age on an Iver Johnson .38 - The Firearms Forum

warhawk384 · 10-30-2012, 10:32 PM

I recently acquired an old Iver johnson .38 s&w and was wondering the year it was made (mainly whether it would fall under the pre-1899 listing it as an antique). I am assuming it was put together from 2 pistols because of the serial numbers.
The serial number on the grip frame is 43XX and that number is repeated on the underside of the trigger guard. On the bottom of the top strap is the serial number 900XX. The cylinder has no serial number. the top of the barrel says *IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS* *FITCHBURG, MASS. U.S.A*.
Any information you could provide on this would be greatly appreciated, and if you need any additional information let me know. Thanks!

hrf · 10-31-2012, 06:19 AM

Welcome to TFF.

Is the serial on grip frame on bottom end of butt or left side under the grips?

If the serial is on bottom end of butt, the frame was made in 1895, and it's an antique 2nd model, per U.S. federal rule.

(It can't be an 1894 first model or the later barrel assembly would not fit)

The barrel address with no patent dates and an asterisk or star at ends was used 1914-1941.

warhawk384 · 10-31-2012, 12:19 PM

thanks for your quick response hrf!

The serial number is on the left side under the grip, the pistol has a single piece wooden grip that screws on at the bottom of the grip frame. All serial numbers are clearly stamped and there are no letter codes before any of them. I can attach some pictures tonight when I get home from work if that would help.

hrf · 10-31-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warhawk384

thanks for your quick response hrf!

The serial number is on the left side under the grip, the pistol has a single piece wooden grip that screws on at the bottom of the grip frame. All serial numbers are clearly stamped and there are no letter codes before any of them. I can attach some pictures tonight when I get home from work if that would help.

What you are describing now may be a much later model, with a special order serial number, and clear photos are needed.

warhawk384 · 10-31-2012, 04:34 PM

Here are some photos. A guy I know who owns his own gun shop told me he thought it might have been a special order for the military. He based that on the fact that it came with a m1916 leather holster, and he said he knew that the WWI - WWII army pilots carried .38's. It was an assumption that was also based on the fact that the serial numbers didn't match they could have both been surplus non-functioning and put together later, or put together to be used by the military. I tend to think that these are leaps to judgement which is why I brought the info here. Could that be accurate if the pistol was a special order?

warhawk384 · 10-31-2012, 04:37 PM

here are a few more...

warhawk384 · 10-31-2012, 04:41 PM

Sorry, I am a photographer and wanted to be thorough.

hrf · 10-31-2012, 06:28 PM

Definitely not an antique: It's a special order third model, the special order item being the one piece "western walnut" grips.

Unfortunately, there are no special order records to date it to a specific year, but made no earlier than 1909.

The barrel assembly is probably original and not a mismatch, and with a number that large was made either 1916 or 1933.

There are two like yours shown in the book, and both have 4 digit serials with no letter.

RJay · 10-31-2012, 06:53 PM

And not used by the military in any official status, Iver Johnson's were used by security guards of defence plants and such. Pilots in WWII that carried .38's were issued S&W M&P in .39 Special.

warhawk384 · 10-31-2012, 07:23 PM

Good to know. Now that you've seen the photos and been able to get a decent look at it (hopefully). where would you put the value? my friend had told me he wouldn't pay more than $50 and would be lucky to sell it for more than $75. Is that correct or is he off?

WHSmithIV · 10-31-2012, 08:49 PM

The value is correct. There are a lot of these old pistols available and they are nice to have in a collection - especially if they are shootable. I paid $38 for my old .32 top break from an online auction and it is very shootable. I've run half a box of ammo through mine with one fail to fire (it's old ammo). Mine is in better condition with no rust.

10-30-2012, 10:32 PM	#1
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	age on an Iver Johnson .38 I recently acquired an old Iver johnson .38 s&w and was wondering the year it was made (mainly whether it would fall under the pre-1899 listing it as an antique). I am assuming it was put together from 2 pistols because of the serial numbers. The serial number on the grip frame is 43XX and that number is repeated on the underside of the trigger guard. On the bottom of the top strap is the serial number 900XX. The cylinder has no serial number. the top of the barrel says IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG, MASS. U.S.A. Any information you could provide on this would be greatly appreciated, and if you need any additional information let me know. Thanks! -->

10-31-2012, 06:19 AM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,282	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 Welcome to TFF. Is the serial on grip frame on bottom end of butt or left side under the grips? If the serial is on bottom end of butt, the frame was made in 1895, and it's an antique 2nd model, per U.S. federal rule. (It can't be an 1894 first model or the later barrel assembly would not fit) The barrel address with no patent dates and an asterisk or star at ends was used 1914-1941.

10-31-2012, 12:19 PM	#3
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 thanks for your quick response hrf! The serial number is on the left side under the grip, the pistol has a single piece wooden grip that screws on at the bottom of the grip frame. All serial numbers are clearly stamped and there are no letter codes before any of them. I can attach some pictures tonight when I get home from work if that would help.

10-31-2012, 04:34 PM	#5
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 Here are some photos. A guy I know who owns his own gun shop told me he thought it might have been a special order for the military. He based that on the fact that it came with a m1916 leather holster, and he said he knew that the WWI - WWII army pilots carried .38's. It was an assumption that was also based on the fact that the serial numbers didn't match they could have both been surplus non-functioning and put together later, or put together to be used by the military. I tend to think that these are leaps to judgement which is why I brought the info here. Could that be accurate if the pistol was a special order? Attached Images

10-31-2012, 04:37 PM	#6
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 here are a few more... Attached Images

10-31-2012, 04:41 PM	#7
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 Sorry, I am a photographer and wanted to be thorough. Attached Images

10-31-2012, 06:28 PM	#8
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,282	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 Definitely not an antique: It's a special order third model, the special order item being the one piece "western walnut" grips. Unfortunately, there are no special order records to date it to a specific year, but made no earlier than 1909. The barrel assembly is probably original and not a mismatch, and with a number that large was made either 1916 or 1933. There are two like yours shown in the book, and both have 4 digit serials with no letter.

10-31-2012, 06:53 PM	#9
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 And not used by the military in any official status, Iver Johnson's were used by security guards of defence plants and such. Pilots in WWII that carried .38's were issued S&W M&P in .39 Special. __________________ RonJames

10-31-2012, 07:23 PM	#10
warhawk384 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 Good to know. Now that you've seen the photos and been able to get a decent look at it (hopefully). where would you put the value? my friend had told me he wouldn't pay more than $50 and would be lucky to sell it for more than $75. Is that correct or is he off?

10-31-2012, 08:49 PM	#11
WHSmithIV Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Moore, Idaho contributor Posts: 2,636	Re: age on an Iver Johnson .38 The value is correct. There are a lot of these old pistols available and they are nice to have in a collection - especially if they are shootable. I paid $38 for my old .32 top break from an online auction and it is very shootable. I've run half a box of ammo through mine with one fail to fire (it's old ammo). Mine is in better condition with no rust.