Jew,Christian, Mormon, a childs question

[76Highboy]

Originally Posted by KenV

Yup. Mormons believe all humans (including Jesus Christ) are the sons and daughters of God. Even Satan was a son of god. Since we all have the same father, we are all brothers and sisters. You appear to be saying that anyone who believes we do not all share the same spiritual father cannot be a Christian. On what do you base your belief?

And what does this have to do with justice, mercy, grace, salvation, and Christ's atonement, which is the basis of Christianity.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Here we see that the Word was the beginning and it was with God, and it was God. Then in 14 the word became flesh. This indicates that Jesus and God are one. Jesus is the son of God because God brought himself down to earth as the messiah of the world. Jesus is not the son of God because he formed him in the same way he formed Satan. He is the son of God because he is the savior. Satan was an angelic being. He was of no more important as any other angel. Jesus however, is God incarnate. God, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Satan is no where in there. Satan being a brother to Jesus is false and it is misplacing Jesus down to Satan's level and that is not lifting Jesus to his proper position. If we don't receive Jesus as savior than we have missed the meaning of the Christ and we can't teach that Jesus is satan's brother in anyway shape or form.

Where do you pull scripture that they are brothers?

[KenV]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

I am not brain washed.

If you say so. And yet you believe in fairy tales about Mormons. You're welcome to call it whatever you want.

I shared with a Mormon for almost a year and I asked him if he was saved. He said he did not know. That is the same question I have asked many Mormon's and that is the answer I get.

Mormons believe no one knows who is saved and that ONLY Christ knows. Mormons believe claiming to know otherwise is the height of arrogance since by doing so you are usurping Christ's role as the ONLY judge of mankind. You may as well claim that you know when Christ's second coming will be. MANY have claimed they know. ALL were proven wrong. ONLY Christ knows.

The last Mormon I shared with had to tell me that the Bible is actually not all the way true.

Mormons believe the Bible is the word of God "as far as it is translated correctly". There are literally HUNDREDs of different Bible translations, perhaps thousands. Not all are true. Some are downright corrupt. If you believe that any book that has the word "Holy Bible" on the cover is the word of god, you are welcome to that belief. Mormons don't share it.

As for my being brain washed. Jesus is my Savior. Jesus dies for my sins. Through my belief in Jesus Christ I am saved through God's grace. Am I going to heaven,,,, absolutely yes. I am not brain washed.

If you say so. If you believe you can usurp Christ's role as your personal judge, you're welcome to that belief. Mormons don't share it. And I have no idea if you believing you can usurp Christ's role as your personal judge makes you brainwashed or not. I do know I never made that claim nor implied it.

As far as Matt Slick being an ax preacher, why don't you get on his radio show and prove him wrong then?

Why you ask? I'll provide three reasons:
1. That would not be a very Christian thing to do.
2. I don't really care one whit what Matt Slick claims, thinks, believes, or preaches. I do care what Christ taught.
3. Mormons believe contention is of satan. "Proving" someone wrong on a radio show appears to me to be a near perfect example of contention.

[jack404]

Highboy , never asked yourself have i lived up to my Salvation ? dont think it can be lost ?

i dunno , i pray it cant be but worried it could be, and i aint Mormon ..

i'm so glad your sound in yours

me i'm sorta trying to do what Christ commanded

hoping i make up for things past

[KenV]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

I don't know if any particular individual is or isn't going to heaven unless they accept Jesus into their lives and can testify to that

May I point out a possible contradiction? When you claim you know you are going to heaven, you are claiming you know a "particular individual is going to heaven". Mormons find that arrogant.

We should all know where were we stand with Jesus.

Mormons believe we should all make the attempt to know, but NONE can know because only Christ knows. Perhaps Christ will find that your heart is not right and you are NOT in a state of grace because you smugly and publicly condemn others to eternal damnation, while smugly claiming to be able to usurp Christ's role as the ONLY judge of your soul.

But when a Mormon says I don't know because they are unsure about their works then there is a problem with doctrine.

Mormons believe that anyone who claims to know has "a problem with doctrine" because Christ is the ONLY judge of all mankind. Mormons believe we are no more worthy to judge ourselves than we are worthy to judge others. You appear to believe you can judge yourself AND others. You are welcome to that belief. Mormons don't share it.

Are you saying that if a Mormon does not know if they are going to heaven because of a lack of work that is not a doctrine problem?

I never stated, suggested, or implied any such thing. Lack of works does NOT prevent ANYone from enjoying ANY of god's grace or his mercy. No one can earn his grace or his mercy. It is a gift. We can choose to accept or reject that gift. The state of our hearts and NOT the state of our works determine whether we have accepted or rejected that gift. And Mormons believe that ONLY Christ is worthy to judge the state of our heart.

