Definition of "sawed off shotgun" - The Firearms Forum

45Smashemflat · 12-26-2005, 06:53 AM

OK, can someone give me the straight skinny on the definition of a sawed off shot gun? I know its a combo of barrel length and overall length. I've got a 870 with a factory 18.5" barrel. Its all stock. I've seen a contraption that lets you install any form of M4 style collapsable buttstock on the 870. What I'm concerned about is creating a illegal weapon by doing this and inadvertently making it too short while collapsed. Accurate details would be appreciated.

Glock 31 · 12-26-2005, 07:16 AM

"Sawed off" means you take any shotgun, regardless of length. Take a hacksaw, and saw off the barrell leaving about a half inch or so in front of the forward grip. Thus making the dispersion of the buckshot much wider and more lethal. As long as you don't take a saw to your shotgun, you shouldn't have to worry about anything illegal.

pickenup · 12-26-2005, 02:34 PM

Legal limits for shotguns are....
18" barrel--------26" overall.
I'd leave it a little longer, just so there is no question.

45Smashemflat · 12-27-2005, 05:56 AM

Thanks Pickenup.... I'll measure it tonight, I think I'm at the 26" limit now, so a fold up unit would break the law.

RKBA · 12-31-2005, 12:39 PM

If memory serves this is what started Randy Weavers problems...

Deputy Dawg · 12-31-2005, 03:58 PM

Yes it was, but the BATF

made a mountian out of a mole hill.

stash247 · 01-01-2006, 08:44 AM

45, for the record, it does matter how you measure the barrel length; the alphabet cops will use a scale, or rod, IN the barrel, measuring to the muzzle, from the bolt or breech face.
Technically, this gives th most "wiggle room" for the prospective defendant.
I would always measure such things in the way I know they will, to err on the side of legality, since a 'goof could be a $10,000, 10 year thing!
The very best to all in this foggy new year! Terry

45Smashemflat · 01-07-2006, 11:45 AM

Roger that Stash - I've seen the stick myself. That was some time back when I had no real interest.

I came across this 870 in a trade, and I made it my "lean behind the door" house gun. It holds 7 rounds of std field loads and it has a 18.5" cylinder bore barrel from the factory. Later I was at a gun show and saw this bolt-on apparatus that allowed the installation of a M4 style collapsable butt stock. I didn't buy it, but grabbed the web site. It looks pretty workable, but I was thinking that I might end up with an illeagal weapon if installed due to breaking the "overall length" clause mentioned by Pickenup. Therefore it still bone stock. Still fills the niche though.

stash247 · 01-08-2006, 10:19 AM

Looking at a Mossberg M-590, with a 20 " barrel, and a mag tube as long, I find the receiver is 8" long; without a stock of any sort, and cut to 18", it would still be a legal weapon; take a tape or a yardstick, and carefully (It' your A**) measure the barrel length, and the overall, to the stock attatchment.
I'm betting it will be of legal length, with the folding stock folded.
I'm thinking that the stock you spoke of is an M-16 type stock, which, collapsed, would be still longer, overall, but if the barelled action 'makes length', you will never have a problem. Terry

45Smashemflat · 01-08-2006, 11:20 AM

I think you are probably right - then there is the question of adding $'s to a house gun that is already all it really needs to be. I'll probably just leave it as it is for a while anyway.

This one is your plain jane, matte black, "bump in the night" gun. While I'm waffling a bit on putting this stock on it, I am seriously shopping for a fore-end light.

I figure with the ext-mag, a five shot stock cuff, and a fore end light - it will fill most security needs. Its already pretty short and no slings and such to get hung up on stuff.

Deputy Dawg · 01-08-2006, 12:21 PM

As long as the over all lenght is 26ins you are legal.Shotguns have to have at least a 18in barrel and a rifle has to have a 16in barrel

polishshooter · 01-08-2006, 02:28 PM

Which is why when I had the polychoke cut off the Cyl, bore tRusty '97 I inherited I wanted 18 but had the smith cut it at 18 1/2" JUST IN CASE I got an ATF agent with a short stick...

stash247 · 01-08-2006, 02:46 PM

Polish, they all got "Short Sticks"; why else would they spend their days F***ing with honest folk, instead of taking a real job?

