Antique Muzzleloader - The Firearms Forum

dusty · 10-30-2012, 07:30 PM

I have an old muzzleloader that was passed down from my great-grandfather who came to America in 1860. Family legend has it that he brought this piece with him. It appears that it was originally a flintlock but somewhere along the way it was converted to a percussion firearm. The stock has been extended which makes me think that the piece may be quite old.

Markings: an archiepiscopal cross (two horizontal on one vertical member)
script name, H Schafer followed by Mayence

I believe Mayence is a town/city in Germany.

This much information may give the pro enough to identify the piece and possible age.

I am fairly sure the conversion (if that is actually what was done) decreased the value of the piece. However, so that some determination can be made I add the following description:

Wood: dark and appears to be beryl wood extending full length to the end of the barrel. The wood is capped at the muzzle by two inlayed white rings (possibly ivory) and a 2 inch piece of dark wood which is straight grained.
The forearm has recessed engraving in the wood with dimples throughout, spaced at about 3/8 inch. This artwork is also present on the grip. The stock has a cheekpiece for a right-handed shooter.

Brass: the trigger guard is brass with decorative "flourish" both ahead and behind the trigger. The rear extention of the trigger guard also has a scroll of brass. The ramrod has a brass cap and the wood appears to be ebony. There is brass inlay scrollwork on the left side of the reciever (the side opposite the hammer).

The piece has a hair trigger and set trigger.

That should be enough for now. Any information would be greatly appreciated

hrf · 10-30-2012, 07:57 PM

Welcome to TFF.

Mayence is (or was) another spelling of Mainz, across the Rhine from Wiesbaden.

Clear photos would help confirm if it was converted from flintlock, and the condition.

Jim K · 10-30-2012, 08:05 PM

That is good info, but not enought to help identify the gun. Can you provide good clear pictures of the markings and both sides of the lock and breech areas, as well as pictures of the buttstock and muzzle area. An overall picture would be good, also.

FWIW, Mayence is the French name for Mainz; the use of that spelling on something made there might date it to the Napoleonic era c. 1800 when the area was under French control. I can't find that name for any location elsewhere.

Jim

dusty · 10-31-2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrf

Welcome to TFF.

Mayence is (or was) another spelling of Mainz, across the Rhine from Wiesbaden.

Clear photos would help confirm if it was converted from flintlock, and the condition.

Thanks for the reply. Now I know a little more about the history of this piece. I'll submit photos as soon as I get the camera charged up.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 09:55 AM

Oooopssss. I think I replied in the wrong place.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the reply, Jim. I'm working on posting photos of the piece and looking forward to any information you or others may pass on.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 12:15 PM

Attached are photos of the piece I inquired about.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrf

Welcome to TFF.

Mayence is (or was) another spelling of Mainz, across the Rhine from Wiesbaden.

Clear photos would help confirm if it was converted from flintlock, and the condition.

Jim K · 10-31-2012, 12:33 PM

Good pics, but how about closeups of the lockplate, the marking, and the sideplate (opposite the lock plate).

Jim

dusty · 10-31-2012, 12:52 PM

(laughing out loud here.) You're too fast for me. I'm still struggliing with re-sizing and uploading. Here's some more.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 12:55 PM

and some more

Buffalochip · 10-31-2012, 01:27 PM

Can't tell from your pics, but does there appear to be plugged screw holes where indicated on the attached photo?

Jim K · 10-31-2012, 02:07 PM

Even though plugged holes are not obvious in the pictures, I have no doubt that the rifle was converted from flint to percussion. The fit (or lack of it) of the lockplate to the bolster, and the whole style of the rifle indicate a percussion conversion of a rifle that was originally flintlock and made well before the percussion era. My WAG would be 1750 or even earler.