I don't condemn anyone to heaven or hell. I know I am going, and when another person does not know, then it's a pretty good idea they aren't either. That is what the Bible teaches us.

Really? I'd like to see the Bible verse that teaches the doctrine that a human can judge anyone's heart, including their own.

[76Highboy]

If you want to bash me that is cool. I am thick skinned. I still say that your belief is merely a religion. I believe what I believe because Jesus lives in my heart. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one. I don't tell myself I am saved, God has told me that I am saved through John 3:16. If I told myself that I were saved then that would mean I was self righteous. I am not self righteous. I am made righteous through Christ Jesus into God by the grace of God. It is simply that. As far as me believing fairy tales, I repeat what Mormons tell me they believe. It is not my fault they are not properly versed. I know this. I have studied some Hebrew (enough to get confused) and the truth that you are denying in many of the translations that what we have today is wrong. I have the King James, the New King James, and the NIV, and the New American Standard and none of them teach that Jesus and satan are brothers and and they all teach salvation. They also tell me one more thing. They all tell me that through John 3:16 I am saved. Once again I did not say that I am saved. God's word told me and who is God's Word. God's Word is Jesus. Who is Jesus? He is God incarnate. No, he is not Satan's brother.


Oh, one last thing. We don't find Jesus, he finds us.

If you want to believe a religion, so be it. As for myself, I am a man after Gods own heart and I believe his Word.

[jack404]

can you answer anything i've asked you Highboy ?

or you playing like the lefties we get here , seriously ..

i know it gets your side across but it is a forum

not bashing you , trying to reason with you

but if you just ignore everything then its not reasoning is it ?

its listening to your say so of how things be

and your way says I aint a Christian ...

and i dont get a say

again

just like the lefties ... so valid comparison eh ..

but like them you forget you also effect others

maybe like the lefties that dont matter as long as your point is across

i dunno

i see billions of folks across the planet not being up to your standards

half the forum maybe ..

maybe you dont see it , but its not just mormons that fit your rules

but 60% of Christendom

and just when Christianity is facing its greatest threat, and possible extinction as a functioning faith unless it becomes some half way islamic joint faith

and i notice the main stream churches lining up to hold iftar dinners and gay rights councils and behold whats in the bible to not matter in the new age

but i'm a heratic too so whats my thoughts matter eh ?

[KenV]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

If you want to bash me that is cool. I am thick skinned.

Hmmm. May I politely suggest you look up the meaning of the word "projection". You have declared Mormons (and others) to be "not Christian", to be "cursed", to believe in faulty doctrine, and to be doomed to hell fire for eternity. If that's not "bashing" I don't know what is.

Now please describe where I have "bashed" you, your opinions, or your beliefs. I have certainly corrected your false assertions of Mormon beliefs, but the last I heard that was not "bashing".

I still say that your belief is merely a religion. I believe what I believe because Jesus lives in my heart. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one. I don't tell myself I am saved, God has told me that I am saved through John 3:16.

If you believe that's what John 3:16 means, you're welcome to your belief. Mormons don't share it. Another difference is that you also believe that your interpretation of John 3:16 gives you the power to declare who is Christian and who is not, and who is saved and who is not. Mormons (and many other Christians) find such a view arrogant and unChrist-like.

If I told myself that I were saved then that would mean I was self righteous.

From my perspective, that is exactly what you have done. John 3:16 states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. LOTS of people "believe in him", including human scum of the earth. If you think that's sufficient, be my guest. I just ask that you consider that the Bible also teaches that devils "believe in him." If you want to believe that you'll be sharing your mansions in heaven with devils, be my guest. Mormons don't share your belief.

I am not self righteous.

If you say so. But you're doing a lot of denying when I have not accused you of anything. Why is that? Guilt perhaps?

They all tell me that through John 3:16 I am saved. Once again I did not say that I am saved. God's word told me

Very well. Then by that same word devils are saved and you'll be sharing your heaven with devils. Enjoy your heaven. Mine is nothing like that.

One last thing. I have many friends that are ex-Mormon including a direct relative.

I've talked to many many people who claim to be "ex-Mormons." Almost without exception, none had even a basic grasp of Mormon theology. Like your claim of Mormons believing that mankind is saved by our works. That is utterly false.

Oh, one last thing. We don't find Jesus, he finds us.

Ahh, you like the Calvinist approach, huh? You are saved because Jesus has "chosen" to find you, and Mormons are "cursed" not because they have failed to find Jesus, but because Jesus has refused to find them. And you don't find that in the least bit arrogant?

