Jew,Christian, Mormon, a childs question

[Double D]

Deleted

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Originally Posted by KenV

It is another urban myth.

Mormons believe that humans can, by making and keeping covenants, become co-heirs with Christ in ALL that the Father has. This is a Biblical concept.

Our Heavenly Father is a god. If his only begotten son, Jesus, is heir to ALL that the father has, Jesus must be a god. If we are co-heirs with Christ, then we can become like god.

From there things get mighty urban mythy. The myth is that if humans become like god, each human will have their own world to be a god over. That is NOT Mormon doctrine and is utterly false.

The doctrine is simply these two points:
1. Christ is CERTAINLY heir to all that god has/is.
2. We MAY become co-heirs with Christ in all that god has/is.

The above is the extent of Mormon doctrine on this subject. Everything beyond that is popular (and generally false) myth.

You guys can't even agree on what you believe.

[76Highboy]

Mormons believe that humans can, by making and keeping covenants, become co-heirs with Christ in ALL that the Father has. This is a Biblical concept.

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

You guys can't even agree on what you believe.

Quite right Ryan. Also Ryan, it is impossible for a human to keep a covenant with God. In fact it is God that always keeps the covenant which is why he sent Jesus into the world which if we read form Hebrews 7:22
Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. So since Jesus was sent into the world then he is the one who makes the covenants, not us. Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. See, Jesus makes the covenant. Then, Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. So here we see that it is Jesus blood that is the new covenant. So, if Jesus controls the covenant, and his blood is the covenant, that means he is the covenant.

So if Jesus Christ dies as the new covenant then who am I to assume that I as a human can "Make or keep" a covenant with Jesus? That busts this theory. Our best works are merely trash so how in the world can we obtain a covenant because we deem our selves righteous. I am sorry but it isn't me that can fill that boot.

Good job Ryan. A+ for you.

[76Highboy]

Also, one more question that my mind ponders,,, man my mind can race. If a human can achieve his own Kingdom? OK, hold that thought right there.

Where does Jesus sit? He sits at the right hand of God's throne, Revelations tells me so. So, if Jesus resides at the right hand of God's throne, but mortal man gets his own kingdom to manage, then what the heck did poor old Jesus get. Holy smokes, that poor dude got grounded next to God for eternity and he was the one that paid the premium price on the cross. Man, Jesus got rooked in this belief system. If I were Jesus I would be mad. People calling him Satan's brother and the mortal's getting their own kingdom's and being god's (not capitalized IMO for this one) of their own kingdom when human's are condemned by our own choices. I will never ever subscribe to a falsehood like this one.

Jesus saved me from myself and I only have him to thank because of the grace of God. The Holy Spirit called me, Jesus cleansed me, and the Good lord knows me because of the cross that Jesus carried for all my sins. That is good enough for me and I know i don't deserve it.

There's your church for the day. Glory be to God our Father in Heaven.

Amen Jesus and thank you for saving me from my pitiful self.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

Also, one more question that my mind ponders,,, man my mind can race. If a human can achieve his own Kingdom? OK, hold that thought right there.

Where does Jesus sit? He sits at the right hand of God's throne, Revelations tells me so. So, if Jesus resides at the right hand of God's throne, but mortal man gets his own kingdom to manage, then what the heck did poor old Jesus get. Holy smokes, that poor dude got grounded next to God for eternity and he was the one that paid the premium price on the cross. Man, Jesus got rooked in this belief system. If I were Jesus I would be mad. People calling him Satan's brother and the mortal's getting their own kingdom's and being god's (not capitalized IMO for this one) of their own kingdom when human's are condemned by our own choices. I will never ever subscribe to a falsehood like this one.

Jesus saved me from myself and I only have him to thank because of the grace of God. The Holy Spirit called me, Jesus cleansed me, and the Good lord knows me because of the cross that Jesus carried for all my sins. That is good enough for me and I know i don't deserve it.

There's your church for the day. Glory be to God our Father in Heaven.

Amen Jesus and thank you for saving me from my pitiful self.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes He is Lord, but here is something to ponder recently in the news. Let us suppose Our Lord while on the face of the earth had a wife (he made eternal marriage covenant with) then not only is our Lord but he too can have that eteranal progression of a world to rule. Not to blasme: He would still be our sector "Proconsul" over the worlds we humans would populate. (At least you fellas-me I am likely to end a ministring angel (once resurrected) to YOUR world. These are thoughts not doctrine.

