So your anti war?

[Appliancedude]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

Deputy,

If you'll call me collect when these young commies will be protesting in your town next, I'll be happy to travel there and beat the hell out of them for you.

Ditto that.

Give me my own mask and a baseball bat. BATTER UP! These f*@kers come to my town and I'll be the one going to jail. Burn my flag I beat your a$$.

[KJHB]

Originally Posted by satellite66

Clinton? How can anyone who owns a business and or guns even mention Clinton in a favorable manor?
Like every other liberal dem thought the answer to all problems was to tax those that produce. Like every other liberal dem he wanted to take away our constitutional rights. Not like liberals portray the Patriot Act and FISA but in a very real and tangible sense. It was only the wisdom of the American people putting Newt and the GOP in office that stopped Clinton from turning this nation into France.
I would also like to point out that whatever problems there are will not be solved by a liberal democrat.

And the problems we have will not be solved by a so called conservative republican. Carter started FISA to protect our civil liberties, you know those items we have had wars about, and I bet you really like them. It was put into place to protect us from warrentless servalence so that the governement had/has to get a warrent to listen to our conversations. It is fast and does not have to be done before listening. Yet the Bush administration, does not even want to be bothered with that. The Patriot act vilolates the constitution against illegal searchs, but I guess you do not mind that either and you think the Dems are the only ones taking away our constitutional rights?? Look again. I am not willing to trade some rights for others, nor am I will to give any away. While Clinton was by no means perfect, yes he has tried to remove our gun right and other items which I am free to protest about, yet were not in dept so bad that it will cause long term dept to our kids and our economy. Bush has given tax credits to companies that export jobs to other countries. Bush's tax breaks help the rich not the middle class, that is were the true spending is.


We had a case here after the Madrid train bombing, a partial print came back on a lawyer from Oregon, Spain said it was not him, he could prove that it was not him, yet the Government seized his house, assets and drove him out of buisiness. Yet the Spanish government stated that it was not him, for they found better prints. Yet the government did not let up.

The republicans also want us to live in fear, now think about this. Prior to the last elections for Bush's second term, there were Terror Allerts about every two weeks, the month prior to the elections, we had them every few days. No hard evidence was ever given to this, just that "We think there is a threat in NJ" or some other place. The republican caucus based the election that you are only safe with us, that is why we have these allerts, yet after the election we have not had a single one, not even after the failed attempt of the fuel depot bombing 2 months ago. Plus why has the government disbanned the unit that was going after osama????? and after 6 years we can not find that SOB???? and btw, we did fund Osama, in the 80's (republican president) to fight against Iran and Iraq. Again I say this, there is no, let me repeat that NO president that is perfect and there can never be one. But we have to have on that fights for our liberty and not take it away under the deffinition of national security. We can not be the bully of the world, we must defend only what is right for the US.

Bush has change military doctrin from only attack those nations that attack the US, to the US will attack any nation that we see as a threat. Are own allies are turning away from us, why, because we are becoming the bully.

You might not like what I say, but that is the wonderful part of our nation, the first admendment "The freedom of speach". For people with the response of I will beat you up making these statements are thugs and are so abtuse in thinking to understand they are part of the problem.

[satellite66]

If you want someone to read what your writing don't start out with Carter as a saviour. Carter destroyed the CIA and gave us the modern terrorists we are facing today.
Again I say that we will not be saved by a liberal democrat from anything.
I'm not trying to start an argument but I can't understand how anyone who posts on a gun owners forum can support liberal dems. It is like the chickens supporting the fox. No good will come of it.

[satellite66]

I stand corrected. I have given it some thought and there are some problems that a liberal democrat can correct.
If you think that you have to much money in your paycheck a liberal dem will lessen your concern.
If you think there are to many babies being born then a liberal democrat will help.
If you think that to many people use guns to protect themselves then a liberal dem will assist you in getting them out of the hands of everyone.
If you think that you are entitled to everything from the government then a liberal democrat can make your dreams come true.

