Dissapointed

[patrol]

Today at the range I had something happen that has never happened before with my two favorite 1911's. Both my Kimber ProcarryII and my Smith 1911 consistently double fed and jammed on falling to feed both with various magazines and good new winchester ball ammo 230grain!! I was so pissed off after I shot 200 rounds I put it away and spent the rest of the afternoon shooting my Hipower 9mm. Im actually depressed over the issue. They are both known for excellent quality. I have three other 1911's that I have shot way more rounds out of two of which are older 1911's the Colt and the Springfield that both have never malfunctioned and the Para LDA which used to misfeed consistently til I got it back from the factory. Do I really have to expect to pay $1000 or over for a 1911 that will be reliable? Im actually considering trading them both in. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[punchie]

Sounds like a imroperly fitted or gummed up extractor to me. I believe the Pro-Carry and the Smith both use external extractors (read that as cheaper, easier to assemble) instead of the original design.

[LDBennett]

Ship those turkey guns back to the factory for evaluation and repair, the sooner the better. Explain you depression about their performance with good Winchester ball ammo.

Personally, Kimbers have never impressed me much. I think they are overpriced. The S&W 1911 looks good but has a very high price tag for what you get. I took the bottom of the barrel route and got a Rock Island and totally customized it. I'll bet mine shoots better than most Kimbers or S&W do in their stock form and I probably have less invested. My RI is not as pretty (finish cost extra bucks in any firearm...hand labor) and may not be as robust (durable) but it sure is a lot of gun for the least money. As for 45ACP my favorite has to be my Sig P220. Both my Witness and CZ97 are good guns, just too big in the grip area for my small hands. My Colt Delta Elite in 10mm is the best 1911 I have seen so far that did not cost an arm and a leg (well maybe only an arm) and fits my small hands well.

LDBennett

[patrol]

Thanks for the advice. The accuracy of the pistols is excellent, especially the Smith but I can't have misfeeds. Im going to try my friends Wilson combat mags first and if they work I will just get a couple of those but they sure are pricey at 30bucks a piece on sale. Anyone have a Para with the newer power extractor? My 03 model LDA doesn't have that i wonder if the newer models with the power extractors feed flawlessly. Back to the factory they go. Thanks guys.

[Tomcatt]

Seems kinda funny that two different guns from different manufacturers would malfunction the same on the same day... Are you sure it wasn't something that you were doing? Or maybe you got a bad batch of ammo.

Tomcatt

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Tomcatt

Seems kinda funny that two different guns from different manufacturers would malfunction the same on the same day... Are you sure it wasn't something that you were doing? Or maybe you got a bad batch of ammo.

Tomcatt

My thoughts exactly. It's rare, but maybe that box of ammo is really bad. Too much coincidence here. Take a look at your ammo before burying your pistols in the back yard.

Those are quality guns that shouldn't be acting that way. But again, both on the same day, displaying the exact same problem? Hmmmm.

[patrol]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

My thoughts exactly. It's rare, but maybe that box of ammo is really bad. Too much coincidence here. Take a look at your ammo before burying your pistols in the back yard.

Those are quality guns that shouldn't be acting that way. But again, both on the same day, displaying the exact same problem? Hmmmm.

I thought the ammo also could have been a factor but the other 45 I shot my XD about 60 rounds with the ammo and not one misfeed or malfunction. Im going to try the factory mags only again then my friends Wilson mags and if they feed with same ammo Ill know it was the other aftermarket mags but still...even with aftermarket they should feed.

[Shooter45]

Alot of 1911 problems are mag related.

Also, a lot of aftermarket mags are crap. Use only quality 1911 mags such as Wilson Combat, Metalform or CMC.

[stash247]

Originally Posted by Shooter45

Alot of 1911 problems are mag related.

Also, a lot of aftermarket mags are crap. Use only quality 1911 mags such as Wilson Combat, Metalform or CMC.

Shooter, that was a mouthfull, but accurate; somewhere around 90%, I would guess!
The commonalities are two; shared mags, for the failing pistols, altogether different mags, for the XD, and ammo, which is fine in the XD, but causes failures in the two pistols with shared mags.
Were it my problem, I would have already ordered a set of lip forming dies from Brownells, or gone to Austin and bought a half dozen McCormic mags!
Since I already have the die set, cheap mags are repairable, but the idea of having to wonder "IF?" is unacceptable, in a carry gun!
My "Officers Model" is the fifth I went through, for reliability, as the first four were worth more to others; It is absolutely reliable, and acceptably accurate (3 1/2", at 50 yds), so, likely, will stick around for a while; it's been here at my side for nearly ten years, now!
I'd bet anything, Patrol, that mags will sove the problem!

[patrol]

Thanks for your input. I think I will try out my friends Wilson combat mags before I send both of them back. stash, thanks for the tip on the Chip Mccormick mags but thats mainly what I use and used that day. The eight rounders.

[deinonychus75]

Mmmm...sorry to hear about your troubles, patrol, but good to know as I was just drooling over a Kimber Ultra Carry II at a gun shop a couple of days ago. It'll be interesting to find out if the mags fix the prob. Odd that two different pistols would have the exact same issue on the same day.