[Double D]

Originally Posted by targetacqmgt

Yes He is Lord, but here is something to ponder recently in the news. Let us suppose Our Lord while on the face of the earth had a wife (he made eternal marriage covenant with) then not only is our Lord but he too can have that eteranal progression of a world to rule. Not to blasme: He would still be our sector "Proconsul" over the worlds we humans would populate. (At least you fellas-me I am likely to end a ministring angel (once resurrected) to YOUR world. These are thoughts not doctrine.

Pure utter nonsense.

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by Double D

Pure utter nonsense.

If you say so. But a good story line for a nonrelegious scifi novel.

[76Highboy]

Originally Posted by targetacqmgt

Yes He is Lord, but here is something to ponder recently in the news. Let us suppose Our Lord while on the face of the earth had a wife (he made eternal marriage covenant with) then not only is our Lord but he too can have that eteranal progression of a world to rule. Not to blasme: He would still be our sector "Proconsul" over the worlds we humans would populate. (At least you fellas-me I am likely to end a ministring angel (once resurrected) to YOUR world. These are thoughts not doctrine.

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

Ja it was tongue in cheek.

[76Highboy]

Originally Posted by targetacqmgt

Ja it was tongue in cheek.

Oh. I'm a slow reader. And a slow shooter.

[targetacqmgt]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

Oh. I'm a slow reader. And a slow shooter.

Dis ist zeher gut- slow shooters don't waste ammo-one shot one kill. ME I do it with HE (if I have it) all I got to do is get close

[RunningOnMT]

Wow. I've been away for a couple months and see people are still attempting to have the same discussion. There is nothing wrong with that, but some seem to feel that truth must yield to ignorance to spare injury to the delicate sensibilities of a few among us. I've been down this road before on this forum, and yet I still can't understand why people are so thin skinned about what others believe.

Any false religious teaching is apostasy, so naturally if there is a belief that doesn't square with my understanding of scripture, I will believe it is from an apostate religion. What's so wrong with stating it? I know for a fact that many wont agree with my beliefs, and if they want to label me apostate it wont hurt me a bit. Why should it? My faith is not damaged by the opinion of others. The thing is, to stifle such discussions may be doing a grave disservice to some. Do not doubt for a minute that many people in this world will spend eternity in hell. With so many conflicting beliefs, some beliefs must be false. Discussions like this may be the vehicle by which someone might see the truth.

With all that in mind, let me just say that a prerequisite of being a born again follower of Jesus Christ is knowing His Father. If you don't know the Father, you don't know the Son. His Father is the one eternal, omnipotent, omnicient, and omnipresent creator of all that is. To believe otherwise is to disqualify oneself as a Christian. Many believe in the man Jesus Christ, but deny His divinity, such as Muslims. Obviously Muslims are not Christian. Likewise, many claim a belief in God but deny His attributes as revealed in His Word. GOD THE FATHER WAS NOT A CREATED BEING. Teaching that He was, is heresy and blasphemy.

I will not pronounce damnation or salvation on any individual, but I will proclaim the truth of holy scriptures and the curse it places on any teaching which denies that truth. Anyone following a 19th century false prophet/science fiction writer is not a Christian. I don't care what label they place on themselves. This is my belief. If you disagree, that's fine. It's your right. No reason to be offended.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by targetacqmgt

Let us suppose Our Lord while on the face of the earth had a wife (he made eternal marriage covenant with)

Originally Posted by Double D

Pure utter nonsense.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."
-Jesus

Double D is right on this. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. The marriage covenant is "until death," not "for all eternity."
Jesus addressed this, and Matthew recorded it. Check out chapter 22.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Wow. I've been away for a couple months and see people are still attempting to have the same discussion. There is nothing wrong with that, but some seem to feel that truth must yield to ignorance to spare injury to the delicate sensibilities of a few among us. I've been down this road before on this forum, and yet I still can't understand why people are so thin skinned about what others believe.

Any false religious teaching is apostasy, so naturally if there is a belief that doesn't square with my understanding of scripture, I will believe it is from an apostate religion. What's so wrong with stating it? I know for a fact that many wont agree with my beliefs, and if they want to label me apostate it wont hurt me a bit. Why should it? My faith is not damaged by the opinion of others. The thing is, to stifle such discussions may be doing a grave disservice to some. Do not doubt for a minute that many people in this world will spend eternity in hell. With so many conflicting beliefs, some beliefs must be false. Discussions like this may be the vehicle by which someone might see the truth.

