Firearms with a history

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

I even have a few British silver coins minted during the Middle Ages. One I am particularly fond of was minted during the reign of Edward I Longshanks, he of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce fame.

You seem to have quite the collection there Pistol. I also have several Roman coins along with some Roman Military relics, mainly phallic strap weights. Those Romans! I can just sit for hours holding those coins thinking about the Romans two centuries ago who lost them. Though it's probably a bit late to return them now.

East Anglia, where I now live is rich in artifacts and the metal detector guys are kept pretty busy. A friend has a small shop and sell's many of the recovered items. I am not sure, but think larger finds are government property and are subject to some finders reward. I think small finds are yours, though may look into that a little.

Coins in poor condition are plentiful and as I said, we have many. I really have recently seen a bucket full! If you like the middle ages it may interest you to know I have Crossbow bolts from 14th / 15th century. I recently gave a couple to an archaeoligist friend in Tucson, so they might compare European bolts with some of the Spanish ones they have recovered in Southern Arizona.

[Enfield]

Hi Tranter
Just to get you even more unsettled, I thought that I would tell you my story. I moved out to NZ from the UK 5 years ago, I used to do a bit of shooting in the UK but after the pistol bans when they chopped up my Broomhandle Mauser and Ruger Blackhawk I decided just to concentrate just on antique weapons (No licence or harrasment from the authorities required).

I have a reasonable collection including Brown Bess, Two band Enfield, Snider and some other pistols and swords going back to the late 1700's

Anyway having moved to NZ I have found it great for shooting with many enthusiasts around including a great Antique and Historic Arms Association (they have a good web site)

The gun laws here are great and you are not looked down upon - You can get a basic licence really easily here and that allows you have most shotguns and rifles including all the old WWII stuff (I have just picked up a nice No4 Mk 1*). However you can easily upgrade to a collector licence that lets you have anything including full auto etc. Now you can have it all in working order and buy as much ammo as you like but are not allowed to shoot it - well you can guess the rest!!! ha ha

I have lots of friends who have Brens, Sterlings etc and saw a chap at the gun club with a .55" Boys Anti Tank gun, I have to say that made a hell of a bang.

I live just out of town and have a couple of acres of land am even allowed to shoot at home, so I have made a suppressor for one of my 22's and come home and have a blast after a hard day at work - great stress relief

As you can guess we love NZ and have no plans to return to the UK - you must come out for a holiday sometime - you won't want to go back

All the best

Enfield in NZ

[TranterUK]

Enfield, dont tempt me. OK you already did. No kidding by the way, I am giving re location serious thought. Not so much for me but for my kids future.
The government here are doing a great job, of screwing us.

As it happens one of my brothers worked in NZ some years ago and spoke very highly of both the country and the people.

Heres a thought, thirty odd years ago, among other things I would check firearms for sale abroad. I remember a chap from NZ, I think but cant be sure I checked out either a Bren or MG34 for him. (condition, working order etc.)
I remember him as a fairly tall, thin chap with wavy hair. I know there's a lot of folks down there but I bet if hes still around shooting people might know him?

I even had a neighbour go to NZ when I lived in St Albans. I remember I fixed his Colt 1911 A1 for him just before he left. All it needed was a new slide stop. Nice guy.

Forgive me, it's 22.10, 'the management' is in Brazil for a few weeks and there is nothing on the telly. I really should clean out a rifle. It's been a few days and I shot soviet surplus 7.62x 39 through it. It's probably rotting as I type.

See Ya Enfield, good name by the way.

[Enfield]

Hi Tranter
First I must say that you also have a great user name ha ha

I don't think I know the chap that you are talking about but as you say there are lots of people here.

I live up the top of the north island however there are lots of shooters in Auckland which is about 2/12 hours south of me.

I went to a big arms auction in Auckland last weekend, It was amazing to see all the gems on offer. You don't get so much older pre 1900 stuff here but you do get lots of WWI and WWII stuff. There were a few Thompsons, AK's and the like up for sale and some other real treasures including a Vickers complete with tripod, a Lanchester, a tiny little Villa Perosa double machine gun (look it up - I had never seen one before). There were also a couple of early Lewis guns, but the star of the auction was a pair of cased Purdey duellers that went for nearly $40,000 - a bit too much for me ha ha.

I still keep in touch with friends in the Uk who keep me up to date with the situation and I can honestly say that our life is so much better over here. Even though we both had good jobs in the uk, I was an engineer in Aerospace and my wife is in accounts it was still hard to get on.

If you have any real interest in NZ or I can be of any help please ask, I would be only too pleased to help another pom escape ha ha

Anway I have to go now, Just got a new Walther G22 and a good condition No4 Mk1* this week and it's now Sat morning so I need to make some noise.

Cheers

Enfield

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Enfield

First I must say that you also have a great user name ha ha

Indeed he does, though I must admit I am assuming that "Tranter" in this case is a reference to the revolver designs (and company) of William Tranter (1816-1890). His revolvers were much esteemed by Confederate officers during the American Civil War as highly reliable. I recall seeing one in a museum once upon a time that was 24 bore (.577 caliber). Now that is a rather large chunk of lead!

