Home Defense for New Shooter

[obxned]

Maverick 88 pump shotgun. It's about the lowest price, totally reliable, and it will do the job! I would use the low recoil 00 2 3/4" loads, and either 12 or 20 guage would be fine.

[martbo]

Congratulations on the baby.

Now to inject another bite to chew on. My wife's home defense is a .38 revolver with a laser site. It is a bit unnerving to see the red dot on your chest. We also took a cheap laser pen from WallyWorld and duct taped it to the barrel of our pump shotgun. In our case, the laser is only for looks but the person staring at the business end of a 12 guage only sees the Lincoln tunnel and a red light.

[stash247]

Martbo, why the question? I am 58 y/o, 155#, and never been bigger; If I tell you, in a manner that you believe, that I am gonna cut off your whatever, and shove it down your wherever, and you buy in, I win, as I own your mind, at the point you 'bought in'!
If you, or your wife, can convince a potential 'dead guy' without firing a shot, to 'go away, and bother someone else', this is where you want to be, exactly!
Bro, the problems start when the shooting stops, unless you live in the country, and have a back hoe.
If the bad guy 'get's it', and most will, with the 'little red dot', you are way ahead of the game!
My personal choice, see General Discussion, has a tail, and an appetite, but lets me know, way early, should something be wrong in Smallville, and takes the initial defensive action, without a word!
Personally, 'home defense' ought to be a canine subject, IMHO, I will raise a shotgun, or a rifle, given the time, to defend my dogs, and even use a pistol, on short notice, but the dogs are smarter, and more alert, than the bad guys, again, IMHO.

[clmanges]

Sounds strange, I know, but hear the whole story; whether you are dumping an ounce and a quarter of 00 Buck, or the same ounce and a quarter, of nines, the energy is the same, on the receiving end,

Sorry, but this is incorrect. The mistake is in thinking that a given muzzle energy delivers the same damage regardless of how it's distributed. Think instead, of each pellet as a separate bullet. At a given velocity, a bigger pellet carries more weight, thus more energy, than a smaller one, by the simple equation:
F=MV
Force
Mass
Velocity
In smaller sizes of buckshot, the aggregate force of the load will be the same, but it will be divided by the number of pellets in the load. Fewer pellets, more energy in each one.

Check out this really cool website for more:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[clmanges]

Aha! Further searching of the Box O' Truth site finally got me to the one I wanted -- here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35_2.htm

Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".

Nope. Not at all. Because that 600 grain load is composed of 333 #6 sized shot, each weighing 1.8 grains.

And the penetration of the shot is dependant on the weight of "each pellet", not the total weight.

And a 1.8 grain pellet will not penetrate very far into a goblin.

That is why birdshot is for little birds and buckshot is for bad guys.

[stash247]

[QUOTE=clmanges;241017]Sorry, but this is incorrect. The mistake is in thinking that a given muzzle energy delivers the same damage regardless of how it's distributed. Think instead, of each pellet as a separate bullet. At a given velocity, a bigger pellet carries more weight, thus more energy, than a smaller one, by the simple equation:
F=MV
An ounce and a quarter of sand would have the same energy, at indoor ranges, as an ounce and a quarter slug, as there is no difference in their mass, and no appreciable loss in velocity, at fifteen feet!
One of the differences between nines, and buck, is the legal aspects of the ammo, if a civil 'wrongful death' action is brought against you, or a suit for damages from a suurvior.
Loaded with buck, in Ohio, where many deer hunters use a shotgun, you might offer a "Sporting Ammo" enplanation; here in Texas, most hunters use a rifle, so such an explanation just wouldn't fly, though many use nines for skeet, or doves.
Hit with buck, the bad guy's ER surgeon can rapidly find a dozen, more or less, 3/8" pellets, by xray, and rapidly remove them, in many cases, while if the BG was hit instead, with nines, the surgeon has more than a hundred pellets to find, and remove, meaning the BG's gonna be on thr table, all night!
And, consider unintended overpenetration; I can hit you with a telling shot, through your refrigerator door, with 00 Buck, as you could hit another in your home, thru drywall walls, which are even more 'transparent' to buck, than the refrigerator door!

[clmanges]

An ounce and a quarter of sand would have the same energy, at indoor ranges, as an ounce and a quarter slug, as there is no difference in their mass, and no appreciable loss in velocity, at fifteen feet!