[stash247]

Patrol, we await your results: please change nothing, do not clean, dis-assemble, or otherwise change anything on either pistol until you have tried the Wilson Mags, otherwise, we may never know what 'fixed the problem, or, even, what the problem was.
DO compare the profile of the bullet, in the ammo that gave malfunctions, to other 230 Gr Ball ammo that you may have, or better yet, have shot in the past with good reliability
I doubt you have an Optical Comparator, in the garage, but a local machine shop might just have one, and this would be the ultimate tool for profile comparison, of ammo.
Assuming the mag change does not fix the problem, let's go back to your original post' "Double fed, and Jammed, on failing to feed".
A 'double feed ' malfunction is when a mag lets two rounds go, at the same feed cycle; this surely congests the available space in the slide, behind the chamber; if you rack the slide, lock it back, and rotate the pistol to the right, 2 loaded rounds ought to fall to the ground. I have never seen this in a running 1911 pistol.
'Jammed', in terms I understand, is a single round, wedged between the breech face, and the top of the chamber mouth, or, the Breech face, and the feed ramp. These (either) could be caused by magazine lip dimensions, or geometry, or feed ramp condition, or geometry, but are usually, at least in the second case, associated with short, light, huge hollwpoint bullets, not ball ammo. They could also be caused by a tired recoil spring, really grungy slide ways, lack of lubrication, or any combination of these three; I lubricate the slide /frame ways with a dot ot two of Molebdenum Disulfide grease, (Nasty, Staining, Gray **** that works miracles, in many fields besides guns), and nothing else; dare to use more than two little balls of this stuff, balls the size of the one in a cheap ball point pen, per side, and it will come out, and stain your clothes, forever, when you fire the pistol! The recoil spring should be an 18, or 19 pound spring, for Ball ammo, in a 5" 1911;
shorter slides will require heavier springs. My Officer's model needs 22#, likes a 24# spring even better. When was it last changed, or, even seriously looked at? If you are not absolutely sure, replace it! And keep doing that, every 3-5,000 rounds, depending on the intensity of the loads you shoot! A Failure of this type would drop a single, loaded round, often with the bullet marked, or defomed, when the slide was jackedto the rear, and the pistol, rotated right.
A 'failure to feed' would say no round was stripped from the mag, as the slide ran forward, pushed by the recoil spring, into battery; the suspects here are the mag feed lips, the mag catch slot (Too high; round too low to be 'stripped' and shoved forward, into the chamber, and the mag spring, too weak to get the round up , before the slide has passed the base of the case, or, really dirty mags, binding the follower, and slowing it's rise.
In this case, jacking the slide, and locking it back, absolutely nothing would fall to the ground, when the weapon was rotated to the right.
My Detonics 'Combat Masters' all demand mag springs that would work well in mags an inch longer than theirs, because their slide 'cycle time' is somuch faster than a Gov't (5") model. A rare but possible longshot is a "too powerful" recoil spring, short cycling your slide, so as never to get behind the case head, in the mag, but rule out the 'cleanliness', and 'lubrication', issues, before ever considering this long shot!
If you want help, in finding and fixing this problem, you are in the right place; please, as you've gotten me interested, tell us all what, exactly, these pistols did

[mo jenkins]

Hey stash,

Thanks for the excellent write-up on 1911 malfs. I'm going to add it to my files of favorite "short and sweet" firearms info manuals.

Your buddy,
mo

[stash247]

Mo, and all, I am no ''Guru" on the subject, rather, way too familiar with what does NOT work, in certain areas; for that education, the tuition was sometimes very high!
In another light, I got some of the finest 'hands on' training that money could NOT buy!
Some of the old guys, most dead now, but a few still living, like Cooper, Swenson, Willing, Day, Ingraham, and Velchoff, were first my role models, then 'dream dates', finally, mentors; I often worked more or less free, simply to learn more of the craft they knew and plied so well.
I asked every one of them, at some time, to put the knowledge on paper, lest it be lost, but only one, ever did, and Jeff Cooper's writings addressed the mechanics in a superficial way, for the most part.
This is my position: Knowledge is only useful, if shared; otherwise, it is ultimately wasted, as we pass on, leaving others to pay the same 'dues', to acquire it, as we did!
I want my kids, my friends, my world, to be more than I could be,and will freely share what I have learned, with anyone; feel free to agree, and use the info, disagree, and look elsewhere, or call BS on me, if the spirit moves you to do so!
My grandfather was a Master Machinist, my uncle, a Tool and Die Maker, and I grew up with Grandpa, so it is no great surprise that I spent some time in that business, running everything from little Shaubln 'chucker' lathes, to 240" Cadillacs, Bridgeport mills, to Kellers.
At 18, I was running a Pratt and Whitney Jigbore, for Northrop Aircraft, at a better wage than many twice my age, because I could!
Forget all that bs, and focus, on WHY?
I had both a Grandfather, and an Uncle, who believed to the death, that the only worth of knowledge was in sharing; They had me competent, by nine or ten, with more tools and machinery than I could ever own!
Mo, what I gave to you was a synopsis of some of the mistakes, and tutoring, I have gone through, over several years, simply to first, truly identify the problem, and second, to save you, and others, some money.
Swenson was building "Ultra Compact" .45's, in the 60's, and I was watching; if he said a 24# spring would do, nothing less, that was the law; He, truly, was the first GURU; he could make anything work, if done 'his way'.
And he was not in the least, in my experience, stingy, about sharing his knowledge, whether of success,or failure! He was a cherished mentor!
To the point, this forum is a valuable resource, to me, and others, as we share what we know, and that is a 'Good thing'!. But, what I offered ought rightly be attributed to A. D. Swenson; I was but the messenger.