Jim

dusty · 10-31-2012, 03:12 PM

wow, Buffalo Chips, you have a good eye - i wouldn't have noticed it from the photo.

but, no, they are not plugs. what you see are (i don't know what to call it) patina spots. but it's iron, not brass or bronze, so it's really not patina. maybe i should use the more technical term, "goober".

dusty · 10-31-2012, 03:19 PM

reply to Jim

you've confirmed my suspicion that it was a conversion. the barrel has obvious "rifling", if you will let me call it that. you can see in the photo of the head-on shot that the groves are quite deep. i inspected with my bore light, and as far as i could see down, the rifling was continuous.

my question is this: i have always assumed that flintlocks were smoothbore rifles. so, what am i looking at?

now, given that we know the approximate age and that it is a conversion, i have to ask if it has value or does the conversion null everything?

finally, if it has value, can you give me an idea of what that might be, and, if i'm so inclined, where would be a good place to put it up for sale?

45Auto · 10-31-2012, 03:19 PM

I couldd be wrong, but something about that rifle suggests German manufacture, in the 1700's.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 03:28 PM

CP

according to Jim and Buffalo Chip, you are not wrong. thanks for your input.

Jim K · 10-31-2012, 08:34 PM

Rifling dates to the 15th century, even before the flintlock system. It was not common for military arms because rifles had to be loaded carefully, usually requiring a patch or some method of expanding the ball into the rifling where smooth-bore "muskets" could be loaded just by dumping in powder and ramming the ball.

But rifling was common for hunting and target rifles in Germany for centuries and since it was mainly German gunsmiths who immigrated to the U.S., they naturally brought the idea with them. The result was the American rifle, called either the "Kentucky rifle" from where it was used, or the "Pennsylvania rifle" from where the earliest ones were made.

That rifle, in fact, looks quite a bit like a Pennsylvania rifle, and I thought at first that was what it was.

The barrel is shorter and the caliber larger than the typical American rifle, reflecting both the cost of lead in the (then) colonies and the distances involved for the pioneers; the smaller caliber allowed more shots for a given weight of lead.

Incidentally, it has been often said that German rifles were heavy and clumsy, and that they did not use patches and so needed thick iron ramrods. I submit that that German rifle is light and clearly has a wood ramrod. The patchbox, like the early American ones, has a sliding wood cover, not a brass one like later American rifles.

Jim

dusty · 10-31-2012, 08:42 PM

thank you for the very interesting explanation of what I was wondering about, Jim.

do you have any idea what the piece may be worth? if not, could point me in the direction of someone or some group like this who may have?

and, if you do have some sort of estimate of value, where might I put the piece up for sale?

Jim K · 10-31-2012, 09:12 PM

I really have no idea of the value of that gun. I tried checking a couple of German sites, but I saw nothing that old and of course, like most firearms of the period, it would have been the product of a small shop with limited priduction. If I had to guess, I would say $2000, but please understand that that is a wild guess. Letters to museums (with good 8x10 color photos might get a response, but I am not sure the value would make that approach worthwhile.

Jim

hrf · 10-31-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusty

reply to Jim
you've confirmed my suspicion that it was a conversion. the barrel has obvious "rifling", if you will let me call it that. you can see in the photo of the head-on shot that the groves are quite deep. i inspected with my bore light, and as far as i could see down, the rifling was continuous.

While you're examining the bore, measure with the ramrod to insure there's not an ancient load in there: It's amazing how often there is, and even 200 year old black powder can stll be good if it has remained dry!

dusty · 10-31-2012, 11:10 PM

Well, I'll take a wild guess over a tame guess any day - especially when it's that amount. If you run into anyone who is interested in a
H. Schafer-small shop in Mayence-1750-converted flintlock for the low, low price of, oh, let's say $1995 for starters, let me know. I'll be checking back. I'm pretty sure there's someone somewhere willing to pay something for this piece. Thanks for all your help and interesting factoids.

dusty · 10-31-2012, 11:14 PM

hrf

thanks for the tip. i've done that and it appears that it's clear. i wonder if it would be worth more if there was an antique load in it. probably not.

p.s. wanna buy a real old gun? probably not.

Buffalochip · 11-01-2012, 06:13 AM

Dusty--I'm fairly certain that what you have is a "club butt" Dutch rifle from the middle-early1700s converted from flintlock to percussion. It could be Pennsylvania Dutch--is there a Mayence in PA?