With all that in mind, let me just say that a prerequisite of being a born again follower of Jesus Christ is knowing His Father. If you don't know the Father, you don't know the Son. His Father is the one eternal, omnipotent, omnicient, and omnipresent creator of all that is. To believe otherwise is to disqualify oneself as a Christian. Many believe in the man Jesus Christ, but deny His divinity, such as Muslims. Obviously Muslims are not Christian. Likewise, many claim a belief in God but deny His attributes as revealed in His Word. GOD THE FATHER WAS NOT A CREATED BEING. Teaching that He was, is heresy and blasphemy.

I will not pronounce damnation or salvation on any individual, but I will proclaim the truth of holy scriptures and the curse it places on any teaching which denies that truth. Anyone following a 19th century false prophet/science fiction writer is not a Christian. I don't care what label they place on themselves. This is my belief. If you disagree, that's fine. It's your right. No reason to be offended.

ROMT;

We agree that many Mormons, JWs, and many other self-proclaimed Christian groups teach "a gospel other than the one" taught by Christ's apostles. (Cf. Galatians 1:8-9)

It is not the official policy of TFF that you cannot say that it is a different gospel. If it weren't different, they wouldn't come to forums and such to try to argue that theirs is a mainstream Christian belief system because they wouldn't have to. Does anyone here know my denominational background? Terry may remember it because I've told him, but I'm not sure anyone would otherwise know. Any idea if I'm Baptist or a Mennonite? Lutheran? Calvinist? Pentecostal or Anglican? Among those groups, practices and understandings are sometimes a bit different, but we all believe the same core stuff.

The LDS church has some different core. It is a different gospel. They know it and admit it openly. They tell us that the gospel that has been presented to us has been corrupted and is different than what Jesus taught, that the Bible has been mistranslated and misinterpreted for centuries. They believe that our gospel is a bit off.

It's not surprising, then, that we would believe their gospel is off. We all agree that there are differences.

The policy here at TFF is that you can't tell anyone that their religion is a "cult" or that they themselves are "not Christian." That's when it moves from a discussion of differences to a condemnation of people. That's what is not allowed.

Seems like a minor difference, perhaps, but it is a major thing in sustaining a community.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."
-Jesus

Double D is right on this. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. The marriage covenant is "until death," not "for all eternity."
Jesus addressed this, and Matthew recorded it. Check out chapter 22.

Amen

Also, here's something that occurred to me regarding this nonsense that Christ was united in an earthly marriage to a particular woman. This would make Christ an adulterer, since the church is His bride. He will be married only once.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

ROMT;

We agree that many Mormons, JWs, and many other self-proclaimed Christian groups teach "a gospel other than the one" taught by Christ's apostles. (Cf. Galatians 1:8-9)

It is not the official policy of TFF that you cannot say that it is a different gospel. If it weren't different, they wouldn't come to forums and such to try to argue that theirs is a mainstream Christian belief system because they wouldn't have to. Does anyone here know my denominational background? Terry may remember it because I've told him, but I'm not sure anyone would otherwise know. Any idea if I'm Baptist or a Mennonite? Lutheran? Calvinist? Pentecostal or Anglican? Among those groups, practices and understandings are sometimes a bit different, but we all believe the same core stuff.

The LDS church has some different core. It is a different gospel. They know it and admit it openly. They tell us that the gospel that has been presented to us has been corrupted and is different than what Jesus taught, that the Bible has been mistranslated and misinterpreted for centuries. They believe that our gospel is a bit off.

It's not surprising, then, that we would believe their gospel is off. We all agree that there are differences.

The policy here at TFF is that you can't tell anyone that their religion is a "cult" or that they themselves are "not Christian." That's when it moves from a discussion of differences to a condemnation of people. That's what is not allowed.

Seems like a minor difference, perhaps, but it is a major thing in sustaining a community.

Josh, As with discussions I've had with Terry, I understand your point to an extent, but then again I don't. If it's permissible to state ones beliefs, and part of ones beliefs is the belief about what defines a Christian, how is it not acceptable to state it?

Wait, OK, you are saying that you can state what beliefs define a Christian, but you just can't specify who doesn't meet that definition?