[KJHB]

Satellit,

I also never called Carter as my saviour, and if you think he started all this, then you better look again at Regan, he funded the Al Queda(fact), there are strong family ties from the Bush family to people we now call terorists and all in the name of oil.

I think you are missing what I am saying, I never said I was a liberal Dem. I said I was an independent, that will lean more towards a dem then a rep. I believe in the right to bear arms, I write my senetors and congresman frequently on that. I also believe in the womans right to have an abortion with out the government stepping in ( pesky so called liberal view). I bring up Polititions such as Clinton, Bush and Carter to make specific points. I also point out the fact many times, that they are not perfect and try to state that many times. As many posts have been made, they stand by one view and forget the rest of the person. I brought up FISA to make a point about Warrentless wire taps. I mention the President not to say he was perfect, yet to show how long this has been law. I bring up points to show that you can not be blind to one view, yet see all that is going on around you. You might think Bush is perfect, I don't. I am not willing to give up my rights to privacy just so I can be called a Patriot. Bush has pushed for this law that will enable the government to check medical records, library and credit card records, phone calls, mail and anything else they want to all in the name of protecting people. They do not have to have any reason more than we think he might have links to any form of terrorists. No proof, no evidence nothing. That is what is wrong. I forget the person that said something like "Those willing to give up some liberties for others, derserves non".



I will point out another fact, when Enron went south (a company I worked for) Bush said that he did not know anyone there. Yet being in oil in Texas, his company and family had holdings with Enron. Bush used Enrons company jet when on the campain trail. His father was in a birthday video for ken lay. Portland Gas and Electric was purchased by Enron, once things started to go bad the company locked out all employees from selling any stock they had in their 401k, yet the big corporate cheifs liquidated. So many people that were near retirement lost EVERYTHING they worked for, yet the government did little and dragged their feet to trial.

I bring to look at all sides, that is to me what a citizen is supposed to do. I do not have to be some red neck die hard republican to post here. I can be a Rep, dem, or ind. and it should not matter. I look at the rights we have from an open mind, I do not take a view on matters the same way the party I belong to. I make up MY mind for MYself and do not let party affiliation man date my view. I can find fault in all parties, each one has done good things, and bad. That is being a responsible citizen and reading many stories about a subject not just the spin I like. I do not follow, I try and lead. I have written Clinton saying how idiotic the gun laws are, and Bush on how he is supposed to server the people. One party is not better than the other, it has gotten so polerized in the past 20 years that only the the far right or left get the press.

I will make one point from your post, thinking if there are to many babies in the world the Democrates will help you. I believe in the right to choice. I also believe in teaching safe sex. Regan's Sergon General (R) stated that kids must be told about comdoms. This will not make them have more sex, yet it will help them have safer sex. Less pregnencies for kids, less STD's less dependence on welfare, less burden on the Medical system. I also look at it this way, if you don't believe in the abortion right, fine, that is YOUR right, I have the right to believe in it. So don't push your values on me, they are not better then mine. I ask you this also, do you drink? if so, what if I wanted to bring back proabition (conservative republican group)? Are you ok with my views saying that you can not buy any beer?

[satellite66]

You sure post like a liberal dem. Unless your like 10 yrs old anyone with any history understands that Carter bending over for Iran in 79 showed weakness. I'm sorry that Reagan defeating the Soviets was not enough for you. Considering he had to deal with a dem congress he did very well. He also kept Kahdaffi quiet for 20 yrs. Could he have done more? Yeah but no dem has done anything or will do anything.

[KJHB]

Originally Posted by satellite66

Yeah but no dem has done anything or will do anything.