[patrol]

Originally Posted by deinonychus75

Mmmm...sorry to hear about your troubles, patrol, but good to know as I was just drooling over a Kimber Ultra Carry II at a gun shop a couple of days ago. It'll be interesting to find out if the mags fix the prob. Odd that two different pistols would have the exact same issue on the same day.

Thats why i thought it could have been the ammo.

[patrol]

Update on the "DISSAPOINTED" situation. Ok, polished both the feed ramps of the lower receivers and the little lip plate of the chamber on the barrels. I was about to order the Wilson Combat mags and still may. The Smith and Kimber Procarry, shot "Just" name brand mags that came with the two pistols the smith is a "Actmag" or something and the Kimber Pro is a "Kimber mag" shot 100 rounds in each with various hollow points and ball some 230 some 200grain and all fed fine, even with me combat "fan firing" as fast as I could go you know where you lock in your arm real tight to your side and use your whole index finger opposite hand and simply go to it. With that "no" jams of like I said on both 200 various rounds.

[patrol]

Update/ Ok the last post I conducted the shooting test on Friday. This morning early I went to shoot with the two both dirty guns and this time I found out the problem. I have like five 8 round ChipMccormick magazines and 1 of them continued to cause jams in both pistols(I think the Smith Sc1911 and the Kimber ProcaryII are actually made by the same designer) anyway i found out I had one that was bad. I will take it apart and stretch out the springs I guess. It was one of the one's with the screw on plastic butt plates. First time I ever had a problem with a Chip Mccormick and thought they were the best bargain qual mags out there compared to high dollar Wilson mags at double the price tag. Im not a magazine expert but actually the aftermarket mags ive used for my sig p220 and the Beretta, Taurus and Browning is "Mecgar" and ive never had issues with those and they are cheaper than both Wilson and Mccormick. Maybe Ill try those before I pay thirty bucks for a Wilson mag.

[stash247]

Hey, Patrol:
Did the mags fix the problem/ more properly, did eliminating the bad one do it???
Just personal preference, but all my mags will run in all my 1911's, or they are "gun show" fodder!
Whem I pick up a pistol, I mean to shoot, and anything that does not work at 100% is unacceptable, in my book.
I am long and far away from 'Combat duty', with the Army, but remain alert and able, for the sake of 'urban survival', so, still maintain my skills and gear, at the 'ready' level, from the service.
I just sent a check to the Hospital, for ER treatment of a small wound, to the leg, of a young lady who would not back down from one of my dogs, who was but 'defending her turf', from the young lady's invasion; not exactly my problem, but she is the stepdaughter of a co-worker, and a little slow, to boot!
Point is, my **** worked; the Lil dog did exactly what she should have done, in covering my six, and even though it was not 'under attack', she did what she did, as though it was!
Cost me 1100 bucks, more or less, but may tell you a bit about how I feel about functional gear, and dogs!
Interestingly ,we spent yesterday, at the river, accompanied by several young children, all of whom she is acquainted with, and three of them were pulled from the water, by her, when they were close to washing away, with no fanfare, whatsoever.
The Dog is a "Winner", in my eyes, hands down, because she is a 'natural Protector', a 'Lassie' in short stature!
But, all our gear ought to work like this; at the highest level, all the time !
I paid the price, far more than the cost of a good magazine, for an active and protective dog, and would again, because I know how much 'cheap gear'
(**** that don't work) can cost, when it fails to function.
Hope this offers some guidance.

[therockrt72]

hey stash247

i gotta question for you. i have a colt IV/Series 70 slide and barrel but its on a para-ordnance frame with a double stack magazine.

This is my dad's gun that he's just recently given to me. Now he's no gun expert or anything and never took much care of it, but as of recent the gun has been jamming and not releasing the empty shell properly.

what im asking is, what to do with this little problem.

[straightShot]

When you have a bunch of magazines and start having problems, number the mags to eliminate the problem. That being said, I had a stock mag for my Khimber Ultra Carry, bought another Chip McCormack "Shooting Star" mag (turned out to be identical to the factory mag), and both mags gave me nothing but trouble. I tried a Wilson Combat magazine, and I now have 12 Wilson Combat 7 rounders.

I won't look back. Magazines don't give me problems anymore, and I've fired many, many rounds.

Good luck.