Best SMG of World War II

[Pistolenschutze]

We've talked about rifles, let's talk about submachine guns for a bit. Which was the best one to come out of, or have been used in, World War II and why?

My vote has to go to the Thompson SMG, but NOT to its successor the so-called M3A1 Grease Gun. The British Sten (9mm) was a good weapon but tended to jam far too much. The German MP40 (9mm) was likely the best of the lot, but the Germans never were able to build enough of them to really matter. The Russian PPSh-41 (7.62x25Tok caliber), along with its later versions, was an excellent weapon as well, but with its anemic cartridge, lacked the knock-down power of the .45 Thompson.

[polishshooter]

Actually, PS, the Thompson was GREAT and RELIABLE, but fails in the main test, price and manufacturing ease. They got better with the M1 and M1A during the war, but don't sell the M3 short! After they got the breaking charging handle problem solved (Eureka! Let's ELIMINATE it and drill a hole on the bolt for a FINGER! BRILLIANT! ) it really WAS a first class weapon, cheap, easy to make, low cyclic, and reliable....and even with ALL the "better" designs on the market, was STILL standard issue until the 90s! I got a kick out of seeing M1 Abrams tanks in Europe with M3A1s inside for crew personal weapons in the 80s!

MANY experts like Kokalis, Fortier and others say it was one of the most accurate SMGs and easiest to handle (mainly due to the low cyclic, granted) but it ALSO was easily converted to 9mm and other calibers just by changing bolt heads, barrels and mags!



But having said that, the PpSh has to be the best from WWII...reliable, cheap, used 91/30 barrels cut in half during the "dark days" that worked, with a RELIABLE high cap drum mag that worked, and the bottlenecked 7.62 Tokarev round was NOT anemic, in fact is called the FIRST "Magnum" round by a lot of gun guys...(and was ALMOST "readopted" this year as standard for the Russians due to it's excellent penetration on body armor)...it put out a LOT of lead fast, from that 71 rd. drum....


The sight of 8 or 10 drunk "Tank Riders" jumping off a T-34 traveling 30 mph right AT you, 50 yds away with PpSh's chattering is probably STILL a nightmare for any Werhmacht veterans that MAY have survived....

But you still have to give credit where credit is due (even though giving credit to ANYTHING German is like fingernails on the blackboard to me )...while it was NOT the best EVER, the MP-38 and 40, along with the STEN, DID set the standards for what a combat SMG should be....while all the contemporaries at the time like the Bergmans, Berrettas, and Thompsons, were still being manufactured like late 19th Century RIFLES with complex, expensive machining, wood, etc, the lightweight sheet metal stampings and fittings, and minimal machining in just the barrel and bolt revolutionized SMG development.....and LED to the M3, Uzi, PpSh 43, Mp-5, MAC, etc....

[polishshooter]

And Ps, this is a great post, and I don't think we've done it before either, believe it or not, maybe we should get one of the mods to use their "magic powers" and move it to History....??

[JohnK3]

I have to agree with Polish.

Although I *love* the Thompson and think it's the coolest SMG ever made, I still think the PPSh-41 was the better SMG for WWII.

Think about this: The Germans would take captured PPSh-41s and convert them to 9mm. How many Thompsons did they do this to? How many Stens were carried by the Germans as mass battlefield captures? The only reason they converted them to 9mm in the first place was because of ammo supply problems.

High cyclic rate, yet with the 7.62 Tokarev (a +P version of the .30 Mauser, in essence) it was controllable. Add in the 71 round drum and you needn't worry about how effective a single round was, you just put more into your target and he'd go down. Penetration was better than either the 9mm or the .45 ACP, which helped when shooting at someone behind light cover or penetrating a stahlhelm.

[polishshooter]

John, the 7.62 Tok round is really similar to a necked down 9mm case, isn't it?

That is also why so many .30 Broomhandles eventually got converted to 9mm too, right?

