Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win - The Firearms Forum

Tom Militano · 08-17-2007, 03:03 PM

Does anyone have any opinions on these or own one? Are they .308 Winchester or 7.62x51 NATO? They are different rounds.

polishshooter · 08-17-2007, 03:49 PM

Tom, funny you should ask....

We just got through talking about this in "Ask the experts?" under the thread about the CETME rifle in 7.62x51...

But here is the link you should see, it explains it pretty well...

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...nato/index.asp

The short answer is the 7.62 CETME round is what the Guardia Civil mauser was made or converted to fire, but it's just a little less than the NATO round, the CETME round produced around 42000 CUP, but the original 7x57 Mauser the rifle was designed to fire produced around 46000 CUP so the general consensus is that it would be OK to shoot the 7.62 NATO at around 50000 cup but not the .308 Winchester which AVERAGES around 62000 cup....plus chamber dimensions are slightly differenet too, to make it easier for NATO rifles to fire ammo made in different countries, which means that extra pressure does things it wouldn't do in a tight commercial .308 Win chamber....

Some (stupid?) people DO shoot .308 Winchester through them successfully, you can read guys on the net claiming that all the time, but the PROBLEM is that due to differences in military chambers, AND the softer metal in those Mausers, eventually will cause headspace issues, both in the CHAMBER and with the BOLT head, possibly over a long time, but also possibly QUICKLY and unexpectedly, and since most catastrophic failures by Mausers are DIRECTLY preceded by excessive headspace indications....so you can see the issue....a potential timebomb...

So stick to the NATO rounds, OR light .308 reloads, while you should not have a problem, still check for excessive headspace even then...

Which is the MAIN reason I prefer my Milsurps to shoot RIMMED rounds....and the MAIN reason I think Mosins are superior to Mausers at least as BATTLE rifles....headspace is RARELY an issue, and you do NOT hear of Mosins or Enfields blowing up in "normal use," with the ammo for which they were CHAMBERED.....even HANDLOADS with higher pressure...(HHhmmmm, Mauser guys USUALLY like GLOCKS too, don't they....HHHHHmmmmm....

)and even if they ever WOULD develop headspace issues (They RARELY do....) it's MUCH easier to spot, just by inspecting the last quarter inch or so of the case right in front of the RIM....

I owned one of those Mausers for a short while but couldn't bring myself to fire it and sold it, which was probably a good thing, because at the TIME I didn't know there WAS a difference between the .308 Win and the NATO round....

Tom Militano · 08-17-2007, 06:11 PM

I think I'll leave them alone. Thanks for the reply.

polishshooter · 08-22-2007, 09:33 AM

Yeah, Tom, a LONG time ago I put a Spanish M1916 Mauser in ".308" on my wish list, thinking it would be light and handy and easy to find ammo for, but when the time came and I actually BOUGHT one I couldn't bring myself to shoot it....even though at the time I didn't FULLY understand the difference in ammo, I had heard ENOUGH discussion to make me wonder, and that small ring Mauser just didn't seem all that "robust...."

The good news is I got my money out of it without much trouble....

RamblerReb · 08-25-2007, 08:39 PM

Just my .02, but I also had one of these and, while I never had any problems with lug setback or other pressure issues, that thing shot about five feet high at 50 yards, not to mention kicking like a damn mule. I think it was Ackley or maybe Hatcher who said "I am only interested in accurate rifles." Amen. I got rid of it.

CCubed · 09-22-2007, 08:09 AM

Wise move, Tom. Stay away!!! (Unless you're going to hand-load 7.62x51 brass to 7x57 Mauser pressure specs.) A decently priced FR8, though, I'd pick up...or have the headspace checked first, then buy (if it's not excessive). The 98 action can handle 7.62 NATO ammo, by all accounts.

AngelDeville · 09-22-2007, 01:38 PM

WOW, I just learned a lot!

A quick reference of my re-loads has revealed that I have kept mine under42,000 CUP's. BUT I may keep an eye out for 762 surplus ammo, since I rarely shoot mine.

I kept my loads down out of respect for 60+ year old metallurgy, and it looks like I may have dodged a bullet....err... bolt.....

kfb2b · 09-24-2007, 02:19 PM

I have had one for more than 10 years and have fired it extensively, but I know what I have in my hands and treat it accordingly. there are guys who hear "mauser" and think they have a cheap way to make it a 300mag. I took the ooposite, and have mine loaded to 30-40 krag velocity/pressure, and the old girl can sure sling 'em. bear in mind that until recently the largest elk ever taken was with a 30-40, so it is plenty good enough.