Familyguy · 01-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Break out the ruler, guys - those actions are longer than you think. They make 18.5" barrel pistol-grip shotguns at the factory.

'Course, mine has an 10.5" bbl, 19" overall length

The guy with the "saw" had the proper paperwork

ssuttle13 · 01-26-2006, 07:09 PM

I believe Federal law states the barrel length may be no shorter than 18.25 from the base of the chamber to the end of the barrell and the entire length of the firearm not to be shorter than 26" stock, barrell and all. even if fitted with a pistol grip stock! The NRA would also have those regulations

southernshooter · 03-07-2006, 11:33 PM

I shoot a mossberg 500a with 18.5 bbl equally long tube and a top folding pistol grip stock and been checked several times by the sheriffs "BUT THEN AGAIN I LIVE IN MISSISSIPPI ANYTHING LEGAL"

rmrdaddy · 03-07-2006, 11:47 PM

AHA!
We gotten to the Tactical Shotgun discussions....
MMuuuuuwwwaahhhahhhahhhhaaaa
Sorry about that that...
I'm getting deeper into that area of the firearms hobby... I'm "projectizing" a1968 Wingmaster as I type this. Picked it up for ...$114

Check out...
www.shotgunworld.com
There is a separate "tactical Shotguns" board, and some very neat, sometimes impractical guns over there. But, there is also a lot of good info to be had, the folks seem to be nice over there too....

45Smashemflat - it looks like Surefire has a whole forend/light assemby that looks to be of high quality, and well regarded...
The Daddy

bluesea112 · 08-17-2006, 06:00 AM

Very nicely stated Stash247. You don't know pissed until your house burns down, takes your truck with it and kills your dog. 30 minutes after I buried my dog, the ATF and Bomb investigator wrote me a citation for having a fire during a county burn ban. WHAT!!!?? I was welding in my garage and a spark got away from me. It's not like I was burning trash or something. I was WELDING! The fire they cited me for was the house fire. The ATF was involved because the neighbors reported bombs exploding in my garage when the fire started. Ignorant liberals were simply hearing two cases of 12 guage shells popping and a couple of half full propane cans. The ATF Agent told me that if I made a stink about the citation, he would find a way to put me in prison for 10 years. He said that mere fact that the neighbors said the word "bomb" on the 911 tape was enough for him to put me away.
By the way, I don't even have a speeding ticket on my record. And they wonder why they are so passionately hated.

southernshooter · 08-17-2006, 10:31 PM

It is easyier to break down and buy a A.O.W. and not worry about any of it.

Ursus · 08-18-2006, 06:43 AM

Here, by law, that would be an 18" minus barrel and would be illegal. If you want to cut say a 24" to 20", you have to ask for an authorization, but is leggally possible to do.

stash247 · 08-19-2006, 02:19 AM

Bluesea112, now you are getting a grip on my definition of having a 'short stick'; I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, and doubly sorry to hear of the BATF 'chiming in', after the fact, but it goes to the nature of the organisation; they were and are trained to mess with folks, doing no wrong!
My personal philosophy is to avoid, at any cost, any 'official' conversation, with any LEO, as our ends are at opposite extremes; "Alphabet Cops", simply re-inforce this conviction!
all the best,

Coltonator · 12-31-2006, 12:05 PM

Damn liberals trying to take away my rights. So what if I wanna have a 3'' barrel???

berto64 · 01-01-2007, 03:11 AM

I agree!

They have 357's with two (2) inch barrels, why can't we have 3" shotgun barrels?

Deputy Dawg · 01-01-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southernshooter

I shoot a mossberg 500a with 18.5 bbl equally long tube and a top folding pistol grip stock and been checked several times by the sheriffs "BUT THEN AGAIN I LIVE IN MISSISSIPPI ANYTHING LEGAL"

Thae same shotgun is legal in Texas also.If it was up to me everything would be legal, just like it was before 1933.
Hey Berto have you ever seen a Thunder Five? It was a revolver that could shoot either 45 longs or 410 shotgun shells, and to the best of my memory it had a 3 inch bbl.A freind of mine has one.

southernshooter · 01-07-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltanator

Damn liberals trying to take away my rights. So what if I wanna have a 3'' barrel???

