Barrel Fowling

[madc0w2000]

I have several questions that if someone could answer would be great! It has a 1:48 twist and I understand I can use conicals in it, but could I use also sabot rounds? I have also read that some people use FFF and others use just FF powder, which size would you recommend and at what grain would you start off with to sight it in? I am planning to use Great Plains 385Gr conicals. I am thinking of using Tripple 7 because it suppose to keep fouling down.

I have Winchester X-150 .50 cal and loved shooting them, but thought to try my hand at a hammer since it seems that more states are banning inlines.

Thanks for you help.

I merged these two threads at Mad's request. It makes more sense this way - Pops

[madc0w2000]

I have a couple of questions if someone could help me out. I have searched the web for information on loading it and what I can shoot and quite frankly, I am totally confussed!! I have a Winchester X-150 .50 cal so I know how to shoot that with pellets, but this something totally different to me.

Since the barrel has a 1:48 twist to it I understand I can shoot conicals, but can I shoot sabots? I see some peopel use FFF and some use FF powder. I want to use Tripple 7 since it seems to be the least fouling, is this a good powder to use and how much to start off with? I am planning to use Great Plains 385gr conicals for deer, elk and hopefully bear.

Thank you for your help.

[armedandsafe]

I had one of the Cabella's Hawkins.The operative word here is "had," as my granddaughter got her hands on it.

The sabots will present no problem with that barrel. Try round balls, conicals of several sizes, PowerBelts and sabots. One type/weight will shoot better than the others. The roundball has plenty of energy to down deer at reasonable ranges (~100 yards.) The others have better ranges, and potentially, better accuracy. Mine shot deer-accuracy with the PowerBelts. I am not allowed to use sabots here in this state for hunting, so havent tried them.

I consider the .50 to be a 'tweener in powder reguirements. I use FFFg for round ball and FFg for the heavier bullets. MY theory is that the lighter bullet does better with the faster powder and the heavier ones like the slower grind.

Again, shoot some with the FFFg and some with the FFg to find out which your rifle likes best.

Aw, shucks! You are going to have to go shoot that thing.

Pops

[madc0w2000]

Thanks Pops for your response!!! I live over here in Bremerton, across the water from Seattle. I went to the side hammer because I am hearing more states banning inlines, so I thought I better jump on the wagon. It comes in tommorrow and I am SOOOOOOO excited.

[armedandsafe]

WARNING!!!!!!! "Shootin' Dirty" is addictive!

Pops

[madc0w2000]

I know!! Wife wants to go bear hunting next month, think I'll take "O betsy" with me!!!!!!!

[madc0w2000]

I finally got the Hawkins this past Friday, beautiful looking gun. In the manual it says the max powder rating for a 385gr conical using pyrodex is 64 grains. That seems light to me, I have used 100gr of pyrodex pellets in the inlines with no problem. Can I go above 64gr in the hawkens or can it not withstand it? I am planning to use Great Plains 385gr conicals for hunting and I still got to take her out and shoot it, but am looking for a starting point and max point of powder to use.

thank you for your help.

[armedandsafe]

That seems very low to me, also. I don't shoot that heavy a bullet, but I'm accustomed to using 90-100gr under my ~250gr conicals. Do a look up and see what Remington has to say about that, as (I believe) their rifles are made by the same company.

Pops

[armedandsafe]

From T/C page:
http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpow...rifleloads.htm

Renegade & Hawken, 50 caliber
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lbs

Note the 370gr load is up to 100gr powder.

Pops

[armedandsafe]

Goex generic data for that sixe bullet says 50 to 100 grains.

Hodgon data:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzlelo.../50conical.php

777 or Pyrodex pellets
50 Caliber Muzzleloading Rifles

Conical Bullet Loads

(All conical bullet loads require the use of a felt wad between the Pellets and the base of the bullet. Do not reduce powder charge for 50 caliber loads. Conical bullets with or without fiber or felt wads are not recommended in 54 caliber rifles when Pyrodex Pellets are used.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet
Powder Charge (Gr.) Pellets Used *
Velocity (FPS)

350 Gr. T/C Maxi Hunter 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr. 1518

370 Gr. T/C Maxi Ball 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr. 1344
370 Gr. T/C Maxi Ball 90 Three 50 cal. / 30 gr. 1415
370 Gr. T/C Maxi Ball 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr. 1515

385 Gr. Hdy. Great Plains 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr. 1547

Hodgdons loose powder chart:
(Spacing is funny on this cut'n'paste, but note that it goes up to 100gr.)

50 CALIBER POWDER MEASURE SETTING TRIPLE SEVEN FFG
Bullet & Sabot
70 GR. 80 GR. 90 GR. 100 GR.

240 Gr. Hdy. XTP 50/44 1633 1703 1806 1883
300 Gr. Nosler Shots 50/44 1466 1606 1645 1713
250 Gr. Bar. MZ 50/45 1609 1705 1775 1847
260 Gr. Spr./Blk. Sabot 50/45 1602 1688 1757 1811
250 Gr. Hdy. SST 50/45 1590 1681 1760 1835
300 Gr. TC XTP 50/45 1471 1600 1659 1746
348 Gr. CVA Power Belt 1424 1465 1542 1664
385 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1329 1423 1517 1613
410 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1276 1366 1460 1508