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Indeed he does, though I must admit I am assuming that "Tranter" in this case is a reference to the revolver designs (and company) of William Tranter (1816-1890). His revolvers were much esteemed by Confederate officers during the American Civil War as highly reliable. I recall seeing one in a museum once upon a time that was 24 bore (.577 caliber). Now that is a rather large chunk of lead!

Morning all,
For those who dont know 'bore' relates to the number of lead balls that will fit the barrel and equal one pound weight. Twelve bore = 12 lead balls = 1 lb. It is a very old system that I believe goes back at least a couple of hundred years. You call it Gauge.

The old 19th c. British revolvers used bore rather than calibre. Mr Colts .44 was about he same as a 54 bore. The larger revolvers were 38 bore, about .5". I fired an original 38 bore percussion revolver once. Fantastic. The .577 mentioned by Pistol came later.

William Tranter was old and innovative English gun manufacturer in the 19th c. Tranter himself came up with a double trigger revolver. The idea used a hundred years later by the P7 I think.

The name was re born in the 1980s and the firm made semi auto pistols in 9mm and later .40 S&W. There was a good review in the G and A Annual '85.
Also an article in American Handgunner Mag. The century pistol, as It was named. Serial No.1 rests in the Royal Armouries Collection. How do I know so much about it? Why I was part of it.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

For those who dont know 'bore' relates to the number of lead balls that will fit the barrel and equal one pound weight. Twelve bore = 12 lead balls = 1 lb. It is a very old system that I believe goes back at least a couple of hundred years. You call it Gauge.

True, Tranter. Interestingly enough, we still use the term "bore" when referring to the little .410 shotgun, though "gauge" is used for all other shotgun barrel sizes.

Ever see one of those Hawdah pistols the British used in India during the late 19th, early 20th centuries, Tranter? As I understand it, the Hawdah was used as a last-ditch big-bore defense pistol against tiger attack as the British Raj moseyed along on elephant back (in a hawda, which is where the pistol got its name), sipping his gin and tonic.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Ever see one of those Hawdah pistols the British used in India during the late 19th, early 20th centuries, Tranter? As I understand it, the Hawdah was used as a last-ditch big-bore defense pistol against tiger attack as the British Raj moseyed along on elephant back (in a hawda, which is where the pistol got its name), sipping his gin and tonic.

Not the way I heard it Pistol.

I have been told the howdah pistols, most often a short barrel side by side in .577 or similar was for killing the elephant with shots to the back of the head if it went mad with people on the back. It's enough to make you spill your G and T!

[artabr]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Not the way I heard it Pistol.

I have been told the howdah pistols, most often a short barrel side by side in .577 or similar was for killing the elephant with shots to the back of the head if it went mad with people on the back. It's enough to make you spill your G and T!

I would think that a couple of .577 slugs to the back of the head would do the trick.

Art

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by artabr

I would think that a couple of .577 slugs to the back of the head would do the trick.

Art

It's not the recoil of the weapon, art, but the sudden stop when the elephant drops dead. Of course, it is also true that tigers were known to jump into the howda in search of lunch (doubtless in search of a nice gin and tonic as well), which did tend to create a tad bit of havoc. I am certain, however, that those British Raj types handled things with great aplomb.

[artabr]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

It's not the recoil of the weapon, art, but the sudden stop when the elephant drops dead. Of course, it is also true that tigers were known to jump into the howda in search of lunch (doubtless in search of a nice gin and tonic as well), which did tend to create a tad bit of havoc. I am certain, however, that those British Raj types handled things with great aplomb.

Pistol, it kind of sounds like you're saying the "howda" was a large picnic basket.


Art

[TranterUK]

I am going to get to the bottom of this Howdah pistol thing tomorrow. I shall report back.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I am going to get to the bottom of this Howdah pistol thing tomorrow. I shall report back.

Here is one place to look, Tranter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howdah_pistol

[Xracer]

Well, my "historical treasure" is an all original Colt M1911, made in early (maybe March or April) 1918. According to the (now gone...and very much missed) "Springfield" site, it's within 18 serial numbers of one shipped to the 27th Infantry of the U.S. Army's Siberian Expeditionary Force.....so who knows....my 1911 might have been a part of the "Polar Bear Force".

If it was, hey, I live in Minn-eeeee-sota (Land of Frozen Lakes)....how apropos.

I've since found a nice 1918 Mills web belt, two Mills 1918 magazine pouches, a 1918 marked holster (can't read who made it), and 5 or 6 nice "lanyard loop" magazines.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Xracer

Well, my "historical treasure" is an all original Colt M1911, made in early (maybe March or April) 1918. According to the (now gone...and very much missed) "Springfield" site, it's within 18 serial numbers of one shipped to the 27th Infantry of the U.S. Army's Siberian Expeditionary Force.....so who knows....my 1911 might have been a part of the "Polar Bear Force".