You can have one, unfortunetly you have to deal with the AOW/SBS bull crap

12-26-2005, 06:53 AM	#1
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Definition of "sawed off shotgun" OK, can someone give me the straight skinny on the definition of a sawed off shot gun? I know its a combo of barrel length and overall length. I've got a 870 with a factory 18.5" barrel. Its all stock. I've seen a contraption that lets you install any form of M4 style collapsable buttstock on the 870. What I'm concerned about is creating a illegal weapon by doing this and inadvertently making it too short while collapsed. Accurate details would be appreciated. -->

12-26-2005, 07:16 AM	#2
Glock 31 Former Guest Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 15	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" "Sawed off" means you take any shotgun, regardless of length. Take a hacksaw, and saw off the barrell leaving about a half inch or so in front of the forward grip. Thus making the dispersion of the buckshot much wider and more lethal. As long as you don't take a saw to your shotgun, you shouldn't have to worry about anything illegal.

12-26-2005, 02:34 PM	#3
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,841	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Legal limits for shotguns are.... 18" barrel--------26" overall. I'd leave it a little longer, just so there is no question. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

12-27-2005, 05:56 AM	#4
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Thanks Pickenup.... I'll measure it tonight, I think I'm at the 26" limit now, so a fold up unit would break the law.

12-31-2005, 12:39 PM	#5
RKBA Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 35	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" If memory serves this is what started Randy Weavers problems...

12-31-2005, 03:58 PM	#6
Deputy Dawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Central Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 2,234	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Yes it was, but the BATF made a mountian out of a mole hill. __________________ LOCK and LOAD................................... GOD, GUNS,GUTS the three that keep us FREE!!!!

01-01-2006, 08:44 AM	#7
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" 45, for the record, it does matter how you measure the barrel length; the alphabet cops will use a scale, or rod, IN the barrel, measuring to the muzzle, from the bolt or breech face. Technically, this gives th most "wiggle room" for the prospective defendant. I would always measure such things in the way I know they will, to err on the side of legality, since a 'goof could be a $10,000, 10 year thing! The very best to all in this foggy new year! Terry __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

01-07-2006, 11:45 AM	#8
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Roger that Stash - I've seen the stick myself. That was some time back when I had no real interest. I came across this 870 in a trade, and I made it my "lean behind the door" house gun. It holds 7 rounds of std field loads and it has a 18.5" cylinder bore barrel from the factory. Later I was at a gun show and saw this bolt-on apparatus that allowed the installation of a M4 style collapsable butt stock. I didn't buy it, but grabbed the web site. It looks pretty workable, but I was thinking that I might end up with an illeagal weapon if installed due to breaking the "overall length" clause mentioned by Pickenup. Therefore it still bone stock. Still fills the niche though.

01-08-2006, 10:19 AM	#9
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Looking at a Mossberg M-590, with a 20 " barrel, and a mag tube as long, I find the receiver is 8" long; without a stock of any sort, and cut to 18", it would still be a legal weapon; take a tape or a yardstick, and carefully (It' your A) measure the barrel length, and the overall, to the stock attatchment. I'm betting it will be of legal length, with the folding stock folded. I'm thinking that the stock you spoke of is an M-16 type stock, which, collapsed, would be still longer, overall, but if the barelled action 'makes length', you will never have a problem. Terry __________________ Don't start no st and there won't be none, Terry

01-08-2006, 11:20 AM	#10
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" I think you are probably right - then there is the question of adding $'s to a house gun that is already all it really needs to be. I'll probably just leave it as it is for a while anyway. This one is your plain jane, matte black, "bump in the night" gun. While I'm waffling a bit on putting this stock on it, I am seriously shopping for a fore-end light. I figure with the ext-mag, a five shot stock cuff, and a fore end light - it will fill most security needs. Its already pretty short and no slings and such to get hung up on stuff.

01-08-2006, 12:21 PM	#11
Deputy Dawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Central Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 2,234	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" As long as the over all lenght is 26ins you are legal.Shotguns have to have at least a 18in barrel and a rifle has to have a 16in barrel __________________ LOCK and LOAD................................... GOD, GUNS,GUTS the three that keep us FREE!!!!