50 CALIBER POWDER MEASURE SETTING TRIPLE SEVEN FFFG
Bullet & Sabot
70 GR. 80 GR. 90 GR. 100 GR.

240 Gr. Hdy. XTP 50/44 1690 1761 1867 1927
300 Gr. Nosler Shots 50/44 1462 1609 1651 1729
250 Gr. Bar. MZ 50/45 1594 1752 1823 1905
260 Gr. Spr./Blk. Sabot 50/45 1589 1683 1794 1865
250 Gr. Hdy. SST 50/45 1625 1748 1836 1909
300 Gr. TC XTP 50/45 1548 1642 1744 1819
348 Gr. CVA Power Belt 1471 1500 1595 1663
385 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1360 1461 1541 1605
410 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1383 1445 1503 1594

50 CALIBER POWDER MEASURE SETTING
PYRODEX RS & SELECT (FFG)
Bullet & Sabot
70 GR. 80 GR. 90 GR. 100 GR.

240 Gr. Hdy. XTP 50/44 1447 1555 1627 1719
300 Gr. Nosler Shots 50/44 1333 1500 1524 1613
250 Gr. Bar. MZ 50/45 1445 1537 1618 1700
260 Gr. Spr./Blk. Sabot 50/45 1416 1520 1584 1647
300 Gr. TC XTP 50/45 1364 1451 1521 1593
250 Gr. Hdy. SST 50/45 1459 1567 1623 1706
348 Gr. CVA Power Belt 1262 1336 1386 1509
385 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1211 1297 1369 1433
410 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1187 1266 1340 1408

50 CALIBER POWDER MEASURE SETTING
PYRODEX P (FFFG)
Bullet & Sabot
70 GR. 80 GR. 90 GR. 100 GR.

240 Gr. Hdy. XTP 50/44 1514 1595 1673 1775
300 Gr. Nosler Shots 50/44 1403 1565 1596 1658
250 Gr. Bar. MZ 50/45 1503 1604 1688 1792
260 Gr. Spr./Blk. Sabot 50/45 1466 1548 1645 1717
300 Gr. TC XTP 50/45 1422 1489 1599 1667
250 Gr. Hdy. SST 50/45 1499 1592 1667 1773
348 Gr. CVA Power Belt 1308 1392 1479 1560
385 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1242 1333 1424 1499
410 Gr. Hdy. Conical w/ Wad 1216 1304 1394 1415

Hope that helps.

Pops

[polishshooter]

Madcow, my son and I have been having good luck for years shooting the Buffalo Ballet from his CVA caplock .50 Hawken Carbine with 95 grains of FFFg...it's 245 gr and acts like a Minie ball...gives nice accuracy at 100 and doesn't recoil like the 300+gr balls do...he got his first buck with it when he was 13, dropped it cleanly.

I was originally looking for a "light" load for him when we built it a year earlier, but it shoots so nicely, that's all we ever use in it. (I "borrow" it when it's too wet out for my flintlock... ) It loads easily, prelubed, no patch needed, just ram it home on top the powder charge.

I've never chronographed it, but I'd have to guess we are pushing 1600-1700 fps from that shorter barrel, and it's more "flat" shooting than a heavier bullet....and his is 1:48 too.


One thing about blackpowder shooting, is don't overload it, and make sure you try the smaller loads and work up...not necessarily for safety, but for accuracy....most of them shoot much more accurately with lesser loads, and you will still have plenty of power. Guys get really aggressive stuffing powder down their smokepoles to get "power" thinking more is better and many times are defeating the purpose


Most "Frontiersmen" took a lot of deer, bear and elk, in Kentucky in the late 1700s and early 1800s, with only about 40 grains of powder behind at most .40 caliber ball....to save lead and powder! My 65gr behind a roundball I use in my .45 flintlock would have been considered a HEAVY load back then...

Plus be sure to shoot it over fresh snow when you get to your "max" load, it can be an eye opener...if you see "pepper" in front of you, you might as well reduce the load to save powder, you sure as heck aren't BURNING it all...

[madc0w2000]

Thank you one and all!!!! The information you have given me is a wealth of knowledge!! Very anxious to take it out and get it bloody!!!

[millwright]

All this chatter about BP guns with sabots and such - sheesh !!

A 1:48" twist ain't a "compromise" its plain bad for ball - as is modern rifling. Its too wide and deep. Patch and ball requires a slow twist 1:60 is good but with a shallow cut narrow rifling the patch can seal easily. Oldtimers used to have the rifling recut when accuracy dropped off. This sort of rifling doesn't foul as much, either...... >MW

[madc0w2000]

Been looking at a replacement barrel, 32" with a 1:60 twist to it. Have read where a 1:28 twist is great for sabot and conicals. Was hoping that the 1:48 twist would be a perfect inbetween twist.

[armedandsafe]

Rifling of 1:48" is a compromise for hunting accuracy. If you are hunting deer//elk/moose your accuracy doesn't need to be as tight as if you are hunting gnats. Like all compromises, it is not the best, but it gets the job done. that twist will give you 1.5 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. Playing with loads and patchs can tighten groups. Getting more power at the expense of missing the animal doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but many shooters don't think of that part of the equation.

Pops

[madc0w2000]

That is one thing I have noticed reading the forums, that power is not everything. In fact, I saw on one forum a formula that you use to show you the maximum amount of powder that you can put in a BL that will be COMPLETELY burned before exiting the muzzle. With mine being a 28" barrel, the formula says that anything over 63Gr of BP will be just blown out the barrel. So I can see there is ALOT of experimenting to do, but once you get her dialed in, I truely believe that she can stand up to a modern firearm using iron sights at 100yds!!

Can not say thank you enough times for the help I have recieved from this forum!!!