Just know what you have and use it accordingly, an you will have a fine rifle

Popgunner · 09-24-2007, 08:05 PM

This topic was discussed on another forum where one of the guys had an original manual for the converted 1916's & prominently on the front cover it says the caliber is 7.62 NATO. My 1916 came with a tag from Century arms that says it's in .308 win. & that led me to fire .308 factory ammo. I had no problems till I got worried from others posts. My rifle has been semi-retired & I do shoot her but mostly using handloaded cast lead bullets. I'm sure my handloads are well below 40,000 psi. NATO ammo in my 1916 shoots horrible groups as the barrel is well worn. The cast bullets do alot better.

qajaq · 10-11-2007, 05:52 AM

Quote:

I think I'll leave them alone.

Tom, after reading roughly 2 zillion posts about that rifle I came to the same conclusion that you just did.

mtnboomer · 10-12-2007, 08:26 PM

I've had one for several years (mine is a 'sanitary' model with no markings except ser. #). My opinion is that they would make a fine boat paddle. It has the muzzle blast of a howitzer and the kick of a bee-stung mule! I intend to eventually sporterize it into a .257 Roberts carbine for my wife.

There is a story (I have read it in several places including Shotgun News) that says these '93 Mauser rifles were not actually intended for the 7.62 NATO but, as polishshooter indicated, for the 7.62 CETME which used a reduced pressure loading with a 112-gr. bullet. This would stand to reason as a load of this type would reduce muzzle flash and recoil significantly. However, I do not ever remember seeing loading data for the CETME round published. Even loading manuals usually only go as low as 120 to 130 bullets.

Tom Militano · 10-15-2007, 05:04 PM

My opinion is that they would make a fine boat paddle. It has the muzzle blast of a howitzer and the kick of a bee-stung mule! I intend to eventually sporterize it into a .257 Roberts carbine for my wife.

About a week ago I actually shot one, 2 rounds only, that a friend has and you couldn't give me one of them. Thanks for all the replies.

08-17-2007, 03:03 PM	#1
Tom Militano Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Jacksonville, AL Posts: 1,255	Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win Does anyone have any opinions on these or own one? Are they .308 Winchester or 7.62x51 NATO? They are different rounds. -->

08-17-2007, 03:49 PM	#2
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win Tom, funny you should ask.... We just got through talking about this in "Ask the experts?" under the thread about the CETME rifle in 7.62x51... But here is the link you should see, it explains it pretty well... http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...nato/index.asp The short answer is the 7.62 CETME round is what the Guardia Civil mauser was made or converted to fire, but it's just a little less than the NATO round, the CETME round produced around 42000 CUP, but the original 7x57 Mauser the rifle was designed to fire produced around 46000 CUP so the general consensus is that it would be OK to shoot the 7.62 NATO at around 50000 cup but not the .308 Winchester which AVERAGES around 62000 cup....plus chamber dimensions are slightly differenet too, to make it easier for NATO rifles to fire ammo made in different countries, which means that extra pressure does things it wouldn't do in a tight commercial .308 Win chamber.... Some (stupid?) people DO shoot .308 Winchester through them successfully, you can read guys on the net claiming that all the time, but the PROBLEM is that due to differences in military chambers, AND the softer metal in those Mausers, eventually will cause headspace issues, both in the CHAMBER and with the BOLT head, possibly over a long time, but also possibly QUICKLY and unexpectedly, and since most catastrophic failures by Mausers are DIRECTLY preceded by excessive headspace indications....so you can see the issue....a potential timebomb... So stick to the NATO rounds, OR light .308 reloads, while you should not have a problem, still check for excessive headspace even then... Which is the MAIN reason I prefer my Milsurps to shoot RIMMED rounds....and the MAIN reason I think Mosins are superior to Mausers at least as BATTLE rifles....headspace is RARELY an issue, and you do NOT hear of Mosins or Enfields blowing up in "normal use," with the ammo for which they were CHAMBERED.....even HANDLOADS with higher pressure...(HHhmmmm, Mauser guys USUALLY like GLOCKS too, don't they....HHHHHmmmmm....)and even if they ever WOULD develop headspace issues (They RARELY do....) it's MUCH easier to spot, just by inspecting the last quarter inch or so of the case right in front of the RIM.... I owned one of those Mausers for a short while but couldn't bring myself to fire it and sold it, which was probably a good thing, because at the TIME I didn't know there WAS a difference between the .308 Win and the NATO round.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. Last edited by polishshooter; 08-17-2007 at 03:51 PM..