As for myself, I am a man after Gods own heart and I believe his Word.

Wow. You declare yourself to be not only certainly saved, but "a man after God's own heart." I know of no one in the Bible who had the arrogance to declare that of themselves.

What's doubly fascinating is that that term was used in both the Old and the New Testament to describe David, before he became king. Later, AFTER he was made king, he became so arrogant that he committed adultery AND murder. If this "man after God's own heart" who became an adulterer and murderer is in your little corner of heaven, I sincerely hope you can enjoy this heaven that is populated with devils, murderers, and adulterers when you arrive there. But I fear that the heaven you have created is both barren and sterile.

[ampaterry]

Cool it, guys.

I started to delete a bunch of posts that were OUT OF LINE, but all have been responded to so very well that I decided to leave them, as their errors have already been exposed.

Let's have no more of this claiming that YOU aren't saved, or HE is damned.

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

What is this belief about good Mormons getting their own planet?

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Here we see that the Word was the beginning and it was with God, and it was God. Then in 14 the word became flesh. This indicates that Jesus and God are one. Jesus is the son of God because God brought himself down to earth as the messiah of the world. Jesus is not the son of God because he formed him in the same way he formed Satan. He is the son of God because he is the savior. Satan was an angelic being. He was of no more important as any other angel. Jesus however, is God incarnate. God, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Satan is no where in there. Satan being a brother to Jesus is false and it is misplacing Jesus down to Satan's level and that is not lifting Jesus to his proper position. If we don't receive Jesus as savior than we have missed the meaning of the Christ and we can't teach that Jesus is satan's brother in anyway shape or form.

Where do you pull scripture that they are brothers?

Satan is a spirit always will be a spirit since he lead a rebellion to gain Fathers glory and usurp our Lord Jesus plan in that WE might have the right to CHOOSE right from wrong. Satan promised that ALL would be saved BUT he wanted Fathers glory. (sound like some politicos we know eh??
SPIRIT brothers - which is WHY The Evil one and his followers were cast OUT even one third of the host of heaven. Where they will NEVER obtain a corpreal body except by possessing one of OUR bodies. Remember in the New Testament that our Lord cast out "many Devils" from a Man?? Where did the evil spirits go?? Into a heard of swine. Those "human" spirits rather than have NO body went into a heard of swine. What happened to the swine? These "human spirits" drove the swine over a cliff in madness. Their spirits and the swines bodies were Not compatible. Think about it

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Satan was an Angel, Jesus is God. big diference.

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

What is this belief about good Mormons getting their own planet?

"good" people have that right it is called Eternal Progression. Given what we know about the Universe and its MILLIONS of planets AND if Father is the creator of same. Do not you think that we humans IF we progress far enough HE would want us to be care takers of the same??

Quite frankly I will probably end being an "administering angel to YOUR family given my track record so far

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

Satan was an Angel, Jesus is God. big diference.

I thought I just explained that. Jesus is our LORD the first born our path to atonement for our sins and THE path back to Father. Jesus and Father are two seperate entities as is the holy spirit. Three distinct entiies. From a physics & science view point (Father's laws of the Universe which we are trying to understand and use) the three being ONE makes no sense to me. But that is my thinking

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Originally Posted by targetacqmgt

"good" people have that right it is called Eternal Progression. Given what we know about the Universe and its MILLIONS of planets AND if Father is the creator of same. Do not you think that we humans IF we progress far enough HE would want us to be care takers of the same??

Quite frankly I will probably end being an "administering angel to YOUR family given my track record so far

In a word, no, it is not for us to be a deity on some other planet. But this belief does lend itself nicely back to the whole “acts” thing. Be good and you can have a planet. Isn’t salvation enough?

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

In a word, no, it is not for us to be a deity on some other planet. But this belief does lend itself nicely back to the whole “acts” thing. Be good and you can have a planet. Isn’t salvation enough?

For some that is ALL we will get. For those who have tried to emulate the teachings of OUR Lord to the maximum well that is beyond me- YOU will most likely get the offer. However Father is still Father and YOU still have the choice to reject the offer. NOONE will take that right from you. Accept or reject the CHOICE is yours. A plan that was given to you through the sacrifice of the Atoning One.

And yes HE finds you usually in the deepest darkest parts of your life.

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

No matter how good you are, how much you are like Christ. Because of Adam at the end of the day you are nothing but a filthy sinner in need of God’s grace to be saved. You cannot be a God ever.

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

No matter how good you are, how much you are like Christ. Because of Adam at the end of the day you are nothing but a filthy sinner in need of God’s grace to be saved. You cannot be a God ever.