01-08-2006, 02:28 PM	#12
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Which is why when I had the polychoke cut off the Cyl, bore tRusty '97 I inherited I wanted 18 but had the smith cut it at 18 1/2" JUST IN CASE I got an ATF agent with a short stick... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

01-08-2006, 02:46 PM	#13
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Polish, they all got "Short Sticks"; why else would they spend their days F*ing with honest folk, instead of taking a real job? __________________ Don't start no st and there won't be none, Terry

01-24-2006, 02:34 PM	#14
Familyguy Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 40	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Break out the ruler, guys - those actions are longer than you think. They make 18.5" barrel pistol-grip shotguns at the factory. 'Course, mine has an 10.5" bbl, 19" overall length The guy with the "saw" had the proper paperwork

01-26-2006, 07:09 PM	#15
ssuttle13 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Western Minnesota Posts: 23	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" I believe Federal law states the barrel length may be no shorter than 18.25 from the base of the chamber to the end of the barrell and the entire length of the firearm not to be shorter than 26" stock, barrell and all. even if fitted with a pistol grip stock! The NRA would also have those regulations

03-07-2006, 11:33 PM	#16
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" I shoot a mossberg 500a with 18.5 bbl equally long tube and a top folding pistol grip stock and been checked several times by the sheriffs "BUT THEN AGAIN I LIVE IN MISSISSIPPI ANYTHING LEGAL" __________________ Only you can see this Last edited by southernshooter; 03-09-2006 at 12:21 AM..

03-07-2006, 11:47 PM	#17
rmrdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: southern NJ Posts: 165	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" AHA! We gotten to the Tactical Shotgun discussions.... MMuuuuuwwwaahhhahhhahhhhaaaa Sorry about that that... I'm getting deeper into that area of the firearms hobby... I'm "projectizing" a1968 Wingmaster as I type this. Picked it up for ...$114 Check out... www.shotgunworld.com There is a separate "tactical Shotguns" board, and some very neat, sometimes impractical guns over there. But, there is also a lot of good info to be had, the folks seem to be nice over there too.... 45Smashemflat - it looks like Surefire has a whole forend/light assemby that looks to be of high quality, and well regarded... The Daddy

08-17-2006, 06:00 AM	#18
bluesea112 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: West, TX Contributor Posts: 1,262	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Very nicely stated Stash247. You don't know pissed until your house burns down, takes your truck with it and kills your dog. 30 minutes after I buried my dog, the ATF and Bomb investigator wrote me a citation for having a fire during a county burn ban. WHAT!!!?? I was welding in my garage and a spark got away from me. It's not like I was burning trash or something. I was WELDING! The fire they cited me for was the house fire. The ATF was involved because the neighbors reported bombs exploding in my garage when the fire started. Ignorant liberals were simply hearing two cases of 12 guage shells popping and a couple of half full propane cans. The ATF Agent told me that if I made a stink about the citation, he would find a way to put me in prison for 10 years. He said that mere fact that the neighbors said the word "bomb" on the 911 tape was enough for him to put me away. By the way, I don't even have a speeding ticket on my record. And they wonder why they are so passionately hated.

08-17-2006, 10:31 PM	#19
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" It is easyier to break down and buy a A.O.W. and not worry about any of it. __________________ Only you can see this

08-18-2006, 06:43 AM	#20
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Here, by law, that would be an 18" minus barrel and would be illegal. If you want to cut say a 24" to 20", you have to ask for an authorization, but is leggally possible to do. __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM.

08-19-2006, 02:19 AM	#21
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Bluesea112, now you are getting a grip on my definition of having a 'short stick'; I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, and doubly sorry to hear of the BATF 'chiming in', after the fact, but it goes to the nature of the organisation; they were and are trained to mess with folks, doing no wrong! My personal philosophy is to avoid, at any cost, any 'official' conversation, with any LEO, as our ends are at opposite extremes; "Alphabet Cops", simply re-inforce this conviction! all the best, __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

12-31-2006, 12:05 PM	#22
Coltonator V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 201	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" Damn liberals trying to take away my rights. So what if I wanna have a 3'' barrel??? __________________ <

01-01-2007, 03:11 AM	#23
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,394	Re: Definition of "sawed off shotgun" I agree! They have 357's with two (2) inch barrels, why can't we have 3" shotgun barrels? __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God.