[Ursus]

If I could choose one, it woul'd be a Tommy. I'm supossing that I'm a combatant, so I don't care about how much it cost, I want to make it alive.
On the other hand if I were an odnance bean counter I'd take the Sten. About converting PPsh that has to be a lot easier than rebarreling a Tommy, so I dont think that is not that the germans prefer the PPsh per se.

[polishshooter]

I remember reading some famous memoir about the USMC on either Saipan or Kwajelien if I remember right,(maybe Leckie?) where he landed with a Garand, traded it for a Thompson from a wounded Marine the first day, but that night after the first Banzai charge scrounged around till he found an "untended" BAR which he carried until the Japs were all dead....THEN went back to a Thompson....


And why isn't anyone suggesting the Reising Model 55?

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

And Ps, this is a great post, and I don't think we've done it before either, believe it or not, maybe we should get one of the mods to use their "magic powers" and move it to History....??

Actually, my intention WAS to post it on the History Forum, Polish, which is where it really belongs. To be honest, I inadvertantly goofed by posting it here. Maybe SoMo, IPT, or one of the others will move it for us.

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Actually, PS, the Thompson was GREAT and RELIABLE, but fails in the main test, price and manufacturing ease.

I can't disagree with you on that, Polish. Manufacturing difficulty and cost were the factors that eventually spelled the demise of the ol' "Chicago violin." It's a beautiful weapon, and the troops who were lucky enough to get hold of one loved it with a passion. I can't really agree with you on its replacement, however. Yeah, the Grease Gun worked, after a fashion, and yes, it was extremely easy to manufacture--stamped sheet metal parts and all--but it jammed too often and most of the troops who used it found it very ackward to use. I've handled one, though never fired it, and I too did not like its "feel."

Originally Posted by polishshooter

But having said that, the PpSh has to be the best from WWII...

You know, Polish, I sometimes think you really should consider changing your handle to "Russianshooter" based on your opinion of Russian weapons! I must agree, however, that the Russians did do something extremely bright with that weapon. Its ease of manufacture made it possible to produce it in vast numbers, which is precisely what was needed to arm the Russian cannon fodder. Besides, it gave the Rooskies something to fight with that wasn't essentially a pike with a barrel stuck on as an afterthought. I've read accounts of that weapon as it was used at Stalingrad and, you're right, it was an extremely effective close-in weapon for street fighting.

My own second choice, after the Thompson, would indeed be the German MP38 or MP40, based solely on its design quality coupled with its relative ease of manufacture. Trouble was, the Germans, as usual, couldn't focus on one weapon and manufacture it in enough quantity to make a difference. The Germans really broke new ground with that firearm and many later SMG developments were based on it at least to some degree.

[polishshooter]

No, when people found out I was Polish, with a name like "Russianshooter" I'd prolly get INVESTIGATED by whatever agency passes for the KGB nowadays....

What's funny is pretty much all my interest in Russian stuff drops off markedly if it doesn't shoot 7.62x54R...OR maybe 7.62 Nagant or Tokarev...Maybe it's the "History," or that I LIVED through the era when the x39 was being SHOT at us, but I've owned and fired many SKSs and fired several AKs, and they don't do a thing for me...(Kinda like shooting a MAUSER )...MAYBE one of the SOG RPKsthey have in their flyer recently would do it, but I don't know, maybe if it can't double as a pry bar or a hammer I don't like it ...about the ONLY "modern" Russian stuff besides the Makarov 9x18 I really like is the Dragunovs and of course, the Dragunov only because it shoots a REAL rifle round....

Plus you already KNOW my aversion to just about anything GERMAN...although I used to put a lot of miles on a VW Golf every year, and owned a Jetta and a Vanagon too when the US automakers were making crap in the 80s, (and all but the Vanagon were made in the USA anyway... )but I don't like to talk much about THAT....

Now I wouldn't mind a nice POLISH Mauser, THOSE are probably the best.....or one of those ceremonial Polish SKSs (even if they WERE made in E. Germany) or a Polish AKM...if they shoot anywhere NEAR as well as the Radom made M44s I'd be in Kielbasa Heaven...

[SouthernMoss]

Thread is moved.