08-17-2007, 06:11 PM	#3
Tom Militano Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Jacksonville, AL Posts: 1,255	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win I think I'll leave them alone. Thanks for the reply.

08-22-2007, 09:33 AM	#4
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win Yeah, Tom, a LONG time ago I put a Spanish M1916 Mauser in ".308" on my wish list, thinking it would be light and handy and easy to find ammo for, but when the time came and I actually BOUGHT one I couldn't bring myself to shoot it....even though at the time I didn't FULLY understand the difference in ammo, I had heard ENOUGH discussion to make me wonder, and that small ring Mauser just didn't seem all that "robust...." The good news is I got my money out of it without much trouble.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

08-25-2007, 08:39 PM	#5
RamblerReb Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win Just my .02, but I also had one of these and, while I never had any problems with lug setback or other pressure issues, that thing shot about five feet high at 50 yards, not to mention kicking like a damn mule. I think it was Ackley or maybe Hatcher who said "I am only interested in accurate rifles." Amen. I got rid of it.

09-22-2007, 08:09 AM	#6
CCubed V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Near Harrisburg, PA Posts: 62	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win Wise move, Tom. Stay away!!! (Unless you're going to hand-load 7.62x51 brass to 7x57 Mauser pressure specs.) A decently priced FR8, though, I'd pick up...or have the headspace checked first, then buy (if it's not excessive). The 98 action can handle 7.62 NATO ammo, by all accounts. __________________ Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk I* Yugo M48A Hungarian M44 M91/30, 1941, Izhevsk WASR-10 KAR 98k - bcd 41 - byf 43 - 237, 1939 FR-7

09-22-2007, 01:38 PM	#7
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win WOW, I just learned a lot! A quick reference of my re-loads has revealed that I have kept mine under42,000 CUP's. BUT I may keep an eye out for 762 surplus ammo, since I rarely shoot mine. I kept my loads down out of respect for 60+ year old metallurgy, and it looks like I may have dodged a bullet....err... bolt.....

09-24-2007, 02:19 PM	#8
kfb2b V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 56	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win I have had one for more than 10 years and have fired it extensively, but I know what I have in my hands and treat it accordingly. there are guys who hear "mauser" and think they have a cheap way to make it a 300mag. I took the ooposite, and have mine loaded to 30-40 krag velocity/pressure, and the old girl can sure sling 'em. bear in mind that until recently the largest elk ever taken was with a 30-40, so it is plenty good enough. Just know what you have and use it accordingly, an you will have a fine rifle

09-24-2007, 08:05 PM	#9
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win This topic was discussed on another forum where one of the guys had an original manual for the converted 1916's & prominently on the front cover it says the caliber is 7.62 NATO. My 1916 came with a tag from Century arms that says it's in .308 win. & that led me to fire .308 factory ammo. I had no problems till I got worried from others posts. My rifle has been semi-retired & I do shoot her but mostly using handloaded cast lead bullets. I'm sure my handloads are well below 40,000 psi. NATO ammo in my 1916 shoots horrible groups as the barrel is well worn. The cast bullets do alot better.

10-12-2007, 08:26 PM	#11
mtnboomer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Oklahoma by birth. America by the grace of God. Posts: 649	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win I've had one for several years (mine is a 'sanitary' model with no markings except ser. #). My opinion is that they would make a fine boat paddle. It has the muzzle blast of a howitzer and the kick of a bee-stung mule! I intend to eventually sporterize it into a .257 Roberts carbine for my wife. There is a story (I have read it in several places including Shotgun News) that says these '93 Mauser rifles were not actually intended for the 7.62 NATO but, as polishshooter indicated, for the 7.62 CETME which used a reduced pressure loading with a 112-gr. bullet. This would stand to reason as a load of this type would reduce muzzle flash and recoil significantly. However, I do not ever remember seeing loading data for the CETME round published. Even loading manuals usually only go as low as 120 to 130 bullets. __________________ The cost of freedom, is eternal vigilance. The cost of bondage, is your life. - mtnboomer Support the Second Amendment - Join the NRA! > http://www.nra.org < Oklahoma State - #1 - GO POKES!

10-15-2007, 05:04 PM	#12
Tom Militano Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Jacksonville, AL Posts: 1,255	Re: Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser - Cal. .308 Win My opinion is that they would make a fine boat paddle. It has the muzzle blast of a howitzer and the kick of a bee-stung mule! I intend to eventually sporterize it into a .257 Roberts carbine for my wife. About a week ago I actually shot one, 2 rounds only, that a friend has and you couldn't give me one of them. Thanks for all the replies.