People were a bit smaller back then and I suspect the stock was lengthened to accommodate a large man and the patch box lengthened (or added) as well. The trigger guard doesn't look quite right forward of the trigger. It appears to have been repaired and unlike the other brass, it is "proud" of the inlet--sticks up above the wood.

dusty · 11-01-2012, 01:57 PM

Buffalochip

Mayence is the French name for the city which is now Mainz, Germany. I did a web search and could find no Mayence in PA.

I'll do some more poking around, but, at this point, I think this is a rifle from Germany.

10-30-2012, 07:30 PM	#1
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Antique Muzzleloader I have an old muzzleloader that was passed down from my great-grandfather who came to America in 1860. Family legend has it that he brought this piece with him. It appears that it was originally a flintlock but somewhere along the way it was converted to a percussion firearm. The stock has been extended which makes me think that the piece may be quite old. Markings: an archiepiscopal cross (two horizontal on one vertical member) script name, H Schafer followed by Mayence I believe Mayence is a town/city in Germany. This much information may give the pro enough to identify the piece and possible age. I am fairly sure the conversion (if that is actually what was done) decreased the value of the piece. However, so that some determination can be made I add the following description: Wood: dark and appears to be beryl wood extending full length to the end of the barrel. The wood is capped at the muzzle by two inlayed white rings (possibly ivory) and a 2 inch piece of dark wood which is straight grained. The forearm has recessed engraving in the wood with dimples throughout, spaced at about 3/8 inch. This artwork is also present on the grip. The stock has a cheekpiece for a right-handed shooter. Brass: the trigger guard is brass with decorative "flourish" both ahead and behind the trigger. The rear extention of the trigger guard also has a scroll of brass. The ramrod has a brass cap and the wood appears to be ebony. There is brass inlay scrollwork on the left side of the reciever (the side opposite the hammer). The piece has a hair trigger and set trigger. That should be enough for now. Any information would be greatly appreciated --> Last edited by dusty; 10-30-2012 at 07:31 PM..

10-30-2012, 07:57 PM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Welcome to TFF. Mayence is (or was) another spelling of Mainz, across the Rhine from Wiesbaden. Clear photos would help confirm if it was converted from flintlock, and the condition.

10-30-2012, 08:05 PM	#3
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader That is good info, but not enought to help identify the gun. Can you provide good clear pictures of the markings and both sides of the lock and breech areas, as well as pictures of the buttstock and muzzle area. An overall picture would be good, also. FWIW, Mayence is the French name for Mainz; the use of that spelling on something made there might date it to the Napoleonic era c. 1800 when the area was under French control. I can't find that name for any location elsewhere. Jim

10-31-2012, 09:55 AM	#5
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Oooopssss. I think I replied in the wrong place.

10-31-2012, 09:58 AM	#6
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Thanks for the reply, Jim. I'm working on posting photos of the piece and looking forward to any information you or others may pass on.

10-31-2012, 12:15 PM	#7
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Attached are photos of the piece I inquired about. Attached Images

10-31-2012, 12:33 PM	#9
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Good pics, but how about closeups of the lockplate, the marking, and the sideplate (opposite the lock plate). Jim

10-31-2012, 12:52 PM	#10
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader (laughing out loud here.) You're too fast for me. I'm still struggliing with re-sizing and uploading. Here's some more. Attached Images

10-31-2012, 12:55 PM	#11
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader and some more Attached Images

10-31-2012, 01:27 PM	#12
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Can't tell from your pics, but does there appear to be plugged screw holes where indicated on the attached photo? Attached Images

10-31-2012, 02:07 PM	#13
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Even though plugged holes are not obvious in the pictures, I have no doubt that the rifle was converted from flint to percussion. The fit (or lack of it) of the lockplate to the bolster, and the whole style of the rifle indicate a percussion conversion of a rifle that was originally flintlock and made well before the percussion era. My WAG would be 1750 or even earler. Jim

10-31-2012, 03:12 PM	#14
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader wow, Buffalo Chips, you have a good eye - i wouldn't have noticed it from the photo. but, no, they are not plugs. what you see are (i don't know what to call it) patina spots. but it's iron, not brass or bronze, so it's really not patina. maybe i should use the more technical term, "goober".