[Pistolenschutze]

Thanks, SoMo!! {{{{{}}}}} <------ Mucho hugs.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

No, when people found out I was Polish, with a name like "Russianshooter" I'd prolly get INVESTIGATED by whatever agency passes for the KGB nowadays....

Even worse, it might be the Geheimstatz Polizei (armed with Mausers and Walthers)!

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Maybe it's the "History," or that I LIVED through the era when the x39 was being SHOT at us, but I've owned and fired many SKSs and fired several AKs, and they don't do a thing for me...(Kinda like shooting a MAUSER )

I remember the AKs (and the SKSs too, for that matter) all too well from Vietnam, Polish. I handled and shot many, many of them while in country since the Russians and Chineese supplied them to Charlie by the thousands (and we blew them up by the thousands too). I actually rather like the SKS and own two of them today that I use mostly as plinkers. They're not bad rifles, really, albeit crude, though I think they are much too heavy and bulky to be good battle rifles. The AK is a different kettle of fish though. Even today the sound of an AK on full auto gives me the willies.

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Now I wouldn't mind a nice POLISH Mauser, THOSE are probably the best.....

Isn't "Polish Mauser" something of an oxymoron, Polish? Kinda like "well- finished Mosin Nagant."

Actually, you are quite correct. The Polish did build a Mauser rifle, the Kbk 29. As I recall, it was a bit shorter than the K98 and the later versions of it were made of an even stronger steel than the German K98s. The Germans issued the ones they captured in Poland to their own troops.

[17thfabn]

John K 3 I also voted for the Soviet weapon. But what is a stahlhelm?

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by 17thfabn

John K 3 I also voted for the Soviet weapon. But what is a stahlhelm?

It's the German name for a military helmet, 17. "Stahlhelm" translates as "steel helmet."

[southernshooter]

Out of that list I would say the Sten. But all in all of all the guns of that era my favorite Sub would be the Krinkov

[Pistolenschutze]

Hmmmm, maybe I should have included the one and only Polish submachine gun of WWII among the choices. They did build one, you know, although only a very few were actually produced before the war. It was the "Pistolet maszynowy wz. 1939 Mors" (Submachine Gun type 1939 Mors) in 9mm Parabellum, designed by Piotr Wilniewczyc and Jan Skrzypinski and built by Fabryka Karabinów, Warsaw, Poland. It was a rather good blow-back design with a cyclic rate of fire around 500 rpm. I understand the Germans wanted to copy it, but they gave up when none of their engineers could figure out how to read the blueprints or spell the name of the weapon.

[JohnK3]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

John, the 7.62 Tok round is really similar to a necked down 9mm case, isn't it?

That is also why so many .30 Broomhandles eventually got converted to 9mm too, right?

.30 Mauser C96s converted to 9mm were, again, because the German army was standardizing on 9mm Parabellum (Si vis pacem, parabellum.)

In a C96, with its small magazine capacity, the .30 Mauser was less effective than in the larger capacity, full-auto PPSh. Yes, you'd get a higher percentage of the mythical "one-shot stop" with a 9mm Parabellum than you would with a single .30 Mauser, but remember, the 71 round drum, coupled with its relatively tight groups under full auto, meant that you could put the same or more energy into the enemy, relatively speaking, with the PPSh, than you could with other SMG designs.

True Story:

Buddy of mine and I went to a local indoor range that rents full-auto weapons. First time we went, we rented a Thompson and an MP-5. I hated the MP-5. Wide groups and inaccurate even in single shot made the MP-5 very unattractive to me. The Thompson, on the other hand, was much more accurate and had tighter groups. Add the fact that it was flinging a heavier piece of lead downrange and I very much favored the Thompson.

Second trip, we rented a PPSh and an Uzi. My friend, who is 6'3" tall and almost 400 lbs, disliked the PPSh immensely. First time he picked it up, he tried to hit the target with a headshot, single round. He hit the beefed-up clothes hanger they used to hang the targets from. The hanger fell to the ground and took our target with it. I had to trudge back out and get a new hanger, paying a second $5 fee for his little fubar. New hanger, new target, run it out again and Erik tries for the headshot, again. Hits the hanger, AGAIN. Evidently, the sights needed adjusting, not to mention the stock was MUCH too short for a large man like Erik, undoubtedly throwing his aim off. Fortunately, we were able to recover the hanger and bend it mostly back into shape and continue our fun. I told Erik that he was forbidden to try anymore headshots with the PPSh.