Yes I guess that Kennedy, did not do anything did he, but then again, he only tried to keep us out of Vietnam, set up the space program and NASA, stopped Russia from putting more missles in Cuba. Didn't do much mow did he. If you want to call me a liberal Dem fine, at least I am not a conservative Republican that wants a sky rocket national defict, push our politics on every country, Invade nations that dont agree with us and willing to let our government take away our civil liberties. There have been many nations that have allowed this removal of civil liberties, German, during the 30's-40's Russia for most of the 20th century, Iran, Iraq, Sadia Arabia. But if you dont mind that, then too bad for you.

I hate a government that thinks they can see my medical, financial, phone records just to make sure that I am not a subversive with no proof or cause. Tell me and my wife that I must behave as a conservative Chirstian in order to be called a true American. I am Christian, and I don't need to have the government tell me how to live my life on a personal level.

Ignorance is bliss, when you can not find fault in the Republican Party for anything. Just remember this, be carefull of the coolaid. It might not be what you think

Plus Sat, I noticed, you are not fighting the facts that I put down, just other points that can be brought up. I say Carter and FISA, nothing about IRAN and that failure. I bring up Regan and Al Qauda, but you only bring up Kadafi. I have stated many times, that NO president is perfect. A nation that only has one Party is a dictatorship, our founding fathers, demanded multiple parties.

But then I guss you dont mind giving up some of those consitutional rights, you know free speach and some of those others that protect our civil liberties.

Least you forget, Regan was willing to trade arms with Iran, oh and just in case you did not know, one of the key people in the ambassy hostages in Iran. He has a new title in Iran's government they call him President. So using your logic in calling me a liberial who thinks Carter is my saviour, that means you support terrorist.

BTW I am 40, and I will not drink the coolaid from any party, so feel free to have mine

[durk]

Originally Posted by KJHB

Satellit,

I also believe in the womans right to have an abortion with out the government stepping in ( pesky so called liberal view).

I also look at it this way, if you don't believe in the abortion right, fine, that is YOUR right, I have the right to believe in it. So don't push your values on me, they are not better then mine.

Some people believe that abortion is MURDER! (pesky so called Conservative view) Hmmmm, the libs want to outlaw guns because they kill people. The conservatives want to outlaw abortion to save the unborne. Yeh, those conservatives are just awful.

[satellite66]

I have to admit that I only read a few lines of your posts because they are just DNC talking points and I could hear the same thing from the MSM.
I don't beleive that any "modern" dem has done or will do anything positive for America. Unless you consider higher taxes and more restrictions on gun owners positive.
I would suggest since you have only been posting here a month that you do a search for posts with the word alert in them. You will see how much positive stuff dems are doing for gun owners as we speak.

[KJHB]

Originally Posted by satellite66

I have to admit that I only read a few lines of your posts because they are just DNC talking points and I could hear the same thing from the MSM.
I don't beleive that any "modern" dem has done or will do anything positive for America. Unless you consider higher taxes and more restrictions on gun owners positive.
I would suggest since you have only been posting here a month that you do a search for posts with the word alert in them. You will see how much positive stuff dems are doing for gun owners as we speak.

Sat, thank you for admitting that you only read the first few lines, and go from there. I agree that any Modern dem has not done much, a few things yes but not much, and that goes to the Rep. I battle the governemt here in Portland, because they take money away and give it to groups that are supporting illegel alians, I fight against higher tax's and tax breaks that only help Large corporate America, small business such as myself get raked over the coals, while large ones get breaks for taking business over seas. I beleive the the right to own a gun and defend ones self and that the governemt should not invade my civil liberties. I think that lawyers have made it to easy for criminals and that if you are a law abiding citizen you get screwd to the wall in defending yourself. I go after both Dem's and Rep. and if you read my posts I think they are both at fault and forget that they are here to SERVE the people not just a select few. I always want to hear people views, I try to be open to them and see it from there side, so I can make up my mind.

I fight for my gun rights and I think that the dem's are screwed in the head on that issue BIG time. I fight to own a gun, and will not give up that right no matter what.

That is why I stated in many posts that I am an independent. But I will fight all parties and issues that I do not agree with.