A treasure indeed, X! Post a picture or two if you can. Do you still shoot the pistol, or just keep it as a collector piece?

[TranterUK]

I remember when in the US reading about some dope who decided to rob a store at pistol point. He was duly caught by the police getting away with a sum of money.

Turns out he was using an pristine Colt 1911 left to him by his father, and worth many times the proceeds of the robbery!

[artabr]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I remember when in the US reading about some dope who decided to rob a store at pistol point. He was duly caught by the police getting away with a sum of money.

Turns out he was using an pristine Colt 1911 left to him by his father, and worth many times the proceeds of the robbery!

Tranter, the sad thing is that its probably happened a lot more than anyone really knows.


Art

[TranterUK]

I used to be the proud owner of an original Brown Bess Flintlock Musket c.1800/1815. I had it hanging on the wall in my living room.

One day a policeman came to visit, this is normal here if you have a firearms licence. He took a long look at the Flintlock Musket and announced I should lock in the gunsafe. He went on to explain a criminal could steal it, saw the barrel down and use it in a robbery.

Needless to say I was speechless.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I used to be the proud owner of an original Brown Bess Flintlock Musket c.1800/1815. I had it hanging on the wall in my living room.

One day a policeman came to visit, this is normal here if you have a firearms licence. He took a long look at the Flintlock Musket and announced I should lock in the gunsafe. He went on to explain a criminal could steal it, saw the barrel down and use it in a robbery.

Needless to say I was speechless.

Did he ask you to lock up all your cricket bats too, Tranter? Dangerous things those cricket bats, all sorts of nefarious crimes are committed with cricket bats. One has only to view the Cambridge University Cricket Club matches for confirmation.

All kidding aside, an original Brown Bess would indeed be a treasure. It was the weapon that, in many ways, built the British Empire.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

All kidding aside, an original Brown Bess would indeed be a treasure. It was the weapon that, in many ways, built the British Empire.

Yes pistol, It was a treasure. In fact a Short Land Pattern if I remember correctly. And it had a bit of a mystery of it's own. A very professionally filled hole, c.half inch, in the stock, right through about 3" from the wrist towards the butt plate. The best theory I was given was that it may have spent time on a ship. The hole being for a rod to secure it in a rack. There was no evidence of this being the case though.

I sold it when I needed the money, along with a Sea Service Pistol, some dirks of the same period and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual watch I had been given. Pretty much the story of my life, up and down, up and bloody down.

Actually, I still have a British Royal Navy Cutlass, c.1810 or 1815. It's called the figure of eight pattern. Just holding it is a pleasure.

As for cricket Pistol, I'd rather be shooting.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Actually, I still have a British Royal Navy Cutlass, c.1810 or 1815. It's called the figure of eight pattern. Just holding it is a pleasure.

As for cricket Pistol, I'd rather be shooting.

Tranter, didn't the British government recently impose restrictions on ownership of knives as well as firearms? I think I read something about that.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Tranter, didn't the British government recently impose restrictions on ownership of knives as well as firearms? I think I read something about that.

Yes they did. Though we should separate ownership from carrying. As far as ownership your not allowed to purchase a knife if under 18 years of age.

As far a carrying your not allowed to carry in a public place any knife with a blade longer than 3" or any lock knife. So a small folder that wont lock the blade, you know the ones that spring closed on your fingers, there OK.

We do have a problem with young people carrying knives. Only yesterday a young girl in South London was stabbed to death and last week a young actor from the Potter movies died the same way. I know a lot of youngsters carry knives 'for protection'. My wife works for the 'Youth offending team' so I get to hear some horror stories.

Needless to say I do not approve, but feel further legislation will have little or no effect. The problems that need to be addressed are with our children, not the inanimate objects they choose to carry and sadly use.

This may surprise most on your side of the pond but we in the UK have a bigger problem, per capita, with youth violence and drunkenness than you do. We also have a Government who believe more and more legislation is the answer. We have a home secretary who should be saying 'do you want fries with that?' rather than making ever more ineffective laws.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Needless to say I do not approve, but feel further legislation will have little or no effect. The problems that need to be addressed are with our children, not the inanimate objects they choose to carry and sadly use.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Tranter. Outlawing a "thing" does very little, if anything, to curtail its improper use. A knife, like a firearm, is nothing more than a tool, an object that may be used or misused at the whim of the holder. Even if somehow the government could dispose of all knives in the hands of those under 18, what would stop them from simply sharpening a screwdriver or a file to replace the knife? For that matter, something as simple as a length of wire can be turned to deadly use easily enough, or so I was taught once upon a time, a long time ago. Should we outlaw screwdrivers, files, and bailing wire? That would seem to be nothing more than an absurdity, yet in the minds of the liberals, it's all for "the public good." Balderdash! Outlaw liberals instead of knives and we might get somewhere!