Erik loved the Uzi, however, while I was less than enamored with its folding stock and odd grip safety. (Don't have a problem with grip safeties on handguns of any sort, but it seemed very out of place on an SMG!)

[polishshooter]

One shot CONSISTENT stops on the target hanger, that's pretty impressive, ...repeatability!

[Alakar]

I've fired all 5 of the weapons listed and the one I would prefer to carry would be the Thompson.

That said, understanding the need for easy production and low cost, I would have to vote for the MP40. Stamped sheet metal receiver, easy to make, fairly well balanced and pretty reliable.

Second would be the M3 series. Very cheap and reliable, but the balance isn't as good a the MP40 and I always found the low rate of fire to be uncomfortable.

The PPsH and the STEN I rank together. Both are good from a production perspective, but are crude in the extreme. My personal experience with them showed fairly frequent malfunctions, although the PPsH improved when used with a stick magazine, instead of the drum and the STEN fired better if you carefully avoided any contact with the magazine.

[NickSS]

I know an ex German Soldier who Fought on the eastern front during WWII He told me that he and his buddies loved the Russian 91/30s and the PPSH 41 subguns. The rifles because they were more accurate than the 98Ks they were issued and the Subgun because it would work under all conditions, had a high rate of fire, did not jam as much as the MP40s and you could carry a lot more ammo for them for the same weight. He told me he through his Mauser away and got a russian ppsh whenever he could lay hands on one. Careful questioning revieled that the problem with the Mauser was its high discomfort ratio. He told me his shoulder would be black and blue after firing only 40 rounds or so. The Russian rifle kicked less. I guess those 198 gr 8MM rounds did him in when compared to the 154 gr russian rounds in the Nagant.

My Uncle who fought in WWII told me that he got a thompson as soon as he landed on Guatal Canal but got ride of it for two reasons. It was only good at short range and tha ammo weighed too much. He carried an M1 for the rest of the war. He said the M1 had plenty of firepower and if you shot a Jap he went down like now.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

I score two for the USSR, this one and the Russian .30 short still living today and the most prolific still in service be it subgunned or Assualt rifled.....it remains as strong today as it did when invented!! In truth it is not only the oldest but the best subgun caliber coming from the rifle instead of the other way around.


LTS

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

I had to say the PPSh41 and the PPS43, great guns and where easy to make. Not know for accuracy, but could kill large groups of people.

[MRMIKE08075]

one must consider a few factors...

the cost to produce a Thompson SMG vs the cost to produce a PPSH...

the time / skilled labor and materials involved to produce each gun...

the PPSH is more reliable in my opinion...

and i prefer the PPSH cartridge chioce for an SMG over the .45 acp...

best regards, mike.

[Light Coat]

Even though they are not accurate as far as my shooting has gone; the PPSH is likely the best SMG of the era. They were cheap bullet hoses with a fairly rapid cyclic rate to pump a lot of lead in the general direction of the enemy.

[ballista]

The Owen Gun
Number built 50,000
Weight 4.21 kg
Length 806 mm
Cartridge 9 mm parabellum
Rate of fire 700 round/min

Designed for jungle warfare, Top mounted magazine, Side offset sight, Can be fired when immersed in mud or sand without jamming (unlike other smgs of the time), Tested in WW2 and found superior to Sten and Thompson submachine guns, Ordered in WW2 by Australia New Zealand and USA, Used in WW2 Korean and Vietnam wars, popular with soldiers due to robustness reliability and simplicity, Fires single shot or full automatic via trigger pressure, Easy to strip no small parts, Bakelite plastic grips, Dual feed magazine, downward ejection, has bayonet and silencer attachments.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/owen_gun.txt
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...t/aberdn14.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Gun