel or belgian steel.

I have one russian mosin rifle made in 1923 - I do not have a problem hunting with it. I do not consider it a collector piece- which I suspect someone will tell me it is.

[armenjs802]

Checkout Classic Arms, they still have them for 99 or Aims, they were out but check again. You might look in for J@G and Widener's as well.
good luck.

[PMK]

Have a 1928 Tula hex. Counter bored once. Does not shoot as accurate as my '43 Izzy "Salt Mine" gun. But it has better balance since its furniture is the lighter Siberian Beech. The '43 is pine. Tula is supposedly more accurate so they say. '43 would shoot clays at 100 yds. all day long tho. The '28 is more detailed and she told me she loves me, so she is my favorite. The '43 Izzy was probably more accurate because she probably never fired in the line of duty. She was used by guards in the mines. Buy the ones you can put hands on. And watch out for those as well as some people will run bore sheen down them to try and throw you off. No pits? Then your good to go. They are all pretty accurate across the board.