Durk, I brought up abortion because it is a hot ticket item. I point this out because I believe in a womans right to choice. I am not saying that you have to believe that, just dont push your values on to me. I respect your views, respect mine. We can debat the issue, yet in the end they are mine or your views.

[satellite66]

The trick is to get the best combo. Dems are not offering anything. Class warfare, increased taxes and punishing those that produce are losers to me. Combine that with being antigun and your done in my book. Pubs maybe lost on immigration and they spend to much time trying to appease "independents" that are at their heart dems. Pubs need to get back to conservative ideals instead of pandering to those who sit on the fence.

[liberty4all]

There was never a good war, or a bad peace.

Even peace may be purchased at too high a price.

Everyone should be anti-war. Real people on both sides die. The only "winners" are those who start it and those who profit from it.
as this thread is about war let's examine Iraq. We can (and did) handily defeat their armies. now what? as a democracy we cannot successfully occupy any country that doesn't want us there. We can't GIVE them democracy, they have to want it. As a democracy we can''t force them to do much of anything without using tactics like ww2 germany did to it's occupied countries. This would and should bring down our own democracy.

Things to think about:

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Anybody remember the Geneva Convention? It is a reciprocal agreement that our goverment doesn't think we need anymore.

Before the war in Iraq how many times did you stay home: instead of going out because you were afraid of terrorist attack?

The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.

I am actually making less money than I did 15 yrs ago, but don't worry because exxon/mobile still made $89 billion AFTER hiding all they could.

We can't have congressional oversite because of security reasons.
Just WHOSE security? what (or who) is the goverment afraid of?

The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.

The people in the pics of the first post, in very simple terms are a bunch of idiots. Anyone who would physically hurt them is also an idiot. Which one is more dangerous?

All these quote's were made by the same radical crackpot.

Can you name him?





Benjamin Franklin

P.S. to the best of my knowlege the only two people in the country that were pissed off the day we invaded Iraq included
myself and an elected leader who was severely denounced by the republicans and labeled a traitor, un-American, etc. (Everyone needs to be good little nazi and do what they're told)

[satellite66]

Just who is the Geneva convention reciprocal with? I don't recall the press release saying it was Iraq, Iran or Al Queda?
Iraq has never been a democracy so that means it can never be? How will the people in Iraq know what it is?
Your claim to be making less money than 15 yrs ago. Then all I can say it must be Bushs and Exxons fault. Rest assured that if the dems take over completely you will make less money also. Then again you may be okay because you won't have the right to guns to spend money on.
We seem to have moved far from the original topic. The topic was that if your anti war you must be glad to have these folks as your peers.

[noslolo]

Wow this thread got deep quick!!! I will have to be on my toes from now on. I guess it's not your fault that I decided to read this at 3am.

[Luke]

If I saw this going on I would be quite tempted to throw a couple water balloons full of lighter fluid at them and teach them a lesson

[satellite66]

Just a little update. The surge is working as evidenced by the lack of coverage in the MSM. Although Jack our marines are murderers Murtha did come out and say the surge was working. Of course he then came back after getting spanked by Pelosi and qualified his statement. Harry Reid also made a statement which shows how far the dems are invested in defeat, by saying the surge is not working right after Murtha said it was.
As another side note I just heard that General Giap not sure of the spelling came out and said that the US had won in Vietnam and they were ready to surrender but our media and the antiwar crowd gave them hope and did more to help the North than they knew. Because of politics we failed to seize on our success. Which party then as now is doing everything it can to help us lose? I'll give you a hint its the one that wants to cut off funding now as they did then.
The difference is that in Vietnam we had little fear that they were going to come to America and blow stuff up. Can we expect the same from the islamic terror crowd?

Here is a quote
"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender. It was the same at the battle of Tet. You defeated us. We knew it. We thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice that your media was definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefield. We were ready to surrender. You had won."
General Giaps memoirs