10-31-2012, 03:19 PM	#15
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader reply to Jim you've confirmed my suspicion that it was a conversion. the barrel has obvious "rifling", if you will let me call it that. you can see in the photo of the head-on shot that the groves are quite deep. i inspected with my bore light, and as far as i could see down, the rifling was continuous. my question is this: i have always assumed that flintlocks were smoothbore rifles. so, what am i looking at? now, given that we know the approximate age and that it is a conversion, i have to ask if it has value or does the conversion null everything? finally, if it has value, can you give me an idea of what that might be, and, if i'm so inclined, where would be a good place to put it up for sale?

10-31-2012, 03:19 PM	#16
45Auto Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,119	Re: Antique Muzzleloader I couldd be wrong, but something about that rifle suggests German manufacture, in the 1700's.

10-31-2012, 03:28 PM	#17
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader CP according to Jim and Buffalo Chip, you are not wrong. thanks for your input.

10-31-2012, 08:34 PM	#18
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Rifling dates to the 15th century, even before the flintlock system. It was not common for military arms because rifles had to be loaded carefully, usually requiring a patch or some method of expanding the ball into the rifling where smooth-bore "muskets" could be loaded just by dumping in powder and ramming the ball. But rifling was common for hunting and target rifles in Germany for centuries and since it was mainly German gunsmiths who immigrated to the U.S., they naturally brought the idea with them. The result was the American rifle, called either the "Kentucky rifle" from where it was used, or the "Pennsylvania rifle" from where the earliest ones were made. That rifle, in fact, looks quite a bit like a Pennsylvania rifle, and I thought at first that was what it was. The barrel is shorter and the caliber larger than the typical American rifle, reflecting both the cost of lead in the (then) colonies and the distances involved for the pioneers; the smaller caliber allowed more shots for a given weight of lead. Incidentally, it has been often said that German rifles were heavy and clumsy, and that they did not use patches and so needed thick iron ramrods. I submit that that German rifle is light and clearly has a wood ramrod. The patchbox, like the early American ones, has a sliding wood cover, not a brass one like later American rifles. Jim

10-31-2012, 08:42 PM	#19
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader thank you for the very interesting explanation of what I was wondering about, Jim. do you have any idea what the piece may be worth? if not, could point me in the direction of someone or some group like this who may have? and, if you do have some sort of estimate of value, where might I put the piece up for sale?

10-31-2012, 09:12 PM	#20
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader I really have no idea of the value of that gun. I tried checking a couple of German sites, but I saw nothing that old and of course, like most firearms of the period, it would have been the product of a small shop with limited priduction. If I had to guess, I would say $2000, but please understand that that is a wild guess. Letters to museums (with good 8x10 color photos might get a response, but I am not sure the value would make that approach worthwhile. Jim

10-31-2012, 11:10 PM	#22
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Well, I'll take a wild guess over a tame guess any day - especially when it's that amount. If you run into anyone who is interested in a H. Schafer-small shop in Mayence-1750-converted flintlock for the low, low price of, oh, let's say $1995 for starters, let me know. I'll be checking back. I'm pretty sure there's someone somewhere willing to pay something for this piece. Thanks for all your help and interesting factoids.

10-31-2012, 11:14 PM	#23
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader hrf thanks for the tip. i've done that and it appears that it's clear. i wonder if it would be worth more if there was an antique load in it. probably not. p.s. wanna buy a real old gun? probably not.

11-01-2012, 06:13 AM	#24
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Dusty--I'm fairly certain that what you have is a "club butt" Dutch rifle from the middle-early1700s converted from flintlock to percussion. It could be Pennsylvania Dutch--is there a Mayence in PA? People were a bit smaller back then and I suspect the stock was lengthened to accommodate a large man and the patch box lengthened (or added) as well. The trigger guard doesn't look quite right forward of the trigger. It appears to have been repaired and unlike the other brass, it is "proud" of the inlet--sticks up above the wood. Attached Images Last edited by Buffalochip; 11-01-2012 at 06:26 AM.. Reason: picture added

11-01-2012, 01:57 PM	#25
dusty Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 21	Re: Antique Muzzleloader Buffalochip Mayence is the French name for the city which is now Mainz, Germany. I did a web search and could find no Mayence in PA. I'll do some more poking around, but, at this point, I think this is a rifle from Germany.