P.S. Just wanted to state once again that I hold no ill will toward Mormon. They seem to me, to a man (or woman), to always be well behaved men and women of character. It was never my intention to pronounce condemnation on any individual, only on a doctrine. It is my hope that all would accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

As this discussion applies to the upcoming election, Mitt Romney's faith will not keep me from voting for him. As one of my favorite pastors, John MacArthur, said recently, " You're voting for president, not pastor".

[KenV]

Originally Posted by Double D

I deleted this out of respect for Pastor Terry. To answer the question, I have no interest in debating the issue with you. I do not believe in your religion and have plenty of good reason not to.

VEry well. But I had no idea you were looking for a debate. You simply stated that you consider the Mormon view of Satan to be nonbelievable. I'm fine with that. I was just wondering what your beliefs were with respect to Satan. I have no interest in "debating" about who's belief is "true."

However I will correct anyone who makes (false) claims about what Mormons believe.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

You guys can't even agree on what you believe.

I'm sorry. I did not understand your reply. Would you mind clarifying?

[KenV]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

...it is impossible for a human to keep a covenant with God.

It is? If you say so. But I personally know hundreds of people who have made covenants with God and have kept them. Essentially the whole Old Testament is about God making covenants with his people. Noah covenanted with God. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob covenanted with God and the rest of the old testament is an account of the success and failure of the following generations to keep that covenant.

So if Jesus Christ dies as the new covenant then who am I to assume that I as a human can "Make or keep" a covenant with Jesus? That busts this theory.

Fascinating. I had no idea, not the slightest clue, that some folks believe that covenants are one way only. I always viewed covenants as two way, between God and man, and between man and God. God ALWAYS keeps his end of the covenant. Man, much less so.

But I believe I can covenant to take upon me Christ's name through baptism. And that by striving to keep that covenant my heart will be changed, I can become a "new man", and be accepted of him.

Our best works are merely trash so how in the world can we obtain a covenant because we deem our selves righteous. I am sorry but it isn't me that can fill that boot.

I did not follow that at all.

Maybe the problem is one of definition. Perhaps your definition of covenant is different than mine. To me a covenant is two-way promise. God makes promises to me and I make promises to God. I don't see that as being "self-righteous" at all. To me that's the heart and soul of Christianity: to strive to shake off the natural man and put on the new man. If I strive to keep my side of the covenant, my offering will be acceptable to God and he will change my heart. And a changed heart is the only way we have to accept the gift of salvation and exaltation He offers.

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Originally Posted by KenV

I'm sorry. I did not understand your reply. Would you mind clarifying?

Sure targetacqmgt did not deny my statement that Mormons believe they can achieve a God like state and have a planet to rule over. You on the other hand flatly deny it.

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Originally Posted by KenV

It is? If you say so. But I personally know hundreds of people who have made covenants with God and have kept them. Essentially the whole Old Testament is about God making covenants with his people. Noah covenanted with God. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob covenanted with God and the rest of the old testament is an account of the success and failure of the following generations to keep that covenant.

.

The covenant of Jesus' blood is the new covenant that renders the old testement obsolete. There is but one covenant between man and God and it is Jesus' blood.

[76Highboy]

Here's my reply.

[Double D]

Originally Posted by 76Highboy

Here's my reply.

[Appliancedude]

And this is why I no longer visit the religious forum. Ever since my last argument I got in with a guy who's no longer a member. Every doctrine reads something different from the bible. I for one am Pentecostal. We believe in speaking in tongues. Some call us evil for this. If you are one of those you can p!$$ off right now, don't want to hear it. We also believe in the trinity, however we believe the trinity to be 3 separate beings. We do not believe that Jesus is GOD. We believe that GOD is GOD, and that Jesus is his son. Don't like that either, tough, don't want to hear how we're wrong on that either. Your not gonna convince me anyways. And just so you know, I have just as many scriptures proving my point as you do proving yours. Ok

We will all know soon enough. True not all doctrines can be correct. However I don't believe the path to heaven follows a doctrine. I believe it follows Jesus Christ.

When all of us that follow Christ are in heaven we can all get together and say na na na na na I was right and you were wrong

And now that I have made my tri-monthly trek to the religious forums I am going back to the rest of the board. Keep arguing guys, I can see your really making headway

[carver]

You can prove anything you want to from the scriptures, as long as you take them out of context! That is why there are so many different bibles, religions, and doctrines! How many people really know how to devide the Word of God? Everybody?