You're halfway there, Stash. Now, to get the rest of the way there, substitute an ounce and a quarter of talcum powder. Does that still have the same energy? It's still an ounce and a quarter, isn't it?

[stash247]

Grasshopper, you are not listening!
If I shoved a 12 gauge, up against your belly, with an ounce and a quarter of talcum powder, say, 2 " below your navel, you would never make it to the hospital,with a pulse!
You are correct, that in this extreme case, there would be extreme velocity loss, at even a short distance from the muzzle, due to projectile density.
A 'contact wound' with such a load, would not be survivable, given good aplication, of even such a round.
Same internal balliastics, different, out of the barrel, but the 'worst case' scenario, were I on the receiving end, IMHO!
This is an esoteic digression, from the topic, but having dealt with hundreds of 'gunshot wound victims', I feel qualified to reply.
Sure, you can lower the mass, increase the loss of velocity, even at 15 feet, to a huge change in energy; obviate that factor, by making it a 'contact wound' shooting, and you are still a 'dead player'.
My original post is valid; ask the survivors!

[martbo]

Stash, my comments weren't a question. I was trying to make a statement and didn't write as well as it sounded in my head. But, you made the statement far better than I could. THANKS.

[stash247]

Matrbo, Lil Bro, I did not take it for a question; My point, exactly, was, that once I control your mind, I own your A**!
I'm not real big, but years ago, when I healed some quicker, I closed a lot of bars with fights in which I spotted somebody else a hundred pounds, or more, and walked away.
In such a circumstance, I'll talk about your Momma, your sister, your girlfriend, wife, or both, just to get you really 'riled up', at which point you lose perspective, from anger> adrenaline, and get real 'Stoopid'!
The same point goes for the laser, but it is a far better, less destructive approach, hopefully saving the expense of ammo, and defense, later.
I took your suggestion a bit further, true enough, but it was your idea, and a damned fine one!
If your 'Goblin' has an ounce of sense, a shotgun, and a laser dot, ought to spell 'Lights out' for him, at which point, he can retreat, or die; the choice is his, but, at least, you have given him every opportunity to live!
And yourself, a very reasonable excuse for shooting, should it ever come to court!
EXCELLENT LOGIC!!!

[bdfinst]

Clmanges is right. I've spent years on various firearms forums listening to gun urban legends. Finally theboxotruth.com came along to be the mythbusters of guns. Thank God.

Yes, if you hold a 12 guage full of sand against someone's belly and pull the trigger, he won't feel very well in the morning (the same would be true if you were firing blanks), but the odds of that shot are pretty slim. How do you keep him from gaining control of the muzzle?

While 1.5 oz of #7 has the same mass as 1.5 oz of 00 buck, the energy of the #7 drops off significantly after leaving the barrel. Assuming the same amount of powder and same total shot weight, the #7 and the 00 will have the same muzzle velocity, however, each #7 pellet weighs significantly less than a 00 pellet. The formula for kenetic energy is Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity squared. So, energy drops in proportion to the mass.
Common sense bears this out as well. You would never think of using a 115 grain load of snake shot for personal defence, while a 115gr 9mm is perfectly acceptable. You also wouldn't use #7 bird shot for deer hunting because it doesn't penetrate far enough to reach the vitals in a large animal (i.e. man).

Never use a load for personal defense that is less effective that a deer load.

To those who think you can be sloppy with aiming a shotgun, I'd advise you to go pattern your gun at defensive ranges. You might be surprised.

For years, I've heard about the over penetration issue with rifle rounds. According to the testing done at BOT, a 45 ACP will penetrate through 12 sheets of sheetrock. That's the equivalent of 6 walls. Since it appears that handgun ammo is just as effective at penetrating all the way through my house as a rifle and based on the testing on shotguns at BOT, I'm switching from my Kahr 40 to a shotgun for the bedroom. I'd encourage everyone to read the following tests before making a decision on home defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Bryan

[gunlearner]

really i think a 16 or a 410 would do the trick
first the 12 gage is to big for her get her started with a 410 and work you way up

[bdfinst]

16 is nice. 12 isn't bad if you get an auto. I would think that 410 might not hold enough shot.