Ryan Ryan we ae NOT resposible for Adam's "sins"
he and he alone was. You and I are resposible for OUR sins. I have enough of those that I do not need Adam's. Doesn't that makes sense? If you have children have you not looked into a babies eyes and see nothing but innocence?? At least till they get old enough to take money from mom's purse and dad's wallet to buy worldly things or just seek out "what everybody else is doing?? After all it THE thing to do right? what everybody else is doing?? So many parents today had the same attitude growing up "do it if it feels good" THEY CHOSE that path and now they are inheriting the whirlwind of the inequities of their grown children and wonder what they did wrong? (I AM guilty of just this My son has become his father and I lament my example.)

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Everything you are saying is simply not true for Christianity..

[01brian]

We have at least 40 churches around here, maybe more. They all agree that at least 75% of the other churches have it wrong.

To some degree, I bet we all miss it, but I know I sure don't have the answers...I'm learning each day that I didn't know as much as I thought I did the day before...and sometimes its downright embarassing!!

Anyway, Jack, I appreciate your comments. They really spoke to me. I thought reading through this it was a pretty good discussion...NO where on the net could anyone talk about stuff like this without it getting totally out of hand.
B

[Double D]

Originally Posted by KenV

Yup. Mormons believe all humans (including Jesus Christ) are the sons and daughters of God. Even Satan was a son of god. Since we all have the same father, we are all brothers and sisters. You appear to be saying that anyone who believes we do not all share the same spiritual father cannot be a Christian. On what do you base your belief?

And what does this have to do with justice, mercy, grace, salvation, and Christ's atonement, which is the basis of Christianity.

This and this alone is enough for me to realize that I could never follow the mormon teachings. It goes completely against the teachings of the christian faith. So, for me, I immediately feel something is wrong and reject this doctrine.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

What is this belief about good Mormons getting their own planet?

It is another urban myth.

Mormons believe that humans can, by making and keeping covenants, become co-heirs with Christ in ALL that the Father has. This is a Biblical concept.

Our Heavenly Father is a god. If his only begotten son, Jesus, is heir to ALL that the father has, Jesus must be a god. If we are co-heirs with Christ, then we can become like god.

From there things get mighty urban mythy. The myth is that if humans become like god, each human will have their own world to be a god over. That is NOT Mormon doctrine and is utterly false.

The doctrine is simply these two points:
1. Christ is CERTAINLY heir to all that god has/is.
2. We MAY become co-heirs with Christ in all that god has/is.

The above is the extent of Mormon doctrine on this subject. Everything beyond that is popular (and generally false) myth.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

In a word, no, it is not for us to be a deity on some other planet. But this belief does lend itself nicely back to the whole “acts” thing. Be good and you can have a planet. Isn’t salvation enough?

This is a bit short sighted, and certainly NOT Mormon doctrine.

Mormons view salvation as being "saved" from the effects of death and sin. This is a HUGE gift offered by our Father and made possible by his son's atonement.

But salvation is not the greatest gift of God. His greatest gift is the Biblical conept of becoming co-heir with Christ in ALL that our Father has.

Mormons call this exaltation. Exaltation, like salvation, is a free gift offered to all and we are free to either accept or reject both gifts. To accept this greatest gift requires making and keeping sacred covenants. Making and keeping covenants generally leads to good behavior. But just as accepting the gift of salvation naturally leads to good behavior and is not a way to "earn" salvation, so making and keeping covenants leads to good behavior and is not a way to "earn" exaltation.

And just as receiving the gift of salvation is not in any way a "reward" for good bahavior, so is recieving the gift of exaltation not in any way a "reward" for good behavior. Both are simply the natural outcomes of accepting gifts offered by a loving and merciful Father.

Hope this clarified.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Double D

This and this alone is enough for me to realize that I could never follow the mormon teachings. It goes completely against the teachings of the christian faith. So, for me, I immediately feel something is wrong and reject this doctrine.

That's fine. But may I ask a few questions?

1. In your faith, who is Satan and how did he come to be Satan?
2. What is Satan's relationship with the Father?
3. Why is your view of Satan the "true Christian" view and the Mormon view of Satan the "non Christian" view?

[Double D]

Originally Posted by KenV

That's fine. But may I ask a few questions?

1. In your faith, who is Satan and how did he come to be Satan?
2. What is Satan's relationship with the Father?
3. Why is your view of Satan the "true Christian" view and the Mormon view of Satan the "non Christian" view?

I deleted this out of respect for Pastor Terry. To answer the question, I have no interest in debating the issue with you. I do not believe in your religion and have plenty of good reason not to.

[jack404]

removed