Can anyone identify this device on this flintlock pistol???

[Bishop54]

Consider me baffled. My father just came across this flinklock pistol and no one seems to be able to tell him what the device is for. When the frizzen is closed and you push the button on top of the frizzen it allows a small plate to remain over the pan. When you re-close the frizzen it works like a normal frizzen where sparks get thrown in the pan the usual way. What could this device for? Is there anything else you can tell me about this flintlock? Here's some pictures to help with the identification. Thank you for your help gentlemen.

[soundguy]

are you talking about the flap unde rthe frizen that covers the pan?

[Bishop54]

Originally Posted by soundguy

are you talking about the flap unde rthe frizen that covers the pan?

Yes sir, the pan that flips down covering were the powder goes.

[Popeye]

An attempt at keeping one's powder dry?

An early attempt at a safety?

[soundguy]

the frizzen down will help keep the powder dry.. but maybee a safety?

guess it would do both really?

[RJay]

While unusual and complicated in it's workings, it just seems another way to cover the pan to keep the primer powder secure and dry while carrying the firearm. Firearm designers down through the ages were the Steve Jobs of ingenious devices, some practical, some really wild. your pictures, while very good, don't show any marking clear enough identify the possible maker or country of origin. What are the various markings.

[Bishop54]

Interesting guys, Why would this system make a good safety? Sounds like this could be a rare find my Father made?

[Popeye]

I didn't say it was a good safety. It could be an attempt at keeping inadvertant spark from priming powder.

I also mentioned an attempt at keeping powder dry prior to mentioning a safety as dry powder was the first thing I considered.

[aa1911]

maybe it's to allow one to move the frizzen forward and fully decock the hammer while not allowing the primer charge to spill out?

[Popeye]

Whatever its intent it didn't catch on. This could be for any one of, or a combination of, many possible reasons. The fact that it was not widely accepted does make it relatively rare in number. This rarity does not necessarily make it valuable although it may have some value to collectors.

I am not speaking as an expert but as a thinking person with experience in firearms.

[soundguy]

Originally Posted by Bishop54

Interesting guys, Why would this system make a good safety? Sounds like this could be a rare find my Father made?

thik of how the flintlock functions.. flint goes down, knocks frizen out of way and blows sparks into the pan for the flash hole.. if a metal flap is down , under the frizen.. sparks aren't as apt to make it to the pan. same with rain i guess...

maybee this was the 1800's version of a delta force amphibous assault carbine..

pirate jumps out of the water pours the water out of his gun bbl, flips wish water 'resistant' pan cover out of the way and unleashes his massive single shot volley..

[soundguy]

Originally Posted by aa1911

maybe it's to allow one to move the frizzen forward and fully decock the hammer while not allowing the primer charge to spill out?

another good idea!

[Bishop54]

Originally Posted by soundguy

thik of how the flintlock functions.. flint goes down, knocks frizen out of way and blows sparks into the pan for the flash hole.. if a metal flap is down , under the frizen.. sparks aren't as apt to make it to the pan. same with rain i guess...

maybee this was the 1800's version of a delta force amphibous assault carbine..

pirate jumps out of the water pours the water out of his gun bbl, flips wish water 'resistant' pan cover out of the way and unleashes his massive single shot volley..

You had my father dying with laughter over this post. He says well done.

[soundguy]

it looked even better than it sounded as I played it out in my brain as I was typing it..

I used jack sparrow for the pirate he's odd enough to do something like that..

[Jim K]

Got me. If it is supposed to keep the pan dry, waterproof pans were in common use before that pistol was made. If it is supposed to keep the powder from falling out, the regular frizzen does that and has to be closed and the pan covered before the gun can be fired. Pan covers were common on matchlocks and snaphaunces but it doesn't make a lot of sense on a flintlock.

If it is a safety, it is a rather crude one and looks like it would be hard to move out of the way in a hurry. The normal sliding safety was more efficient and most were automatically kicked off when the cock was pulled back. That one would have the advantage of being installed with only a change to the frizzen, no alteration of the lock would be needed.

Jim

[soundguy]

i wonder if it could have been a matchlock conversion?

real stretch there I guess...

[Jim K]

No indication that the gun was ever anything but a flintlock. I believe it is French.

Jim

[Bishop54]

I appreciate all the brainstorming guys. I'm stumped, my Father is stumped, and all his gun friends are stumped. It's like no one has seen this before. It's quite exciting but frustrating that we may never know who made the gun.

[Jim K]

FWIW, I think who made the gun and who put on that gadget may be two different people. The "thing" may well have been some inventor's idea and he just used that pistol as his "test bed." Are there any markings on the lockplate or on the barrel that could help identify the original maker or the country of origin?

Jim

[Bishop54]

Originally Posted by Jim K

FWIW, I think who made the gun and who put on that gadget may be two different people. The "thing" may well have been some inventor's idea and he just used that pistol as his "test bed." Are there any markings on the lockplate or on the barrel that could help identify the original maker or the country of origin?

Jim

I'll get proof mark pictures on Sunday but my father says there's one that consists of a triangle with a dot inside. I'm sorry but that's all I have for you until Sunday.

[RJay]

Have to admit, it is interesting. There were a lot of interesting designs during that era, some caught on, such as percussion caps, others such as shooting square bullets at infidels didn't.

[rhmc24]

Here's the skinny - as someone touched on above. It is to allow the pan to be primed while the frizzen is open and the hammer down. Most flint locks when primed and 'ready' must have the hammer at half cock to carry it safely. For long storage some people think that constant strain on springs is undesirable. So - this device allows the gun to be primed for quick use, with the hammer down, frizzen open and springs relaxed. It is a rare feature, second one I know of.

French, I agree.

[Jim K]

I think rhmc24 has the answer.

Jim

[Bishop54]

Originally Posted by rhmc24

Here's the skinny - as someone touched on above. It is to allow the pan to be primed while the frizzen is open and the hammer down. Most flint locks when primed and 'ready' must have the hammer at half cock to carry it safely. For long storage some people think that constant strain on springs is undesirable. So - this device allows the gun to be primed for quick use, with the hammer down, frizzen open and springs relaxed. It is a rare feature, second one I know of.

French, I agree.

Ok that's wonderful information. So we know now what the use is for and you guys are pretty sure it's French, we're getting there. I'm excited! I'll still post the marking on Sunday and maybe we can get it narrowed down some more. My Dad is mulling a $1500 offer for the gun so I'll tell him to hold off. Looks like he might have a goodie.

[Bishop54]

As promised here is a picture of the proof mark.



A person on another forum thinks it's a gun cobbler together using very old parts. Most of which he thinks are Austrian in origin.